Gone fishin' for Jesus

[Tom Wetmore]

Jesus said, "I will make you fishers of men."

So, what's your method - net or hook?

If you use a net, what do you do with the odd ones, the junk fish? Have you found a use for them? Or do you reject them and feed them to the gulls?

If not net, what kind of hook? What kind of bait/lure do you use? Do you know what the fish in your pond like to eat? If your bait isn't working, do you quit fishing, go someplace else to fish or change your bait? Are you happiest fishing for just one type of fish? Do you know what you need to do to catch something different?

What do you plan to do with your fish after you catch them?

Tom

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

What a great topic! I don't have answers for most of the questions...except this one:

Quote:

What do you plan to do with your fish after you catch them?

I've observed they're either fried or, if big catches, they get mounted on the wall as trophies.

Another question too: Do you cast from the shore or do you go out in a boat to where more of the fish are swimming?

[Gail]

What do you plan to do with your fish after you catch them?

Eat them up! (Just kidding- but in some cases it seems like it!)

[Tom Wetmore]

tu You are reading my thoughts...

Some sport fishermen also like just fishing so much they do catch and release fishing...

I like your question and offer another alternative, spear fishing which requires actually getting down in the water with the fish to go after them... Sort of incarnational fishing!

Fly fishermen study their fish and spend a whole lot of time carefully preparing and selecting the right flies that they know will get the fish's attention. They have to know what the trout are eating at what time of the year or even the time of day and in the river in question or even on different parts of the river and use the right fly that matches.

Tom

[Gerr]

Jesus said, "I will make you fishers of men."

So, what's your method - net or hook?

If you use a net, what do you do with the odd ones, the junk fish? Have you found a use for them? Or do you reject them and feed them to the gulls?

If not net, what kind of hook? What kind of bait/lure do you use? Do you know what the fish in your pond like to eat? If your bait isn't working, do you quit fishing, go someplace else to fish or change your bait? Are you happiest fishing for just one type of fish? Do you know what you need to do to catch something different?

What do you plan to do with your fish after you catch them?

Tom

"Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Have you understood all these things?" Jesus asked. Mt 13:47-51 NIV

Gerry

[Beryl]

Quote:

What do you plan to do with your fish after you catch them? (Tom)

Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. This is how it will be at the end of the age. (Gerry)

Sure! But how do we tell which are the bad fish? Ah! I think THAT is the job of the Master Fisherman. The job of the apprentice fishermen (and women) is to gather in ALL the fish, and leave it to the Master Fisherman to select the good ones and dispose of the bad ones. After all, His knowledge of each fish is beyond our ability to match!

God bless,

Beryl

[Gerr]

Quote:

What do you plan to do with your fish after you catch them? (Tom)

Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. This is how it will be at the end of the age. (Gerry)

Sure! But how do we tell which are the bad fish? Ah! I think THAT is the job of the Master Fisherman. The job of the apprentice fishermen (and women) is to gather in ALL the fish, and leave it to the Master Fisherman to select the good ones and dispose of the bad ones. After all, His knowledge of each fish is beyond our ability to match!

God bless,

Beryl

Agreed. The ultimate separation is the job of the Master Fisherman. Only He knows the heart. But there are times when the church also has to remove names off the church books.

Gerry

[aldona]

Originally Posted By: Beryl

Quote:

What do you plan to do with your fish after you catch them? (Tom)

Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. This is how it will be at the end of the age. (Gerry)

Sure! But how do we tell which are the bad fish? Ah! I think THAT is the job of the Master Fisherman. The job of the apprentice fishermen (and women) is to gather in ALL the fish, and leave it to the Master Fisherman to select the good ones and dispose of the bad ones. After all, His knowledge of each fish is beyond our ability to match!

God bless,

Beryl

Agreed. The ultimate separation is the job of the Master Fisherman. Only He knows the heart. But there are times when the church also has to remove names off the church books.

Gerry

What troubles me about this analogy is that the fish don't seem to have any choice. They are caught by the "fishers of men" and then sorted out and accepted/rejected by the Master Fisherman. They have no say in the process.

Is this starting to look like the Calvinistic doctrine of predestination?

What if a fish really wants to be caught, but there are no fishermen/women in its area?

What if a fish is really glad that it has been caught, but is then put in the "reject" basket by the Master Fisherman because it is unsuitable for His purposes?

aldona

[Gerr]

Jesus used the parable, I didn't. But that's the shortcoming of parables. They can't walk on all fours. We cannot use every detail of a parable to teach truth. I believe the main point of the parable of the net is that all kinds of people respond to the gospel (hauled in by the net), some sincere, some not sincere.

