Moderators John317 Posted August 11, 2007 Moderators Posted August 11, 2007 You kill the debating and you will kill the forum. Many come to debate or to read the debates. I tend to agree. Most people who visit obviously don't take part but they learn from the evidence posted and from the responses of other people. No one is compelled to visit theads unless they choose to, but if we cut them off, we are denying people the right to express themselves and also denying readers the opportunity to learn from free exchanges of differing ideas. The bottom line, in my opinion, is that the participants respect each other and treat each other civilly, and as long as that standard is met, I see only good coming from such an exchange of views. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Clio Posted August 12, 2007 Posted August 12, 2007 Originally Posted By: Clio Quote: If I thought, however, that the threads were harmful to visitors or anyone on CA, I would stop taking part in them yesterday. They are. Give me an example of how they have been harmful. Be as specific as possible. No. I've already done that, as have numerous others. So far, you, Mr. Koot, and some others insist on trying to change my viewpoint, regardless of my feelings and insist my feelings are wrong. Well, they're not. And if you can't see the harm you do, I've finally reached a point where all I feel now is sorry for you. Quote A heart where He alone has first place.
LifeHiscost Posted August 12, 2007 Posted August 12, 2007 Luke 18:9-14 Then Jesus told this story to some who had great confidence in their own righteousness and scorned everyone else: “Two men went to the Temple to pray. One was a Pharisee, and the other was a despised tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed this prayer: ‘I thank you, God, that I am not a sinner like everyone else. For I don’t cheat, I don’t sin, and I don’t commit adultery. I’m certainly not like that tax collector! I fast twice a week, and I give you a tenth of my income.’ “But the tax collector stood at a distance and dared not even lift his eyes to heaven as he prayed. Instead, he beat his chest in sorrow, saying, ‘O God, be merciful to me, for I am a sinner.’ I tell you, this sinner, not the Pharisee, returned home justified before God. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.” At this point, not having perused all the posts, I'm not ready to say there are any here who hold themselves up to be more righteous than others. OTOH, debating can be exhausting and doesn't give me the spiritual rest received by sitting at the feet of Jesus through His Word. Sometimes debating does appear an exercise in futility, especially if one is only trying to make the Jesus they know personally, to be evident to others. That perception of some can be based on false doctrine or even misguided perceptions, and can lead to a circuitous route for some, who just wish to know the Master and how best to relate to Him. However, if one is reading posts with the desire to find the Fountain of Living Waters, Jesus will help them to separate the chaff from the wheat. That is one reason why I love to spend time with the entirety of the Word. There is no chaff, though I might mistake some Scripture as a result of personal bent. "But He answered and said, "It is written, ' MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'" Matthew 4:4 NASB Emphasis their's LHC "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself." John 7:17 KJV Regards!! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Moderators John317 Posted August 12, 2007 Moderators Posted August 12, 2007 ...At this point, not having perused all the posts, I'm not ready to say there are any here who hold themselves up to be more righteous than others. OTOH, debating can be exhausting and doesn't give me the spiritual rest received by sitting at the feet of Jesus through His Word. Sometimes debating does appear an exercise in futility, especially if one is only trying to make the Jesus they know personally, to be evident to others... Agreed. That is why earlier I wrote the following two paragraphs: I am opposed to debates in the true sense of the word. In a debate the whole purpose is to win rather than to learn the truth. In a debate, people's desire to win often-- even usually-- causes them to twist the truth or state half-truths, etc. Debates don't arrive at truth so much as they show who is best at debate. One is plainly not the same as the other. It's all about the art of persuasion, not the discovery of truth. Anyone who has studied rhetoric knows this, because all of the great teachers of rhetoric taught these principles. I see a difference between "debates" and dialoguing or having a conversation or exchange with someone about two different viewpoints. It is more like what takes place in Plato's dialogues. It is called a dialectic, which just simply means people are questioned and answers given, then questioned again, etc. Dialectics can continue for quite a while, a process which admittedly may bore or tire some people and which requires a great deal of perseverence and passion about the subject in order to pursue it to the conclusion. ---(Fortunately, no one is forced to read anything they don't want to. If I don't like a thread or a post, I don't even think of telling people to stop expressing themselves. I simply go to a different post or thread. It is not necessary to please everyone or even please half the people in order for others to have a right to express their views. I defend the right of anyone, liberal or conservative, to express their view as long as they treat others respectfully and civilly.)--- Debate most often generates more heat than light. The heat-- i.e., anger-- drives the Holy Spirit away from the discussion. For these reasons, then, I believe dialogues are the best way to arrive at the truth, rather than by debate. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
