Inspiration

[Tom Wetmore]

The word "inspiration" as used in Scripture is generally understood to mean "God-breathed". God also breathed life into Adam. If God's breath is life and God's breath is also inspiration, shouldn't we find inspiration wherever we find life?

Speaking of inspiration as God-breathed, have you noticed that some folk seem to think they can take God's breath away? And that others seem to think God is a bit short of breath these days? And that still others seem to believe that God has been holding His breath since, let's say, 1915?

Tom

[aldona]

The word "inspiration" as used in Scripture is generally understood to mean "God-breathed". God also breathed life into Adam. If God's breath is life and God's breath is also inspiration, shouldn't we find inspiration wherever we find life?

Speaking of inspiration as God-breathed, have you noticed that some folk seem to think they can take God's breath away? And that others seem to think God is a bit short of breath these days? And that still others seem to believe that God has been holding His breath since, let's say, 1915?

Tom

Agree 100% - you've summed it up beautifully, nothing more I can add!

aldona

[D. Allan]

I am happy to second Aldona's appreciation of your post, Tom. You said that beautifully.

[Tom Wetmore]

Taking it one step further - the word "spirit" in Scripture also means breath. References to God's spirit is literally God's breath. The Holy Spirit could be described as the Holy Breath. Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit and at Pentecost Peter recognized the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy (Joel 2:28-32) that God would pour out his spirit on all people. This outpouring is often referred to as rain, latter rain. (rain of the water of life, you might say...) Interesting that Jesus said that the Father sends his rain to the righteous and the unrighteous alike - all people.

Given this pervasive outpouring of inspiration, why do we try to limit inspiration to a select few?

Tom

[aldona]

Quote:

Given this pervasive outpouring of inspiration, why do we try to limit inspiration to a select few?

More like a select "one"...

aldona

[LifeHiscost]

Interesting that Jesus said that the Father sends his rain to the righteous and the unrighteous alike - all people.

Given this pervasive outpouring of inspiration, why do we try to limit inspiration to a select few?

Tom

Could it be because all also have been given the gift of free choice and in exercising that choice in a deleterious manner reveals outwardly that some can be seen more clearly as having been given of the Spirit of God, while the choices of others make it more difficult to see that God has blest them with the same gift.

"You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

John 8:44 NASB

Just in case anyone would conclude I am personally using this Scripture to point them out, that would be entirely erroneous.

The Word can often be very pointed but He doesn't need me to address anyone beyond His own convicting power.

Blessings!

[olger]

Thanks for your thoughts, Tom. I like the connection between breath and the spirit, although it is not universal.

I believe that the Good Book says God "desires all men to be saved" (1 Timothy 2:4). Is God's will ALWAYS accomplished? Apparently not "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost" (2 Cor. 4:3).

Thus the outpouring of the Spirit in the early rain is for conviction of sin & guilt through righteousness & judgement (John 16). He is also come for healing, truth and revelation. This is, I believe, the essence of conviction.

But, the latter Rain will fall only upon those willing to accept him. As the Spirit of God is withdrawn from the world it is re-endowed upon every man woman and child who is willing to receive it. "To him that hath, more will be given."

I have no doubt that you or I have at times, been inspired to speak or act in a certain situation. To show kindness in the face of scorn, forgiveness to those who need it, and to encourage those whose "hands hang down."

Does this qualify us to be God's messenger in the sense that God called three people to bear the Advent light (2-men first and then a woman)? I don't think so, but I am open to your thoughts.

As a convert to this church, I am amazed at how certain generational people have treasured so much angst up against Ellen. I encountered it at camp meeting this year. It's absolutely appalling. What did Ellen do to deserve this angst, but carry out God's will?

I just finished reading Isaiah. He didn't win too many popularity contests either...

Lest I be misunderstood, I'm not attempting to expose anyone, but I sometimes hear the innuendos against Ellen and I wonder...

Is it good to walk in bitterness towards her? Or would it be better to walk in forgiveness, humility and power? An evil world celebrates doubt, let us not walk in it.

og

[Gerr]

The word "inspiration" as used in Scripture is generally understood to mean "God-breathed". God also breathed life into Adam. If God's breath is life and God's breath is also inspiration, shouldn't we find inspiration wherever we find life?

