Americans, know your rights.

[Amelia]

Know Your Rights: Bustcard

Print it out and carry it in your car.

http://www.aclu.org/racialjustice/racialprofiling/15865pub20040714.html

[Dr. Shane]

While I know there is some overlapping, I feel confident in saying the agenda of the ACLU is not the same as the Seventh-day Adventist Religious Liberty department.

Here are a few things the ACLU has fought for.

1. Blocking prayer and Bible reading in our public schools and city/village meetings

2. Litigating to remove 10 Commandments plaques and all Christian symbols and emblems in schools, cities and public places

3. Ensuring the procedure of partial birth abortion be permitted as a recognized legal medical procedure

4. Ensuring abortion without restrictions be available at any time throughout a woman's pregnancy

5. Ensuring parents be denied the right to consent or even be notified of a teenager's decision to have an abortion

6. Denying waiting periods before pregnant women have an abortion

7. Denying "right to know" information to women considering the dangerous risks of having an abortion

8. Removing "IN GOD WE TRUST" from our money

9. Forcing religious organizations like Catholic Charities as well as insurance companies to provide contraceptive and/or abortion coverage against their will

10. Removing God out of the Pledge of Allegiance

11. Forcing homosexuality to be taught as an acceptable alternate lifestyle in public schools

12. Forcing public schools to adopt Gay/Straight Alliances in communities that do not want them

13. Forcing states to accept same sex marriage as equivalent to heterosexual marriage

14. Preventing libraries from blocking pornography in their computers

[John317]

Not surprised. They have done a few good things, but when you see that list, you tend to forget anything else. It obviously has a really strong, anti-Christian agenda, or at least if it doesn't they could have fooled me.

I would like to read an honest, well-researched book on the history and goals of their organization.

[Neil D]

Lest we forget what we think the ACLU is about, here is what THEY say they're about.

The American system of government is founded on two counterbalancing principles: that the majority of the people governs, through democratically elected representatives; and that the power even of a democratic majority must be limited, to ensure individual rights.

Majority power is limited by the Constitution's Bill of Rights, which consists of the original ten amendments ratified in 1791, plus the three post-Civil War amendments (the 13th, 14th and 15th) and the 19th Amendment (women's suffrage), adopted in 1920.

The mission of the ACLU is to preserve all of these protections and guarantees:

Your First Amendment rights - freedom of speech, association and assembly; freedom of the press, and freedom of religion.

Your right to equal protection under the law - equal treatment regardless of race, sex, religion or national origin.

Your right to due process - fair treatment by the government whenever the loss of your liberty or property is at stake.

Your right to privacy - freedom from unwarranted government intrusion into your personal and private affairs.

We work also to extend rights to segments of our population that have traditionally been denied their rights, including Native Americans and other people of color; lesbians, gay men, bisexuals and transgender people; women; mental-health patients; prisoners; people with disabilities; and the poor.

If the rights of society's most vulnerable members are denied, everybody's rights are imperiled.

The ACLU was founded by Roger Baldwin, Crystal Eastman, Albert DeSilver and others in 1920. We are nonprofit and nonpartisan and have grown from a roomful of civil liberties activists to an organization of more than 500,000 members and supporters. We handle nearly 6,000 court cases annually from our offices in almost every state.

The ACLU has maintained the position that civil liberties must be respected, even in times of national emergency. The ACLU is supported by annual dues and contributions from its members, plus grants from private foundations and individuals. We do not receive any government funding.

[Gregory Matthews]

Should a Christian agenda be legislated?

Or, should a Christian agenda be propounded by Christian churches.

NOTE: Christian values may be attached to much that is legislated. I am not suggesting that we should not have civil government. Murder, or its prevention, may have a Christian value. I am not stating that the chruches should tell people not to murder and that there should be no law against it.

[Dr. Shane]

I don't think most Seventh-day Adventists want a civil government that is controlled by Christians. In fact, I think most Adventists fear exactly that type of government. That is what makes the ACLU attractive to some Adventists. However the ACLU paints themselves in a way that makes them seem to be a protector of civil liberties. Yet this is the same organization that would prevent a child from praying before his meal in public school. This organization does not want a pregnant women to be informed of the risks or options before having an abortion. This is an organization that would force the Adventist church to hire homosexuals and provide benefits for their gay lovers. They would force our hospitals to perform abortions on demand and whatever else is part of their agenda. I suspect they oppose government monies, such as grants, going to our universities. Their protection of liberty only applies to what they define as liberty.

