State of the Dead: A Dream of a Deceased Spouse

[aldona]

This is a real event that actually happened, but I'll keep it anonymous for now. I just want to get people's responses and advice on how to deal with this kind of issue.

A lady who is a devout Seventh-Day Adventist describes to you a dream she had, in which she saw her recently-deceased husband. In the dream she asked him if it was really him (reminding herself that she saw him die and saw him buried), and apparently satisfied that it is indeed her husband, proceeds to have a conversation with him and receive advice and counsel from him.

She ends the conversation with the comment "You are always to stay with me now and we will work together."

Later, she refers to the advice she received from her "husband" in this dream as a message from the Lord, and takes it as a clear instruction as to what to do and where to go.

What would you say to this lady? How does this fit in with what we believe about the state of the dead? How does this look, in the light of the Biblical instruction that we are to have no communication with the dead?

Remember, this is not a person from another Christian denomination or a recent convert, but a long-term Adventist member in good standing who would be very familiar with what our church teaches about the state of the dead.

What would you say? Any thoughts or comments?

aldona

[Stan]

Hmmm EGW had a similar dream about James...

[nuff sed]

Similiar???? It is exactly Sr. White's dream and the poster is well aware of this. It has been brought up here several times.

[annie]

Sooo.. wouldn't she, (EGW) be contradicting the very instruction she was given?

annie

[Jeannieb43]

Having a dream about someone isn't the same as actually seeing them. I often dream about persons who have died [my parents, my late husband, e.g.]. I believe dreams arise out of my own subconscious mind -- and it's usually based on a topic I'd been thinking about before I went to sleep.

I didn't know that Ellen White had had that same experience, but it doesn't have anything to do with whether or not she believed in earthly life after death. It only reflects the fact that she subconsciously knew what her husband James would probably say if she discussed with him the issue which was on her mind.

My 2 cents.

[Gregory Matthews]

Clue: Recent death.

This may not be the time for doctrine.

This may be a time to listen.

Encourage her to share her feelings of loss, and grief.

Listen and reflect back to her.

Play it by ear and see how it develops.

The time may (?) come for doctrine, that that time is probably not now. This is likely not to be a time for intellectual responses, but rather a time for emotions and feelings.

[Guest charis]

I vote for letting her think what she wants/needs to for now.

The absolute worst thing that people said to me when my father died was, "Remember, he's just sleeping."

[John317]

Totally agree.

The grave-site or hospital room where someone has died is no time or place for "correcting" anyone's theology about anything. It's a time for showing love and sympathy and giving emotional support.

However, one might pray that God will open the way up to Bible study on that topic at a later time with the grieving person.

Some members of my wife's family had had experiences with what they believed was the spirit of a dead relative coming to visit. As a result of these experiences, after my wife's brother-in-law died, my wife's sister said she was afraid that her dead husband might also appear to her. A few months after his death, my wife studied with her about the Bible's teaching on the topic and showed her that her husband was in the grave unconscious and waiting for the Second Coming. Since then, her sister has thanked my wife several times that she no longer needs to be afraid that her husband will visit her.

[John317]

This is a real event that actually happened, but I'll keep it anonymous for now. I just want to get people's responses and advice on how to deal with this kind of issue.

A lady who is a devout Seventh-Day Adventist describes to you a dream she had, in which she saw her recently-deceased husband. In the dream she asked him if it was really him (reminding herself that she saw him die and saw him buried), and apparently satisfied that it is indeed her husband, proceeds to have a conversation with him and receive advice and counsel from him.

She ends the conversation with the comment "You are always to stay with me now and we will work together."

Later, she refers to the advice she received from her "husband" in this dream as a message from the Lord, and takes it as a clear instruction as to what to do and where to go.

What would you say to this lady? How does this fit in with what we believe about the state of the dead? How does this look, in the light of the Biblical instruction that we are to have no communication with the dead?

Remember, this is not a person from another Christian denomination or a recent convert, but a long-term Adventist member in good standing who would be very familiar with what our church teaches about the state of the dead.

What would you say? Any thoughts or comments?

aldona

Yes, here's my comment:

Your "story" is undoubtedly referring to the passage quoted in Arthur White's biography, The Retirement Years, pp. 161-163.

In this letter to her son, Willie, Ellen White relates a dream in which her husband (who had died a month earlier) had been restored to life again and they talked together about their plans and burdens. Some people have referred to this dream as evidence that Ellen White was claiming to receive messages from the dead. Only someone who does not know or accept the Biblical teaching on the state of the dead could possibly misconstrue her dream as an actual conversation with her deceased husband, or believe that Ellen White thought that it was. See her clear teaching regarding the errors of spiritualism in "Can Our Dead Speak to Us?" chapter 34 of "The Great Controversy," pp. 551-562.