Speaking of inspiration as God-breathed, have you noticed that some folk seem to think they can take God's breath away? And that others seem to think God is a bit short of breath these days? And that still others seem to believe that God has been holding His breath since, let's say, 1915?

Tom

Are you therefore a prophet? IS everyone that has breath a prophet?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal.

Really?

"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that he might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing,, but that she should be holy and without blemish. Eph 5:25-27 NKJ

"And you, who one were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet nhow He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard...." Col 1:22,23 NKJ

Christ has a very shallow goal for his Bride? Frankly, I find that very offensive.

Gerry

[Tom Wetmore]

Quote:

Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal.

Really?...

Yes, really!

Sinless perfection is by definition being totally without, and free of, sin. The goal of the Pharisee was perfect obedience to the law, to not break any of the laws even to the slightest extent of straining tiny unclean insects out of their drinking water and counting tiny individual herb seeds to tithe - sinless perfection. With that standard of conduct in mind Paul declared he was faultless. But Jesus declared that unless our righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees, we are not a part of His kingdom.

The point of a legalistic pursuit of perfect obedience to the law, not committing even the slightest sin, is that it trends inevitably toward doing less and less. Consider the zealous Sabbath keeper avoiding anything that could be seen as work, etc. to the point that the best way to get a Sabbath rest is to sleep the day away! The basic method is to overcome evil by merely avoiding and doing no evil.

Yes, humans' ultimately achieve that absolutely perfect state of not committing, or even being able to commit, a single sin when they are dead - but then they no earthly good. But Jesus' way is to overcome evil with good, by committing acts of goodness.

Jesus calls us to a much higher standard than being empty of sin. He calls us to be full of righteousness, to be as perfect as the Father in heaven - so full of goodness and love that there is no room for sin.

If you find that offensive, I am truly sorry.

Tom

[Tom Wetmore]

...Lest I be misunderstood, I'm not attempting to expose anyone, but I sometimes hear the innuendos against Ellen and I wonder...

What innuendos against Ellen?!?!

I think you missed the point entirely.

Tom

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Quote:

Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal.

Really?...

Yes, really!

Sinless perfection is by definition being totally without, and free of, sin. The goal of the Pharisee was perfect obedience to the law, to not break any of the laws even to the slightest extent of straining tiny unclean insects out of their drinking water and counting tiny individual herb seeds to tithe - sinless perfection. With that standard of conduct in mind Paul declared he was faultless. But Jesus declared that unless our righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees, we are not a part of His kingdom.

The point of a legalistic pursuit of perfect obedience to the law, not committing even the slightest sin, is that it trends inevitably toward doing less and less. Consider the zealous Sabbath keeper avoiding anything that could be seen as work, etc. to the point that the best way to get a Sabbath rest is to sleep the day away! The basic method is to overcome evil by merely avoiding and doing no evil.

Yes, humans' ultimately achieve that absolutely perfect state of not committing, or even being able to commit, a single sin when they are dead - but then they no earthly good. But Jesus' way is to overcome evil with good, by committing acts of goodness.

Jesus calls us to a much higher standard than being empty of sin. He calls us to be full of righteousness, to be as perfect as the Father in heaven - so full of goodness and love that there is no room for sin.

If you find that offensive, I am truly sorry.

Tom

Let me ask you. Is it possible for Jesus to remove sin from a believer's life and not fill him with goodness and righteousness? Was it not Jesus who said, "Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more." Jn 8:11 NKJ. Is that a shallow goal?

The Apostle John says, "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him." A shallow goal?

As sin is evicted from the life by the power of the indwelling Spirit, righteousness takes the place of sin. Or else, as Jesus said, if the house remains empty, the evil spirit will return to inhabit it all over again. So for anyone to think that they can rid themselves of sin without filling it with goodness/righteousness is shallow thinking indeed.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: olger

...Lest I be misunderstood, I'm not attempting to expose anyone, but I sometimes hear the innuendos against Ellen and I wonder...

