Discuss (if you please)

[Bravus]

Here's a quote from James Carroll:

"A mark of a fundamentalist mindset is that one's own personal virtue is the ultimate value."

Do you agree? Disagree?

[Tom Wetmore]

I think I would have to disagree. First, one has to ask, "A fundamentalist what?" Does this describe fundamentalists of all stripes? Even among fundamentalist christians I don't think all would consider personal virtue, while important, as being the[/] ultimate value. In fact, quite the opposite is most likely true for many.

And second, I would understand "a mark" as a characteristic that would tend to distinguish the set from things not of that set. On that point, I think one can easily find many non-fundamentalists that would consider personal virtue to be the ultimate value. Among secularists, there are many that would deem personal virtue to be the ultimate value. In fact, I think one could easily find that many "liberal" Christians would consider this to be true.

I would be interested to see the context of James Carroll's statement and how he explains it.

Tom

[Neil D]

Quote:

I would be interested to see the context of James Carroll's statement and how he explains it.

Yeah, in this, I would agree with Tom... it kinda depends upon what the context is...I am assuming Fundementalist Christian, however, of late, we have seen fundementalist Muslims, and other religous sects show up on our radar/news as stressing the fundemental values of thier religion

...And ultimately, while the fundementalist Christian would prolly belabor the point that his values are from the bible, in truth, they are the values from the bible that he chooses as important, when in reality, the biblical emphasis may not be in harmony with the fundementalist's values, ie Sabbath vs Sunday, forgiveness vs Law, et al.

I am also assuming that "a mark" is meant to be the telltail sign of someone/something...it is something distinct...I am not all sure that the fundementalist christian has that mark as most fundemental Sunday Christian are pretty much the same.... However, if you want to distinguish various degrees of fundemental obnoxious-ness, Fundy Baptists, JWs, and conservative SDAs can make that obnoxious list quite easily, in my view... LOL

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

"A mark of a fundamentalist mindset is that one's own personal virtue is the ultimate value."

I am not sure I even understand the quote right. A paraphrase might help me. Is this saying, 'the means a fundamentalist measures a person's value is by the observable virtue of the person'?

If that is what it is saying, I guess I would have to say, 'I don't know'. That is not how I measure my value or that of others. Of course, I am not sure how one is determined to be a fundamentalist either.

[Stan]

The hidden meaning of the word Fundamentalist is now being used more to classify someone who has chosen to stop thinking for themselves.

Another way to marginalize someone who perhaps things different, and we can ignore them. ie The Muslim Fundamentalist are responsible for..... etc

I believe in the fundamental principals of mathematics. I have tested, tried and accepted those principals. I do not follow them blindly. Should someone prove one wrong I will evaluate that, best as I am able, and make a decision then.

It is those Christian Fundamentalist again... those who choose not to think.

I find those kind of statement more prevalent in the US media. It also happen more on CA by Americans than other countries.. i.e. that Liberal, Bill Clinton did.... (O he is one of 'those' so you can cast off anything he said... ) and people avoid this issue...

[Dr. Shane]

As much as I dislike labels, I often use them in discussions because we need some base so can exchange ideas. In regard to politics I sometimes use the word fundamentalist to describe a person that sticks close to the fundamentals of their ideology. My usage of the term may be wrong.

I may call someone like Rush Limbaugh a conservative fundamentalist or Micheal Mooore a liberal fundamentalist because they tend to stick close to those respecptive ideologies. However that says nothing about their view of personal virtue being the ultimate value.

[David Koot]

Here's a quote from James Carroll:

"A mark of a fundamentalist mindset is that one's own personal virtue is the ultimate value."

Balderdash.

[Dr. Shane]

Hey!!!! I haven't seen Mr. Koot in here for a while. I thought he might be on an extended honeymoon.

[David Koot]

Hey!!!! I haven't seen Mr. Koot in here for a while. I thought he might be on an extended honeymoon.

Well, there has been an adjustment, indeed! Used to be I could sit at my computer until late, but now, demands have been placed on my spare time! The ball and chain grows longer and heavier! Oh help!

But I will rise again! I trust things will get back to normal once the wife takes me for granted lol

Dave

[jasd]

James Carroll: "Well, embedded in that joke is a central idea: that what matters is not outcome, but purity of intent. A mark of a fundamentalist mindset is that one's own personal virtue is the ultimate value. The American fundamentalist ethos of the Cold War prepared us to destroy the world. In other words, a world absolutely devastated through nuclear war was acceptable as an outcome because it reflected the virtue of our opposition to the evil of communism. Better dead than red."

The indefinite article legitimizes the statement. That would, of course,

not only allow, but demand, that -at times- one might/must rely upon one's own set of values as the ultimate arbiter.

I'm put to mind Patton's quote, "...making the other poor dumb b****d die for his country."

Ultimate value.

[LifeHiscost]

or Micheal Mooore a liberal fundamentalist

Isn't that more correctly stated, "or Michael Mooo"? teehe

[LifeHiscost]

However, if you want to distinguish various degrees of fundemental obnoxious-ness, Fundy Baptists, JWs, and conservative SDAs can make that obnoxious list quite easily, in my view... LOL

And to be sure, you would agree, the way these who are that way(obnoxious-ness) is to show our better part of right-ness by exercizing ridicule.

[LifeHiscost]

Here's a quote from James Carroll:

"A mark of a fundamentalist mindset is that one's own personal virtue is the ultimate value."

Do you agree? Disagree?

To agree would mean to believe that I knew what the ultimate value is and that I knew I had it, no matter what it might be. And if Jesus can be recognized as the epitome of the ultimate value then I would have to say I have Him and I'm getting to know Him.

"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life." 1 John 5:20 KJV

Regards!

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

However, if you want to distinguish various degrees of fundemental obnoxious-ness, Fundy Baptists, JWs, and conservative SDAs can make that obnoxious list quite easily, in my view... LOL

And to be sure, you would agree, the way these who are that way(obnoxious-ness) is to show our better part of right-ness by exercizing ridicule.

Actually, I look at that sort of thing as a boil, something that needs to be exposed by opening it up and airing it out. Others get to see the uglyness of it, and kinda stare at it and make noises like "yech!" or "EWwwwwoooo!!!!".... Of course, those who are that obnoxious usually don't have a clue ....except for a feeling of uneasiness....but they usually ignore it as something of the devil...

[Bravus]

Thanks for an interesting discussion, all, which I kinda hatched then abandoned...

I think what he's saying is that fundamentalism is linked with a very strong and rigid sense of the rightness of one's own beliefs and one's own cause, and the accompanying sense that one's own righteousness makes one's actions right. So a fundamentalist will be willing to do things like 'honour killings' of his own daughter because personal virtue is the ultimate value. But of course it's easier to point outward than inward...

Certainly it's possible to be an 'atheist fundamentalist' - I'd argue that Richard Dawkins approaches that state. So I wasn't aiming to point at any particular people, or to divide the world into particular camps... I just found the idea intriguing. I was actually reminded to come back and check on this thread by reading some of the responses in the 'Inspiration' thread...

[Bravus]

Here's the full interview: http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/174837/tomdispatch_interview_james_carroll_american_fundamentalisms