Adventists criticize other denominations for joining hands on common causes and ignoring significant differences. Supporting the ACLU is no less offensive. Those Adventists earnestly wanting to preserve liberties would do well to support the various Religious Liberty departments in the G.C. and various union levels. Subscribing in Liberty Magazine also helps the cause without compromising on our values.

[lazarus]

I guess that problem with the ACLU is that they sometimes fight for the civil liberties of those who we disagree with. If only they would only fight for our civil liberties!

[Neil D]

Quote:

I guess that problem with the ACLU is that they sometimes fight for the civil liberties of those who we disagree with. If only they would only fight for our civil liberties!

Oooh, to play devil's advocate!!! Love that job!..... LOL

Quote:

However the ACLU paints themselves in a way that makes them seem to be a protector of civil liberties. Yet this is the same organization that would prevent a child from praying before his meal in public school. This organization does not want a pregnant women to be informed of the risks or options before having an abortion. This is an organization that would force the Adventist church to hire homosexuals and provide benefits for their gay lovers. They would force our hospitals to perform abortions on demand and whatever else is part of their agenda. I suspect they oppose government monies, such as grants, going to our universities. Their protection of liberty only applies to what they define as liberty.

Is this the religouis conservative spin on the ACLU protecting our libertys and individual responsiblities? Is this the religous conservative interpretation on what they will do??? I suspect that it is...They have defended the homosexual rights so that other small organizations, such as ours, would have a voice...after all, if you silence one group, you will silence all eventually. And then the land of the free, including the freedom to speak would be eliminated at all times and under all circumstances...Then where would the land of the free be?

They have taken up cases against our church where we were oppressing our bretheren [and sisters]...The truth of the matter is that you don't like the company that we keep when they protect our rights...ie homosexuals, prisoners, even SDA women and et al. That is the subtelist form of racism that I can show...HOw did EGW put it- "Oh for the want of men, who will do what is right, though the heavens fall!" We don't have those types of people in our church leadership positions...at least, not publically...

[Dr. Shane]

"It's widely accepted that the ACLU is a far left organization.

It's not widely know what the ACLU actually stands up for and fights for.

• The ACLU is defending the North American Man Boy Love Association, saying that although the organization champions the criminal rape of children, it has a right to do that under free expression.

• The ACLU endorses virtual child pornography and has defended the right of people to obtain real child porn.

The ACLU's founder, Roger Baldwin (in his own words): I am for socialism, disarmament, and, ultimately, for abolishing the state itself... I seek the social ownership of property, the abolition of the propertied class, and the sole control of those who produce wealth. Communism is the goal."

Any money anyone is considering sending to the ACLU they should seriously consider tossing in the offering plate earmarked for Religious Liberty.

[Neil D]

"It's widely accepted that the ACLU is a far left organization.

It's not widely know what the ACLU actually stands up for and fights for.

"Far Left organization"??? Who says? Where is this coming from? Who has labled the ACLU as a far left organization? Can we see where you are getting this?

As for that "It's not widely known[sic] what the ACLU actually stands for."- all they have to do is to look it up from THIER website to be able to decipher what they are doing.

As for who they defend, as I have said in another post, the adventist church doesn't like who they are being associated with when the ACLU is defending our right to evangelize/free speach/sabbath observance.

Oh, Shane...I, at least, state where I get my information...and the following post is from Wikapedia. The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) is a major American non-profit organization whose stated mission is "to defend and preserve the individual rights and liberties guaranteed to every person in this country by the Constitution and laws of the United States".[1] It works through litigation, legislation, and community education.[1] Founded in 1920 by Crystal Eastman and Roger Baldwin, the ACLU was the successor organization to the earlier National Civil Liberties Bureau founded during World War I.[2] The ACLU reported over 500,000 members at the end of 2005.

Lawsuits brought by the ACLU have been influential in the evolution of U.S. Constitutional law.[3] The ACLU provides legal assistance in cases in which it considers civil liberties to be at risk. Even when the ACLU does not provide direct legal representation, it often submits amicus curiae briefs.

Outside of its legal work, the organization has also engaged in lobbying of elected officials and political activism.[4] The ACLU has been critical of elected officials and policies of both Democrats and Republicans. However, Republicans consistently rank lower than Democrats in regard to supporting ACLU goals as seen in ACLU voting guides.[5]

Oh, and here is the ACLU positions from Wikapedia

[b]Positions

While the bulk of the ACLU's cases involve the First Amendment, Equal Protection, Due Process, and the right to privacy,[29] the organization has taken positions on a wide range of issues. Broadly, the ACLU supports:

Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa speaking at an ACLU event. Villaraigosa is a former board member and president of the ACLU Southern California affiliate.