What innuendos against Ellen?!?!

I think you missed the point entirely.

Tom

Tom, we're not idiots. Tells us what you meant by 1915 other than that was when the prophetic ministry of EGW came to an end?

Gerry

[Tom Wetmore]

...Tom, we're not idiots. Tells us what you meant by 1915 other than that was when the prophetic ministry of EGW came to an end?

Don't be so hasty about declaring your mental state!

The topic is INSPIRATION. EGW died in 1915. The statement was that some people act as if inspiration died with her. The emphasis is clearly on those who seem to find no evidence or fail to recognize inspiration in anyone after 1915. The indictment is on those people and their myopia. It is not about the state of inspiration prior to 1915. And it was not about any lack of inspiration to found in the prophetic ministry of EGW.

If there is any innuendo to be read into that statement it would be that inspiration was to be found in events and lives of those existing before 1915 and if it ended with the death of a particular person in that year the logical implication would have to be that it was to have been found in the life and experience of that person prior to it having come to an end when that person came to the end of her life. This would seem to anyone who is not an idiot as generally an affirmation of that person as having at the very least to have been touched by the topic at hand - INSPIRATION.

Jumping to conclusions is lousy exercise, mentally speaking, and does nothing to advance a discussion. And the fact that several of you automatically leaped to that negative and judgmental assumption about me and what you assumed I must be thinking speaks volumes about your state of mind, attitude and prejudices.

:R

Tom

[LifeHiscost]

Sinless perfection is by definition being totally without, and free of, sin. The goal of the Pharisee was perfect obedience to the law

Tom

May I suggest the goal of sinless perfection was not original with the Pharisees. In the words of Jesus___

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48 KJV

The problem of outstanding negative consequences the Pharisees

brought to pass was that they accepted a principle of the kingdom of darkness, although possibly unknowingly.

"I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." Isaiah 14:14 NASB

Jesus voiced His own concern that the disciples might not make the same mistake as the Pharisees.

"I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing ." John 15:5 NKJV

Much of the Christian population today still struggle under the same false doctrine.

Regards!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

...Tom, we're not idiots. Tells us what you meant by 1915 other than that was when the prophetic ministry of EGW came to an end?

Don't be so hasty about declaring your mental state!

The topic is INSPIRATION. EGW died in 1915. The statement was that some people act as if inspiration died with her. The emphasis is clearly on those who seem to find no evidence or fail to recognize inspiration in anyone after 1915. The indictment is on those people and their myopia. It is not about the state of inspiration prior to 1915. And it was not about any lack of inspiration to found in the prophetic ministry of EGW.

Sooooooooo, you were referring to EGW!!!

How could any Bible-believing Christian come to the conclusion that the prophetic gift died with her in 1915? Paul plainly says that one of the gifts of the Spirit is the gift of prophecy, 1 Cor 13, Rom 12, Eph 4. The prophet Joel prophesied that God will pour His Spirit in the last days.

Quote:

If there is any innuendo to be read into that statement it would be that inspiration was to be found in events and lives of those existing before 1915 and if it ended with the death of a particular person in that year the logical implication would have to be that it was to have been found in the life and experience of that person prior to it having come to an end when that person came to the end of her life. This would seem to anyone who is not an idiot as generally an affirmation of that person as having at the very least to have been touched by the topic at hand - INSPIRATION.

So then, my question stands. Because the breath of the Spirit is going in & out of your lungs, are you therefore a prophet? Is everyone a prophet?

Quote:

Jumping to conclusions is lousy exercise, mentally speaking, and does nothing to advance a discussion. And the fact that several of you automatically leaped to that negative and judgmental assumption about me and what you assumed I must be thinking speaks volumes about your state of mind, attitude and prejudices.

:R

Tom

In communication, what people say between the lines are just as important as the words themselves.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Sinless perfection is by definition being totally without, and free of, sin. The goal of the Pharisee was perfect obedience to the law

Tom

May I suggest the goal of sinless perfection was not original with the Pharisees. In the words of Jesus___

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48 KJV

Yeah, Jesus must have a very shallow goal!