Such people have also ignored the fundamental difference between a "dream" and a "real" event. It is no different than if she had dreamed about a conversation between herself and a living contemporary, such as, Uriah Smith. In either case the conversation would not have occurred in reality, but in her dream. Ellen White certainly did not believe that she had actually been talking to her dead husband. She knew the dead know nothing. But even though it was a dream, i.e., not a real conversation between two real persons, Ellen White believed God was communicating a message to her, revealing her present duty regarding the concerns she had expressed to her son.

[Guest charis]

Did Ellen White believe that all of her dreams were God-sent?

Just wondering...

[John317]

Did Ellen White believe that all of her dreams were God-sent?

Just wondering...

No, she had regular dreams like all of us do. I'm sure John the Beloved and Daniel the prophet also had regular dreams.

[olger]

I vote for letting her think what she wants/needs to for now.

The absolute worst thing that people said to me when my father died was, "Remember, he's just sleeping."

Charis: I'm curious why you felt that this was unkind. Help me understand, please.

thanks,

olger

[Guest charis]

Originally Posted By: charis

...The absolute worst thing that people said to me when my father died was, "Remember, he's just sleeping."

Charis: I'm curious why you felt that this was unkind. Help me understand, please.

thanks,

olger

It was not *unkind* but I felt it was thoughtless....

Because Dad was cremated. He was not sleeping in a grave someplace. He is not sleeping anywhere. He is dust. Dust does not sleep. Living creatures sleep.

I don't know if this is SDA-approved or not, but my *take* on death is that a person's body returns to dust. But the part of the person that made him/her unique and wanted is being held in the hand of God - not as a living being or soul, but as a sleeping spirit. But that is not what people meant when they told me Dad was just sleeping. It still reduces me to tears when someone says that to me.

[aldona]

Thank you all for your input. Yes, you are all correct, I was referring to the dream that Ellen White had after James' death, and which was published in "The Retirement Years", p. 161-163.

Forgive me for the length, but here is the entire passage.

Quote:

Ellen Dreams of James Shortly After His Death

A few days since, I was pleading with the Lord for light in regard to my duty. In the night I dreamed I was in the carriage, driving, sitting at the right hand. Father was in the carriage, seated at my left hand. He was very pale, but calm and composed. "Why Father," I exclaimed, "I am so happy to have you by my side once more! I have felt that half of me was gone. Father, I saw you die; I saw you buried. Has the Lord pitied me and let you come back to me again, and we work together as we used to?"

He looked very sad. He said, "The Lord knows what is best for you and for me. My work was very dear to me. We have made a mistake. We have responded to urgent invitations of our brethren to attend important meetings. We had not the heart to refuse. These meetings have worn us both more than we were aware. Our good brethren were gratified, but they did not realize that in these meetings we took upon us greater burdens than at our age we could safely carry. They will never know the result of this long-continued strain upon us. God would have had them bear the burdens we have carried for years. Our nervous energies have been continuously taxed, and then our brethren misjudging our motives and not realizing our burdens have weakened the action

162

of the heart. I have made mistakes, the greatest of which was in allowing my sympathies for the people of God to lead me to take work upon me which others should have borne.

"Now, Ellen, calls will be made as they have been, desiring you to attend important meetings, as has been the case in the past. But lay this matter before God and make no response to the most earnest invitations. Your life hangs as it were upon a thread. You must have quiet rest, freedom from all excitement and from all disagreeable cares. We might have done a great deal for years with our pens, on subjects the people need that we have had light upon and can present before them, which others do not have. Thus you can work when your strength returns, as it will, and you can do far more with your pen than with your voice."

He looked at me appealingly and said, "You will not neglect these cautions, will you, Ellen? Our people will never know under what infirmities we have labored to serve them because our lives were interwoven with the progress of the work, but God knows it all. I regret that I have felt so deeply and labored unreasonably in emergencies, regardless of the laws of life and health. The Lord did not require us to carry so heavy burdens and many of our brethren so few. We ought to have gone to the Pacific Coast before, and devoted our time and energies to writing. Will you do this now? Will you, as your strength returns, take your pen and write out these things we have so long anticipated, and make haste slowly? There is important matter which the people need. Make this your first business. You will have to

163

speak some to the people, but shun the responsibilities which have borne us down."

"Well," said I, "James, you are always to stay with me now and we will work together." Said he, "I stayed in Battle Creek too long. I ought to have gone to California more than one year ago. But I wanted to help the work and institutions at Battle Creek. I have made a mistake. Your heart is tender. You will be inclined to make the same mistakes I have made. Your life can be of use to the cause of God. Oh, those precious subjects the Lord would have had me bring before the people, precious jewels of light!"

I awoke. But this dream seemed so real. Now you can see and understand why I feel no duty to go to Battle Creek for the purpose of shouldering the responsibilities in General Conference. I have no duty to stand in General Conference. The Lord forbids me. That is enough. -- Letter 17, 1881.