Religious liberty: Defends the individual right of Americans of all religions to practice and/or display affirmations of their faith in public, but not on public property with government sponsorship or endorsement.[30][31]

Separation of church and state; under this mandate, the ACLU:

Opposes the government-sponsored display of religious symbols on public property;

Opposes official prayers, religious ceremonies, and some kinds of "moments of silence"[32] in public schools or schools funded with public money;

Full freedom of speech and of the press, including school newspapers;

Reproductive rights, including the right to use contraception and to have an abortion;

Full civil rights for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender people, including government benefits for homosexual couples equal to those provided for heterosexual ones;

Affirmative action as a means of redressing past discrimination and achieving a racially diverse student body;[33]

The rights of defendants and suspects against unconstitutional police practices;

The decriminalization of drugs such as heroin, cocaine and marijuana;[34]

Privacy as it "works to preserve the American tradition that the government not track individuals or violate privacy unless it has evidence of wrongdoing."[35]

Immigrants' rights by "challenging unconstitutional laws and practices, countering the myths upon which many of these laws are based."[36]

Concerning Gun Control, the ACLU embraces the States' Right Model interpretation of the Second Amendment, which only recognizes a state's right to possess firearms, the organization officially declares itself "neutral" on the issue of gun control, pointing to previous Supreme Court decisions such as United States v. Miller to argue that the Second Amendment applies to the preservation or efficiency of a well-regulated militia, and that "except for lawful police and military purposes, the possession of firearms by individuals is not constitutionally protected."[37]

The ACLU has opposed some campaign finance reform laws such as the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act, which it considers an inappropriate restriction upon freedom of expression. It does not have a policy of blanket opposition to all laws on campaign finance.[38]

While the ACLU does oppose the use of crosses in public monuments,[39][40] there have been false allegations that the ACLU has urged the removal of cross-shaped headstones from federal cemeteries and has opposed prayer by soldiers; such charges have been deemed to be urban legends.[41]

[Dr. Shane]

Just Google "ACLU > NAMBLA"

The words within quotation marks were not mine but it is well known that ACLU is a far left organization. Some accuse the Adventist Religious Liberty departments of being too far left but they are clearly much closer to a moderate position on the spectrum when compared to the ACLU.

I cannot see why any member of the Adventist church would want to fund the ACLU when their own church has its own religious liberty department that does a much nobler job and will be ready to help if one suffers religious discrimination and is in need of legal counsel.

[Neil D]

Quote:

The words within quotation marks were not mine but it is well known that ACLU is a far left organization.

It can appear that way, especially if you view it thru conservative Republican values....But from an apolitical viewpoint, they do a great service to the american constitution by clarifying the constitution according to the times.

Quote:

Some accuse the Adventist Religious Liberty departments of being too far left but they are clearly much closer to a moderate position on the spectrum when compared to the ACLU.

They also have a MUCH narrower spectrum and one that is much closer to your own... It kinda colors ones perspective on it...

Quote:

I cannot see why any member of the Adventist church would want to fund the ACLU when their own church has its own religious liberty department that does a much nobler job and will be ready to help if one suffers religious discrimination and is in need of legal counsel.

I never said that anyone was funding the ACLU. Why are you disparaging anyone who might?

[lazarus]

"It's widely accepted that the ACLU is a far left organization.

I would also want to know where you got this notion from. Can you provide a quote, stats. etc.

[lazarus]

Shane can you post the information you found regarding the ACLU and Nambla......here is the first hit I found, from the ACLU's own website. Did you see it?

http://www.aclu.org/freespeech/protest/11289prs20000831.html

ACLU Statement on Defending Free Speech of Unpopular Organizations (8/31/2000)

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

NEW YORK--In the United States Supreme Court over the past few years, the American Civil Liberties Union has taken the side of a fundamentalist Christian church, a Santerian church, and the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. In celebrated cases, the ACLU has stood up for everyone from Oliver North to the National Socialist Party. In spite of all that, the ACLU has never advocated Christianity, ritual animal sacrifice, trading arms for hostages or genocide. In representing NAMBLA today, our Massachusetts affiliate does not advocate sexual relationships between adults and children.