LifeHiscost Posted August 12, 2007 Posted August 12, 2007 Quote: If I thought, however, that the threads were harmful to visitors or anyone on CA, I would stop taking part in them yesterday. They are. One viewpoint does not a consensus make, and while some times the more passionate posts can be very frustrating and lengthy to the point of (dare I say it) boredom, as I recall, even when we disagree with someone, Jesus asks us to let the tares grow with the wheat. Who knows. Maybe the stronger issue being referred to by the Lord of Glory is that the tares will be converted by close association with the wheat, before the final reaping ends. "Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." Matthew 13:30 KJV Regards!! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Moderators John317 Posted August 12, 2007 Moderators Posted August 12, 2007 Originally Posted By: John317 Give me an example of how they have been harmful. Be as specific as possible. [/quote'] No. I've already done that, as have numerous others. So far, you, Mr. Koot, and some others insist on trying to change my viewpoint, regardless of my feelings and insist my feelings are wrong. Well, they're not. And if you can't see the harm you do, I've finally reached a point where all I feel now is sorry for you. OK. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
melvin mccarty Posted August 12, 2007 Posted August 12, 2007 Allways the last word even if just two letters. mel Quote
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted August 12, 2007 Members Posted August 12, 2007 Maybe with some of the longer posts that seem to drag on forever, Stan could install an *Insta-Thread-Lockdown* where the thread locks itself for a specified time; the errant one's computer plays the theme song from Bonanza a half dozen times, and the offending poster must send Stan a coupon for pizza. The member will then be placed on the hot air list, not to be confused with the bovine methane problem. After a brief hiatus, the member can come back to his/her computer and try it again. Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
LifeHiscost Posted August 12, 2007 Posted August 12, 2007 No problem with debating IF it is labelled as a debate and proper debating rules are followed including judges and a winner decided. BUT do we need a "discussion" that goes on for umpteen pages using debating tactics? I think not. mel I understand there is an ignore button somewhere in the protocol of CA. I've never used it as I think it rather rude not to let other people have the freedom of expression that I enjoy myself. OTOH if there are those who find others in the body of believers, or even those looking to believe, insufferable, why not just use the ignore button. But then, of course, we couldn't be the winner of the debate, could we? "Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you... Why not rather be wronged? " 1 Cor 6:7 NASB Regards!! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Moderators John317 Posted August 12, 2007 Moderators Posted August 12, 2007 Allways the last word even if just two letters. mel Who said that was the last word anyway? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
LifeHiscost Posted August 12, 2007 Posted August 12, 2007 I found the button! Could you tell me where it is and how to use it. If I don't get an answer to this I'll know I'm on the list. h5 Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Stan Posted August 12, 2007 Author Posted August 12, 2007 To ignore someone click on their profile, and look for the middle option.. Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com
Moderators lazarus Posted August 12, 2007 Moderators Posted August 12, 2007 The wierd thing about debating on this forum is that the people who disgree with me are always wrong! It happens every time.!!!!! Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein
Moderators John317 Posted August 12, 2007 Moderators Posted August 12, 2007 The wierd thing about debating on this forum is that the people who disgree with me are always wrong! It happens every time.!!!!! If people really take seriously what the other person is saying, and if the conversation goes on long enough, he will find himself rethinking things and making adjustments and changes in his own thinking. Maybe he will decide he needs to use different words or appoach things differently. At the very least, even if he ends up thinking the other person is wrong, he has learned to understand how someone else views the topic. Either way, he is gaining insights and knowledge that he otherwise wouldn't have. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
LifeHiscost Posted August 13, 2007 Posted August 13, 2007 To ignore someone click on their profile, and look for the middle option.. Seems like a reasonable option for those who want more control of CA as well as other posters. "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men." Romans 12:18 KJV Peace!! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Amelia Posted August 13, 2007 Posted August 13, 2007 Quote: The wierd thing about debating on this forum is that the people who disgree with me are always wrong! It happens every time.!!!!! Quote <p><span style="color:#0000FF;"><span style="font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-style:italic;">"Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you."</span></span> Eph 4:29</span><br><br><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/gizmotimetemp_both/US/OR/Fairview.gif" alt="Fairview.gif"> Fairview Or</p>