Ellen G. White Estate

The Retirement Years (1990), page 161-163

Could someone please give me a link to where this topic has been discussed before? I tried to do a search and had no luck.

This story is certainly news to me - my husband and I only discovered it this week. It was actually posted on an anti-Adventist website and quoted as proof that Ellen White was a false prophetess who was into necromancy (communication with the dead).

It it is a very common experience (almost universal?) to dream about a recently deceased loved one. How could it be otherwise, when the mind is in a state of emotional turmoil and the person who was part of your life for so long is no longer there? This happens to people of all religions and cultures. However, there are a few things about this account that leave me deeply troubled.

In the life and ministry of Ellen White, the role of dreams is almost indistinguishable from that of visions. She often refers to her dreams as "visions of the night." Yes, she acknowledges that there are regular dreams that arise from the normal affairs of daily life and the workings of our sleeping brains. But the very fact that she

- regards this dream as a message from the Lord

- writes it down and shares it with other(s)

- and quotes it as proof that it is her duty to follow a particular course of action

...says to me that this was not regarded as just a random dream caused by eating dinner too late at night. It has too much in common with other significant dreams in which she is given instructions in great detail and is an active participant in what happens in the dream.

And what are we to make of her request that she wants "James" to stay with her always and for them to work together? Is that just an emotional outburst, or does it put a cloud of uncertainty over the origin of any further dreams/visions received after this date?

I do not make Ellen White out to be infallible, and I have no problem accepting that she made errors. But this incident was written down, incorporated into her writings, and published by the E.G. White Estate as part of the "official church canon".

My husband and I have discussed this passage with a friend of ours who was a pastor for many years. We got a very superficial, "there there, it's just a dream" kind of response that didn't really answer any questions. If there is a more theologically sound and intellectually honest way of understanding this incident, we need to arrive at it - otherwise other Christian groups have a very explosive piece of ammunition with which to accuse us of being a cult and being involved with inappropriate spiritual(ist) practices.

aldona

[John317]

Did Ellen White believe that all of her dreams were God-sent?

Just wondering...

Here is a passage from chapter 13 of Herbert E. Douglass's book, Messenger of the Lord, which you can access online. The quote is also from 1 Testimonies pp. 569, 570.

Recognizing that questions would arise concerning the private nature of “dreams” and their authenticity as revelations, Ellen White wrote: “The multitude of dreams [ordinary dreams] arise from the common things of life, with which the Spirit of God has nothing to do. There are also false dreams, as well as false visions, which are inspired by the spirit of Satan. But dreams from the Lord are classed in the Word of God with visions, and are as truly the fruits of the Spirit of prophecy as visions. Such dreams, taking into the account the persons who have them, and the circumstances under which they are given, contain their own proofs of their genuineness.”

[John317]

Quote:

....I do not make Ellen White out to be infallible, and I have no problem accepting that she made errors. But this incident was written down, incorporated into her writings, and published by the E.G. White Estate as part of the "official church canon".

Of course she made errors as a human being. She did not always even understand all of the visions she was given. There were times when she wasn't sure if a vision was of something in the past or in the future.

I would be interested to know what error Mrs. White may have made in Letter 17, 1881.

It's obvious that Ellen White took the dream to be more than simply a common dream that results from upset stomach or due to an overactive brain. But at the same time, two important facts should be kept in mind:

(1) It was a dream, and people can't be judged by the things they say in a dream, because dreams are beyond our conscious control.

2) At about the very time this occurred, Ellen White was writing the early edition of The Great Controversy (1884), in which she writes at length of the importance of realizing that the dead do not know anything. There is not a shred of evidence that this dream changed her view or that she ever had any doubts about the unconscious state of the dead.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if some people or groups use this as a reason to attack or find fault with Ellen White or SDAs. In fact, I would be shocked if they haven't already. They've been doing that since before the SDA church became organized. We should try to set the record straight about things, but we shouldn't be under any illusions that setting the record straight will keep all people from gathering ammunition to make their accusations.

[Stan]

I for one think it is great that the Estate Publishes things like this, I think it says a lot.

[Amelia]

Quote:

I don't know if this is SDA-approved or not, but my *take* on death is that a person's body returns to dust. But the part of the person that made him/her unique and wanted is being held in the hand of God - not as a living being or soul, but as a sleeping spirit. But that is not what people meant when they told me Dad was just sleeping. It still reduces me to tears when someone says that to me.

Hi Charis,

If they were SDA then when they said "he is just sleeping" they did indeed mean his soul is sleeping in the Lord. It doesn't matter what happens to the body, burial or cremation, upon death the soul returns to the Maker and stays there in dreamless sleep until called forth again at the second coming. And wont it be fantastic to see all our loved ones whole and healthy again at that time? I think so!