What the ACLU does advocate is robust freedom of speech for everyone. The lawsuit involved here, were it to succeed, would strike at the heart of freedom of speech. The case is based on a shocking murder. But the lawsuit says the crime is the responsibility not of those who committed the murder, but of someone who posted vile material on the Internet. The principle is as simple as it is central to true freedom of speech: those who do wrong are responsible for what they do; those who speak about it are not.

It is easy to defend freedom of speech when the message is something many people find at least reasonable. But the defense of freedom of speech is most critical when the message is one most people find repulsive. That was true when the Nazis marched in Skokie. It remains true today.

[Neil D]

It is really disconcerting to read radical statements that appear as "mainstream" and are assumed to be "mainstream" when it is obviously slanted....

While the ACLU does defend what appears "left" political agendas, the ACLU has defended some very broad principles what include the Adventist church. The ACLU has defended many in our church on thier Sabbath stand....and supported our right to speak/evangelize.

While they have not agreed with everything we propose, they have due support our views of separation of church and state....and we see many incursions in the public areana...for example the displaying of the 10 Commandments in a US Court of Law. Not a wise thing...unless you include other documents of law from other religions...Then you are not being biased, but rather inclusive...

Where I do disagree with them is the displaying the manger scene on public grounds, ie city hall or other public buildings...It adds to the atomsphere of the season...but that is my opinion...

To defend members of NAMBLA, is to defend free speach...I may not agree with what NAMBLA does, but I will defend your right to say it. And maybe not as vigoriously as I would a JW who is bothering people going door to door... :smilewink:

[Dr. Shane]

Every position is slanted one way or the other. The ACLU does provide a needed service as does Greenpeace, the NRA, the Christian Coalition but that is not to say I would encourage fellow church members to financially support such organizations when money is needed to spread the gospel and help the needy.

The ACLU also helped Rush Limbaugh fight off the politically motivated prosecutors that went after him. So it isn't that they only take on liberal causes. However they do take a liberal position on most things and go to great lengths to defend it.

Should a Christian business man have to provide benefits for his gay employee's lovers when as a Christian he believes homosexuality to be a sin? There we see the religious rights of one individual set against what is called the civil right of another. We know which side the ACLU comes down on.

What about a parent's rights? Does a parent have the right to decide whether or not their teenage child can have an abortion? We know what the ALCU believes. It isn't the parent's civil rights they are worried about.

What about the husband of a woman that wants to have an abortion? Does he have the right to be informed his wife is having an abortion? We know what the ACLU would say. They are not concerned about the husband's civil liberties.

[Neil D]

Quote:

Every position is slanted one way or the other. The ACLU does provide a needed service as does Greenpeace, the NRA, the Christian Coalition but that is not to say I would encourage fellow church members to financially support such organizations when money is needed to spread the gospel and help the needy.

Ummm....again, what is the relivance of supporting the ACLU when that is not in question??? and based upon your last post on this, and now your rewording it, I have to believe that you are actively discouraging any support to this fine institution which does support free speach, allowing us to spread the gospel and help the needy. By actively impeading someone of possibly supporting the gospel, indirectly, I have to assume that you are alining yourself as a religious pharasee...supporting the religious tenets, but undermining God's principles.... In so many ways, this is just wrong!

Quote:

However they do take a liberal position on most things and go to great lengths to defend it.

Is it truely a liberal position or is it supporting a principle that looks liberal? After all, defending the constitution would be concidered a conservative postion...wouldn't it?

[Gregory Matthews]

Re:

Quote:

Should a Christian business man have to provide benefits for his gay employee's lovers when as a Christian he believes homosexuality to be a sin? There we see the religious rights of one individual set against what is called the civil right of another. We know which side the ACLU comes down on.

If I am a MD, should I as a physician provide medical care to the above individual if I believe homosexuality is a sin?

Is homosexuality (a condition) a sin, as opposed to being a result of sin?

There is a valid social question as to whether or not a business person should be required to pay benefits to family members, and how to define who is a family member. I am not debating that point.

If a Christian businessperson provides health care to a homosexual lover, is that businessperson actuality acuality supporting the homosexual life style? Some would say anything that prolongs the life of a homosexual supports that life style! Should that be the Christian response?

If I say that providing health benefits to a homosexual lover should not be done by a Christian, where would I draw the line? Would I exclude a Hindu? Or, would I refuse to employ that Hindu? O.K. Would I exclude the male employee who beds a new woman each weekend? So, he develops a venerial disease, would I refuse to provide him with helth benefits that covered that condition?