Gerry

[Tom Wetmore]

OK Gerry and "LifeHisCost" all this attempt to start an argument about my signature line quote is

I'm glad you noticed, but as is readily apparent, you miss the point. Since you still don't get the point after I explained it in detail to you, just forget about. If you wish to obsess and nitpick about it further, go start your own topic and knock yourself out without disrupting this topic which is, as I said before, INSPIRATION . For someone who seems to think they have a gift for reading between the lines you certainly missed that opportunity. :R

Tom

[Tom Wetmore]

Sooooooooo, you were referring to EGW!!!

How could any Bible-believing Christian come to the conclusion that the prophetic gift died with her in 1915? Paul plainly says that one of the gifts of the Spirit is the gift of prophecy, 1 Cor 13, Rom 12, Eph 4. The prophet Joel prophesied that God will pour His Spirit in the last days.

Sooooooooo WHAT! I never said it wasn't an allusion to EGW. But it is you who have gone wild distorting it away from the point. And if you were honestly paying attention to what is actually said instead of trying to pick a fight by ineptly trying to read between the lines you would recognize that your slack-jawed "How could anyone" response is essentially the point I was making in commentary about other Adventists who act as if inspiration died with EGW.

Quote:

So then, my question stands. Because the breath of the Spirit is going in & out of your lungs, are you therefore a prophet? Is everyone a prophet?

No, your question feebly stumbled and fell flat on its face. That is why I politely ignored it the first time around. But since you seem to want to still roll it over and try to kick it back to its wobbly feet... This is not about being a prophet. It is about inspiration. Are only prophets inspired? Why do you and others make that erroneous assumption? Why do people try to box inspiration in and limit it? That is the point! Get it?!?!

Quote:

In communication, what people say between the lines are just as important as the words themselves.

But it doesn't really make much sense if you don't pay attention to the lines themselves, now does it? And it's even worse if you also totally misread between the lines! Reading between the lines is a special gift quite like reading minds, or being a prophet... Some have the gift and some obviously do not.

Tom

[Gerr]

OK Gerry and "LifeHisCost" all this attempt to start an argument about my signature line quote is

I'm glad you noticed, but as is readily apparent, you miss the point. Since you still don't get the point after I explained it in detail to you, just forget about. If you wish to obsess and nitpick about it further, go start your own topic and knock yourself out without disrupting this topic which is, as I said before, INSPIRATION . For someone who seems to think they have a gift for reading between the lines you certainly missed that opportunity. :R

Tom

I don't see a sign on this thread that limits it only to choir boys.

BTW, if you don't want the topic of the thread diluted, then I suggest you not pollute it with incendiary like your signature line.

Gerry

[Gerr]

Quote:

Quote:

So then, my question stands. Because the breath of the Spirit is going in & out of your lungs, are you therefore a prophet? Is everyone a prophet?

No, your question feebly stumbled and fell flat on its face. That is why I politely ignored it the first time around. But since you seem to want to still roll it over and try to kick it back to its wobbly feet... This is not about being a prophet. It is about inspiration. Are only prophets inspired? Why do you and others make that erroneous assumption? Why do people try to box inspiration in and limit it? That is the point! Get it?!?!

Tom, since you do not want to "box" inspiration and limit it to a certain few, or a "certain one" as someone else said, why then do you find it inept for me to ask if you are therefore a prophet? If prophets are not the only ones inspired, is it not legitimate to ask if you are a prophet? Or inspired?

Quote:

Quote:

In communication, what people say between the lines are just as important as the words themselves.

But it doesn't really make much sense if you don't pay attention to the lines themselves, now does it? And it's even worse if you also totally misread between the lines! Reading between the lines is a special gift quite like reading minds, or being a prophet... Some have the gift and some obviously do not.

Tom

Communication is a TWO way street. Miscommunication occurs when the message sent is not clear, or the receiver does not have good hearing.

Gerry

[olger]

Originally Posted By: olger

...Lest I be misunderstood, I'm not attempting to expose anyone, but I sometimes hear the innuendos against Ellen and I wonder...

What innuendos against Ellen?!?!