Moderators lazarus Posted August 13, 2007 Moderators Posted August 13, 2007 There's a big difference to challenging someone's viewpoint with debate vs challenging them to a cyber duel. Duels hurt, maim, or kill. Debates are not (or should not be) toxic. I think there's been too many duels here lately. Just imho. **steps out of thread** Cyber duel is a good phrase. I get the impression with some folk that winning the argument is the whole point. If that is the attitude that an individual has there is going to be conflict and destructive ones at that. There are some people on CA, and its a few in my opinion, who are arrogant and love the sound of their own keyboard. CA is a reflection of the real world, workplaces, churches, homes. There are wonderful people, messed up people, peacemakers. Debate will always occurr when there are people coming together. Its a sign of healthy creative environment. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein
Amelia Posted August 13, 2007 Posted August 13, 2007 Quote: I get the impression with some folk that winning the argument is the whole point Bingo was his nameo Quote <p><span style="color:#0000FF;"><span style="font-weight:bold;"><span style="font-style:italic;">"Do not use harmful words, but only helpful words, the kind that build up and provide what is needed, so that what you say will do good to those who hear you."</span></span> Eph 4:29</span><br><br><img src="http://banners.wunderground.com/weathersticker/gizmotimetemp_both/US/OR/Fairview.gif" alt="Fairview.gif"> Fairview Or</p>
there buster Posted August 13, 2007 Posted August 13, 2007 Debates are not the problem. I cannot recall ever seeing a real debate here. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell
Moderators John317 Posted August 13, 2007 Moderators Posted August 13, 2007 Quote: I get the impression with some folk that winning the argument is the whole point Bingo was his nameo That is the whole object of both sides in a true debate. It is not really to discover or show the truth but to win. Debating is often used as a training ground for lawyers to learn how to win court cases, and they use the same techniques: outsmart the opposing side, even if it means being dishonest. Ellen White was opposed to debate for that very reason. People are trained in debating to twist and hide the truth in order to win. It is just the opposite of what should happen when two or more people are discussing Bible truth. I find it hard to see how we can expect the Holy Spirit to be involved in them. A serious discussion and exchange is one thing; debating in the sense described above is something entirely different. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Stan Posted August 13, 2007 Author Posted August 13, 2007 One of the things that so many seem to remember about their childhood, growing up adventist, is that they remember people who acted as if it was more important to be right than to be kind... "if if had all knowledge and wisdom... and had not charity... then all is worthless... " the Jensen Paraphrase Version {off the top of his head...} Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com
Moderators John317 Posted August 14, 2007 Moderators Posted August 14, 2007 Originally Posted By: John317 Give me an example of how they have been harmful. Be as specific as possible. [/quote'] No. I've already done that, as have numerous others. So far, you, Mr. Koot, and some others insist on trying to change my viewpoint, regardless of my feelings and insist my feelings are wrong. Well, they're not. And if you can't see the harm you do, I've finally reached a point where all I feel now is sorry for you. You say you have already done that and that numerous others have done the same thing. Neither you nor anyone else on CA have done that in relation to my participation. What I am asking for is for you to show me evidence of where my "dialoguing" or "conversations" here have hurt people because of something either unkind or untruthful that I have written. It may be that others have not shared my opinion or conclusions on a matter, but that is not what I am talking about here. What I am asking for is evidence that the dialogue, or "debate," itself has been harmful to CA. The reason I am asking is that I need information to help me decide whether to continue dialoguing, i.e., debating, with people or whether to stop altogether. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted August 14, 2007 Administrators Posted August 14, 2007 ...What I am asking for is for you to show me evidence of where my "dialoguing" or "conversations" here have hurt people because of something either unkind or untruthful that I have written... Well... for starters, you have done so in your last post here on this topic: Quote: That is the whole object of both sides in a true debate. It is not really to discover or show the truth but to win. Debating is often used as a training ground for lawyers to learn how to win court cases, and they use the same techniques: outsmart the opposing side, even if it means being dishonest. Untrue that the object of real and responsible debating is to win at the expense of the truth or that lawyers are trained using such unethical techniques. But more to the point, it is a needless and hurtful slur to lawyers to suggest that lawyers are trained to win at all costs, including the use of dishonesty. It perpetuates an untrue and prejudicial stereotype about lawyers. Tom Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
Moderators John317 Posted August 14, 2007 Moderators Posted August 14, 2007 Tom, is it your experience then that debaters, and lawyers in particular, are taught only to tell the truth and to say what they really believe? Isn't much of the practice in debating a matter of getting used to taking either side on an issue and learning how to defend points of view you don't even believe in? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.