The reality is that many who would exclude helth benefits to those who practice the homosexual life style would allow those same benefits to be given to people who engage in other sins. In God's eyes is it worse to get a veneral disease from a homosexaul relationship that it would be to get it from a heterosexual relationship outside of marriage?

[Dr. Shane]

The issue isn't what a Christian should or shouldn't do. It is if a person should have the right to practice his form of religion regardless if we agree with it or not. That is religious liberty. Now all of us here may agree that a doctor should treat a homosexual - but we know that Adventist hospitals have refused to deliver babies to unwed mothers - so... a doctor, as an individual probably should have the right to refuse his services to a homosexual if he believes offering them violates his religious principles. We may disagree with that and find it 100% against our Christian principles but religious liberty means we allow the doctor to make that decision for himself.

Am I discouraging people from financially supporting the ACLU? YES, YES, YES and 1,000 times YES! I also include other radical groups in there like Greenpeace, the NRA and the Christian Coalition. Does the ACLU defend freedom of speech? Yes, but so does our own religious liberty department.

Jesus is coming soon folks. Our dollars are limited. We should really send them where they are best used. The ACLU is not one of those places.

[Gregory Matthews]

Shane we know that at one time our hospitals in the U.S. refused to provide services to African-Aans.

You tell us now that they have also refused to delliver babies to unwed mothers! That is astounding.

Please give us more informaition: date, place and hospital.

NOTE: YOur clear implication is that they refused because the woman was not married. Please do not tell us that a SDA mental hospital, that had not Emergency department, and no OBBYN department was the hospital that refused. I am well aware that we have specialized hospitals that do not deliver any babies.

[Amelia]

Boy, all I wanted to do was make everyone aware of what rights they are approached by a police officer. Didn't mean to start a kafuffle. teehe

[Denise]

Quote:

Didn't mean to start a kafuffle.

Just Smiling!! teehe

[Neil D]

Quote:

The issue isn't what a Christian should or shouldn't do.

Oh, but it is, Shane...it is...especially if he wants to keep the title of Christian....

Quote:

It is if a person should have the right to practice his form of religion regardless if we agree with it or not. That is religious liberty. Now all of us here may agree that a doctor should treat a homosexual - but we know that Adventist hospitals have refused to deliver babies to unwed mothers - so... a doctor, as an individual probably should have the right to refuse his services to a homosexual if he believes offering them violates his religious principles. We may disagree with that and find it 100% against our Christian principles but religious liberty means we allow the doctor to make that decision for himself.

So, under the disguise of "religious liberty", you would allow a person to become a bigot, and a racist. I am sorry, Shane, but I can't let that happen without exposing the hypocracy of the stance...especially if he wants to be known as a follower of the Christ.

Oh, and in keeping of the principles your 'religious' liberty, you have brought pressure to the religious SDA community by maintaining a standard that overtly implies anyone supporting the ACLU is undermining your religious liberty.

Shane, your views are yours, and that is ok...but you have expressed them as mainstream or as a common viewpoint held by many....I am going to tell you that, at least when it comes to the ACLU, you hold very radical and prejudicial viewpoints, and they are not mainstream adventist. You maintian a myth as 'truth', and that "truth" is bigoted, and racist and rooted in being a pharisee. In fact, it isn't truth at all...Oh, it appears truthful...what you are missing is the underlying reason why the ACLU does what it does....and is consistant with it's stated views...Granted, I don't necessarily like who the ACLU stands with, but I am glad that the broader principles of freedom that ACLU legally defend are the same biblical/US constitutional principles that I would die and fight for and, if they asked, send money to support [since you brought it up].

You probably have a problem with that view...I'm not here to publically maintain a community standard and tell the community thru implicit means what they can or can not do as SDA. You, however, have demonstated that...all in the name of "religious liberty." And I, cannot support that.

[Neil D]

Boy, all I wanted to do was make everyone aware of what rights they are approached by a police officer. Didn't mean to start a kafuffle. teehe

2 things-

Sorry that this went to nationalistic levels...aclu vs the local constable...The local constable issues would have been good.

and I learned a new word today-

Main Entry: kafuffle

Part of Speech: n

Definition: disorder, commotion; also written curfuffle, kerfuffle, gefuffle

Etymology: Gaelic cur 'twist, bend' + fuffle

now if I just knews how to pronounce it.....

[Amelia]

Just like it's spelled. Ka.fuff.full CD