Gerry

[monica]

We cannot use every detail of a parable to teach truth.

I agree. Only allegories can be used like that, all their details having a significance. There are a few allegories in the Bible.

[Tom Wetmore]

Just let me with you...

I had thought of taking this topic in a couple of different directions, but...

I think methods of capturing the attention of people and how best to bring them into and keep them in the life boat and what to do with them once you have them once you have done so are all useful topics of discussion that readily launch from this metaphor of Jesus. But most of us are are not fishermen and understand little about it other than having a taste for seafood on occasion, all of which may well be lost on vegetarians...

Well for what it is worth, here is the different direction I was going to try to steer this discussion. I was thinking about the context of this call of Jesus to these fishermen to be his disciples. Try to imagine it from their perspective. I doubt the direction we typically take this idea even entered their minds.

As I heard it explained once, most all Jewish boys were educated at the feet of one of the teachers of the law, a rabbi. This was not simply reading, writing and arithmetic. It was learning Jewish history and religion. They would learn sitting at the feet of the rabbi for a number of years and those with promise would stay longer and become his select disciples and eventually the best would become rabbis themselves. The disciples followed the rabbi everywhere and did everything he did. Those with less promise would go as far as they could and if not selected to advance onward would go back to their family trade or to become an apprentice of some other tradesman. Others from family or financial necessity would also return home. They would follow a more mundane calling.

Quite probably this was the circumstance that these men found themselves when this man who was apparently a rabbi showed up down at the docks. They had lost their chance to advance in the schools of the rabbis. They were dropouts or rejects. Imagine their surprise to hear the rabbinical call to discipleship from this stranger - "Come, follow me." No wonder they didn't hesitate and left their nets and followed after him. They were getting a second chance! And lest they doubt that they had what it took, Jesus added, "You fishermen have skills and talents and experiences that are of value to me." Ordinary men not turned into something totally different and foreign to their frame of reference, but taken for the talents they already had and put to use in God's kingdom. And they would still understand how to relate the kingdom of God to their fellow citizens of their fishing community, because they were now fishermen of the kingdom. Ordinary things with extra-ordinary meaning.

The other quite different direction was to take a look more in depth at the Greek word used here for "fishers", halieus which bears no apparent resemblance or relationship to the word for fish, ichthys. In fact, the word halieus is derived from hals, the Greek word for salt and the verb form, halizō meaning "to salt". These men were salting the fish they had caught to preserve them so the fish would not spoil. They were salters. Jesus said to them, "Come follow me, I will make you salters of men."

Salt was a vital and important and a very valuable commodity of the day. So valuable it was used as currency of exchange. (Roman soldiers were paid with salt. The Latin word for salt is the origin of the English word for salary.) Salt is essential for life. It was not simply used to season food. It was the essential preservative for food to save it for later use. Salted meat would keep for a very long time. It was even used in purification rituals. The sacrifices were also sprinkled with salt. Salt was symbolic of lasting concord and played an important role in the ratification of compacts or covenants. It was also symbolic of health and vigor of the soul and of wisdom and grace in speech.

Do you think these former fishermen had a good understanding of what Jesus was saying to them both here and later telling them they were the salt of the earth?

Tom

[Dr. Shane]

Regardless if they use a net, rod or spear... if more believers were fulfilling the great commission, we would have a much different church.

[JeriAnne]

Tom, I found that little vignette really interesting! So like God to choose ordinary people doing ordinary jobs and turn it all into something glorious!

It gives me hope that my ordinariness might be useful too!

I did have to smile at the image of disciples salting people! Somehow my idea of being a part of God's family doesn't really include an image of salted herring!

But I understand what you are saying and know that if they considered salt of value than it was a good metaphor for Jesus to use. He speaks in the context of the day so the people he is talking to feel an instant connection with His message!

Fishing and boats and nets and salting involve hard work and a contest with the elements of nature! Reaching people takes similar energy and a deep sense of the value they hold.

I learned a lot the year I decided to live without a watch or clock! I told God I wanted to understand HIS timing and would trust that in all areas of my life it would prove itself! Then I asked Him to show me what was needed in the moment. Sometimes I started to be upset because of changes in my schedule or interruptions to what I thought was needed. But then I would pray, "Help me to see this as YOU see it!" And I began to notice a pattern. God usually interjected unusual timings into my day for 1 of 3 reasons.

1. He wanted to teach me something about HIMSELF

2. He wanted to show me something about MYSELF

3. He wanted me to come in contact with someone else

Each interruption took on new meaning as I started to look for the reason behind it. Often it involved others who needed someone to fish for them! Sometimes it was because I needed to fished for!!!!