I think you missed the point entirely.

Tom

You know.... I don't believe I did ! There may be other points that I am willing to consider however .

All the best,

oG

[Morning Glory]

Hi Tom,

I read your first post this morning here and on the Wheel and have been mulling it over in my mind ever since. I think that you bring up a legitimate point about inspiration!! In my opinion, it is entirely God's perrogative who He wishes to "inspire". I believe that Ellen White was specifically picked by God and inspired by Him to deliver a special message/ messages to a certain group of His followers. I also believe that He has inspired numerous other people over the years and through the ages. Some of those inspired messages were written down, most of them probably weren't.

I know that God's spirit has inspired me at times when I have been deep in the study of His Word in regards to a specific topic or just reading the Bible when serious questions have troubled me. I would NOT consider myself a prophet, tho!! Just a humble follower of Jesus who He has had pity on and helped find answers that I needed at the time. Open ended....as I believe that that same inspiration, or whatever one wishes to lable it, is still available to me!! A thought just occured to me.......in order to feel someone's breath.... you must be CLOSE to that person!! Physically close, practically kissing. So, in my opinion, to be in a position to be inspired by God, you must be in close communication w/ Him, or it isn't going to happen!! ANYONE is free to be that close to God!!!

In defense of Ogler, what I understood from his post is that he is amazed at the resentment some people harbor against Ellen White and her writings. That is all that I understood him to say......not anything against your original post. IMO. I, too, find that amazing. Of course, she and her writings were not "shoved dowm my throat" when I was growing up nor was she venerated as being in the place of God, so to speak. I think that that may have something to do with it. Then, there is the fact that "prophets" are generally not appreciated and are maligned. Just as an aside to the original topic which is inspriation!!

The prophecy in Joel about "your young men and young women prophecying" in the last days has always intreged me!! I don't have a good understanding or idea about who or what time frame that would fit, tho as we have been "in the last days" for a very long time, now. I have always wondered if Ellen White's ministry was in partial fulfillment of that prophecy. But, now that so much time has passed, I am inclined to think that it may have another meaning or potential fulfillment.

In my opinion, there will definitely be other people who will be or have been inspired by God and have or will prophecy at His direction. I don't know if I am aware of anyone who would fit that description, tho. But, God is NOT limited to having withdrawn the spirit of prophecy for this world with the passing of Ellen White!!

That's about all I wanted to say right now. I hope that makes sense to you all. I think that we need to keep an open mind and "test" the messages that come to us to see if they agree with the instructions that the Word of God has already outlined for us in order to correctly identify a true prophet of God.

God Bless you all as we continue to discuss this topic.

Morning Glory

[LifeHiscost]

In communication, what people say between the lines are just as important as the words themselves.

Gerry

Gerry, much as I would like to believe in reading between the lines as a viable source of understanding, I have seen far more miniature holy wars started as a result of individuals believing they had the gift of discernment, especially when that supposed discernment laid out for all to see, the faults and foibles of the perceived miscreants. For the most part reading between the lines does not appear to be inspired by the Holy Spirit.

"Love,.... is ever ready to believe the best of every person." 1 Cor 13:7 AMP

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Are only prophets inspired? Why do you and others make that erroneous assumption? Why do people try to box inspiration in and limit it? Tom

Maybe this could be part of the reason, Tom.

"...and they are assembled against Moses and against Aaron, and say unto them, `Enough of you! for all the company -- all of them [are] holy, and in their midst [is] Jehovah; and wherefore do ye lift yourselves up above the assembly of Jehovah?'

...is it little to you that the God of Israel hath separated you from the company of Israel to bring you near unto Himself, to do the service of the tabernacle of Jehovah, and to stand before the company to serve them? --

and if a strange thing Jehovah do, and the ground hath opened her mouth and swallowed them, and all that they have, and they have gone down alive to Sheol -- then ye have known that these men have despised Jehovah.' " Numbers 16:3,9,30 YLT

"...for we have known Him who is saying, `Vengeance [is] Mine, I will recompense, saith the Lord;' and again, `The Lord shall judge His people;' --

Regards!!