I don't think we can always know what is needed. But we can listen responsively.

Sometimes there isn't much we can do to change a persons life, but we can always share the moment lovingly.

I heard a story in the news about a new sport that many women here in the south are taking up. I can't remember the exact word they called it but what they were doing was catching cat fish with their bare hands! Reaching down into the mucky waters and bringing up the most amazing fish! They do it in groups of 3 or 4 and they actually make it look fun!

DEaling with people seems most like that! No hooks, no confining nets, just hands reaching into the dark and murky waters and getting up close and personal with those big fish!

I really don't know what they do with them after they catch them! But they seem to find the catch exhilerating!

It isn't easy being open to the pain of those around us. It demands that we have some sort of honest handle on our own pain. And that we are willing to connect with it often! Knowing the pain our Creator experienced during His fishing and salting time here on earth, helps us to stay hopeful through the tears and trusting in the One who has perfect timing for our tears and our laughter!

We are all in this together! There is nothing so special about any of us that we don't need to be fished for and salted!

[David Koot]

The other quite different direction was to take a look more in depth at the Greek word used here for "fishers", halieus which bears no apparent resemblance or relationship to the word for fish, ichthys. In fact, the word halieus is derived from hals, the Greek word for salt and the verb form, halizō meaning "to salt". These men were salting the fish they had caught to preserve them so the fish would not spoil. They were salters. Jesus said to them, "Come follow me, I will make you salters of men."

While we can assume that the apostles discipled those whom they worked with, the etymological connection suggested here is inaccurate in terms of the meaning of the word, alieus. For some centuries before Christ, the word had meant, 'fishermen' (plural) . There is a suggestion that the origin of the word had to do with the ocean (where the fisherman plied their trade). However, the word as used in Jesus' day, and for centuries before, did not mean or pertain to 'salt.' It would not be accurate to say that the use of the word, 'alieus' referred to the disciples' 'salting' their 'catch.' The Greek word appears in the same semantic domain as other words which pertain to 'catching' or 'snaring' animals. That figurative use of the word reportedly dates back at least to the time of Pythagoras. See Kittel's article on the Greek word, for example.

Dave

Salt was a vital and important and a very valuable commodity of the day. So valuable it was used as currency of exchange. (Roman soldiers were paid with salt. The Latin word for salt is the origin of the English word for salary.) Salt is essential for life. It was not simply used to season food. It was the essential preservative for food to save it for later use. Salted meat would keep for a very long time. It was even used in purification rituals. The sacrifices were also sprinkled with salt. Salt was symbolic of lasting concord and played an important role in the ratification of compacts or covenants. It was also symbolic of health and vigor of the soul and of wisdom and grace in speech.

Do you think these former fishermen had a good understanding of what Jesus was saying to them both here and later telling them they were the salt of the earth?

Tom

[aldona]

My fellow classical music geeks and I were performing Schubert songs on the weekend...and the lyrics of one of the songs reminded me of this thread.

Original German text (Wie Ulfru fischt, D.525):

Quote:

Die Angel zuckt, die Rute bebt,

Doch leicht fährt sie heraus.

Ihr eigensinn'gen Nixen gebt

Dem Fischer keinen Schmaus.

Was frommet ihm sein kluger Sinn,

Die Fische baumeln spottend hin;

Er steht am Ufer fest gebannt,

Kann nicht ins Wasser, ihn hält das Land.

Die glatte Fläche kräuselt sich,

Vom Schuppenvolk bewegt,

Das seine Glieder wonniglich

In sichern Fluten regt.

Forellen zappeln hin und her,

Doch bleibet des Fischers Angel leer,

Sie fühlen, was die Freiheit ist,

Fruchtlos ist Fischers alte List.

Die Erde ist gewaltig schön,

Doch sicher ist sie nicht.

Es senden Stürme Eiseshöh'n,

Der Hagel und der Frost zerbricht

Mit einem Schlage, einem Druck,

Das gold'ne Korn, der Rosen Schmuck;

Den Fischlein unter'm weichen Dach,

Kein Sturm folgt ihnen vom Lande nach.

English translation, for the rest of us :

Quote:

The rod quivers, the line trembles,

But it comes up easily.

You capricious water-sprites

Give the fisherman no feast.

What use is his cunning?

The fish glide away mockingly;

He stands spellbound on the shore,

He cannot enter the water, the land holds him fast.

The smooth surface is ruffled,

Disturbed by the scaly shoals

That swim blithely

In the safe water.

Trout dart to and fro,

But the fisherman's rod stays empty.

They feel what freedom is,

The fisherman's well-tried guile is in vain.

The earth is surpassingly beautiful,

But safe it is not.

Storms blow from the icy peaks,

Hail and frost destroy

At one stroke, with one blow,

The golden corn, the roses' beauty;

The little fish beneath their soft roof

Are pursued by no storm from the land.

I think that says a mouthful...about fishermen and fishing and freedom and what God created fish for and where they are supposed to stay...

aldona

(running for cover, having DEFINITELY taken the fishing analogy WAY too far...)

[Tom Wetmore]

LOL

But I think there is still truth to be mined from this turn of the metaphor... :smilewink:

This all too common experience of fishermen reflects the experience of those attempting to do witnessing/evangelism. The fish show no interest and stay in their world and the fisherman in his.

But here is a clue :Jesusfish:

Incarnational ministry. To really catch a fish you must become a fish.

That reminds me of the illustration of the incarnation that Philip Yancey used in one of his books to show the extreme distance Jesus as God had to travel to become a man in order to save mankind. He described a fish tank filled with tropical fish that he diligently cared for. He said that despite his efforts to provide a perfect environment and diet, caring for every need of the fish, they still were afraid of him and would swim away and hide when he came near to the tank. He determined that the only way he could get it across to those fish that he meant the best for them would be for him to become a fish and enter their world and relate to them as a fish.

Anyway, Aldona... you may have just administered the timely antidote for pedantically precipitated paralysis.

Tom

[aldona]

(Need more music smileys!)

Now I'm going to have that song in my head for the rest of the day...it has such a catchy tune, it belongs up there with Schubert's other famous fishing song, "The Trout" (Die Forelle).

(Same theme...wily fisherman can't catch clever fish so he resorts to devious and underhanded methods... )

I'd better stop, before the music police come and start burning my classical CD collection - a lot of rock music lyrics have been condemned for expressing philosophies far less subversive to so-called religious teachings.

aldona

[Tom Wetmore]

...wily fisherman can't catch clever fish so he resorts to devious and underhanded methods...

...a lot of rock music lyrics have been condemned for philosophies far less subversive to so-called religious teachings.

Hmmmm... Not by me for sure!!!

Now let me see, wily fishers of men not smart enough to catch anything the righteous way but rather resorting to devious and underhanded methods...

Hmmm... Yep, it happens.... :smilewink:

Tom

[Neil D]

Quote:

Now let me see, wily fishers of men not smart enough to catch anything the righteous way but rather resorting to devious and underhanded methods...

Hmmm... Yep, it happens....

Hmmmmm....so this is the reason for evangelistic meetings? Using underhanded methods to bring people into the church? Hmmmmmmmm

Aldonna- you said something that bothers me...

Quote:

What troubles me about this analogy is that the fish don't seem to have any choice. They are caught by the "fishers of men" and then sorted out and accepted/rejected by the Master Fisherman. They have no say in the process.

Is this starting to look like the Calvinistic doctrine of predestination?

What if a fish really wants to be caught, but there are no fishermen/women in its area?

What if a fish is really glad that it has been caught, but is then put in the "reject" basket by the Master Fisherman because it is unsuitable for His purposes?

It occurs to me that while the fish has no choice in his capture, it was God that changed the fish's direction in the water to be caught...After all, God is the one who feeds the sparrow, and He is the One Who holds men captive...The unsuspecting fish, swiming in his school was directed by God into the net or to the hook to get caught...Are you saying that YOUR capture by God is not by your choice? If it is, what is the net that holds you ?

[David Koot]

Hmmmmm....so this is the reason for evangelistic meetings? Using underhanded methods to bring people into the church? Hmmmmmmmm

[LifeHiscost]

That isn't going to happen. And no, the Calvinistic doctrine of predestination is not Scriptural. It depends on a distortion of Scripture, for example, Rom. 8, "for whom He foreknew, He predestined . . ." That is very clear as it reads, and the Greek is clear as it reads: 'proginoskw,' to know ahead of time.

The ones who are saved at last are the ones who want to be saved and who are willing to follow through with it. Those persons, God knows ahead of time. His 'predestination' of these souls is based upon his knowledge of the choices they will make. Nothing arbitrary about it. Dave

So good of you, David, to make that so plain. For any Christian who has a heart relationship with Jesus, it would seem obvious that allure is a far more appropriate word than lure when referring to Jesus' methods of winning people to Himself.

"When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice." John 10:4 NASB

"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd." John 10:16 NASB

As well as;

"For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality... " Deuteronomy 10:16

NASB

Blessings!