New Jerusalem

[Dr. Shane]

Imagine it...

• no sea (21:1)

• no more curse (22:3)

• no tears (21:4)

• no death (21:4)

• no pain (21:4)

• no sorrow (21:4)

• no night (22:5)

• no temple (21:22)

• no sun (21:23)

• no moon (21:23)

• no impurity (21:27)

• no deceit (21:27)

[Planey]

• no pain (21:4)

If I took a tumble from the top of the stairs shown in the picture, would I really feel no pain?

Graeme

[Dr. Shane]

We can't even imagine paradise, can we? Eyes have not seen nor minds imagined the joy we have awaiting for us.

[jasd]

Beautiful picture - but, given the text which provides the dimensions of the New Jerusalem may we not, in fact, infer a

pyramid rather than a cube?

TIC – as I haven’t the foggiest for certain: just thought I'd throw it out there to be

chewed upon...

[John317]

Rev. 21: 16-17:

The city was shaped like a cube, because it was just as high as it was wide. When the angel measured the city, it was about fifteen hundred miles high and fifteen hundred miles wide. Then the angel measured the wall, and by our measurements it was about two hundred sixteen feet high. (Contemporary English Version)

Doubtless some mathematical wizard could calculate -- if it's not already been done-- how many people such a city could hold and how much space each person would have there.

How much land does a man really need, Leo?

[Dr. Shane]

If the city is 216 feet tall and each floor is 12' high. That would bee 18 floors

5,280 feet in a mile. That is 7,920,000 feet by 7,920,000 which is 62,726,400,000,000 square feet. 43,560 square feet in an acre is 1,440,000,000 acres per floor. That is 25,920,000,000 acres.

Each floor would be 2,250,000 square miles.

Population density of world's cities

Tokyo 51,462 per sq m

Mexico City 17,200 per sq m

South LA 10,000 per sq m

Using South LA conservative number that allows 22,500,000,000 to live inside the city. That is 22.5 billion people!

That is 15.6 people per acre. An acre can fit eight - 2,000 square feet homes with 3,000 square feet of yard each. So the 22.5 billion number really is conservative. Twice that many people could easily fit inside the city.

[Amelia]

I don't think we get anything more than a room in the new city. But we will have houses elsewhere.

[Dr. Shane]

Let's say there are not multi-level floors but just one floor and various high-rises like Toyko. If the population density in the New Jerusalem is the same as Toyko, that would be 115,789,500,000 saved souls. That is roughly 115.8 billion!

[Planey]

That is roughly 115.8 billion!

What would be a reasonable estimate for the total number of people who have lived on this world since Creation?

Graeme

[Dr. Shane]

wikipedia

Quote:

Estimates of the number of human beings who have ever lived on Earth constitute an extremely large range, with low estimates around 45 billion, and the highest estimates topping out around 125 billion. Many of the more robust estimates fall into the range of 90 to 110 billion humans.

We know that narrow is the way that leads to life and wide is the way that leads to destruction. Most people that have lived will not be inside the city, not because there isn't room, but because they never repented of their sins. The New Jerusalem, like Noah's ark, will have much more room than needed. However that said, John also says he saw "a great multitude which no one could count" (Rev. 7:9). That sounds like billions of people.

[Clio]

More than have ever lived, most likely.

Clio

[Dr. Shane]

The wikipedia estimate is based on the evolution model which would have human history going back further than the Biblical model. It would also not take into account the human race having to start over again after the flood. So the total number of humans ever having lived is probably closer to 50 billion than 100 billion.

[Planey]

I note that the Wikipedia estimates are based on the number of prople in a world where evolution was the governing principle. I believe the number would be significantly lower if we took a recent Creation to be the ruling paradigm.

That being so, should we take it that the New Jerusalem is the size described so it can accommodate every human that has ever existed on this world? If there is not universal salvation (which has been proposed on Club Adventist in the past) then why such a large city? or could, perhaps, those dimensions be symbolic?

Graeme

[Gerr]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. Enough room for my personal Audio-Visual Concert Hall. Wow!!!!

Gerry

[Tom Wetmore]

(Hopping out of the box for quick look around...) Hmmm...

The word for today is - Symbolic

The dimensions, numbers, materials, size, shape, described conditions, etc. - are all symbolically descriptive of God's people, the redeemed people of earth. It is not portraying a literal place of urban habitation. It is describing the inhabitants themselves of the New Earth.

In ancient times a city was a place of safety, a place of protection from all manner of threats - enemies, the elements, wild beasts (Go back a few chapters to see them...) Anyone inside was saved from peril. But at the time described of the New Jerusalem coming down to earth there are no more threats, evil enemies, wild beasts or dangers of any sort. And God's people have already been saved. There is no more need of a city of refuge in the New Earth. But God's perfectly saved (safe) people re-occupy the earth without worry of any threat to their safety ever again.

Carry on!

Tom

[Dr. Shane]

What isn't symbolic is the list of characteristics the thread was started with.

[Tom Wetmore]

Well, maybe 3 or 4 out of 12... OK, let's see now -

no sea (21:1) -- Where are the whales going to live? Is God having a do-over of creation when He recreates the earth? Or is He going to create a whole new eco-system? See Genesis 1:9 about the original creation of the gathered waters called "seas".

The word "sea" has a specific symbolic significance in Revelation.

no more curse (22:3) OK, there's one I would like to take literally...

no tears (21:4) - If so literally, my eyes will dry out without tears. And what about tears of joy?

no death (21:4) - Here's #2... I think that is the biggy! Although I expect plants will have to die to keep us living...

no pain (21:4) - How will I know if I bump my head or stub my toe? So is God going to rewire my nervous system?

no sorrow (21:4) - I expect to feel some serious sorrow if any of my loved ones are missing...

no night (22:5) - I assume you expect that God will redo the solar system with two suns, one on each side of the earth, or brighten the moon's reflection... Oh that's right, no moon either... never mind...

no temple (21:22) - Well, actually there is a temple, read the same verse, second part..."Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple"... Sort of sounds like "temple" is symbolic of something...

no sun (21:23) -- Actually the correct reading is that the city does not need the sun because God is bright and warm enough... And not the total nonexistence of the sun and moon... Back to that re-do of creation - same as before or something completely different?

no moon (21:23) -- Ditto...

no impurity (21:27) I can see both symbolic significance and literal truth...

no deceit (21:27) OK that's a definite...

Tom

[Dr. Shane]

The sea, as we know it, covers 2/3 of the planet. It is a result of the flood which was a result of sin. Whales don't need 2/3 of the planet to live. While I am sure there will be bodies of waters, I doubt the sea will exist as the salty water that covers most of our planet.

No more tears, of course, refers to sadness. That is message the other was trying to communicate and can be taken quite literally.

Our diet in heaven will be the same as Eden - nuts, grain and fruit. While, technically, the fruit dies, the plant that bares them continues to live.

Pain is the nervous system's way of telling us something is wrong. In the New Earth, nothing will go wrong. We will be perfect beings living in a perfect environment.

There may be a period of mourning upon arriving in heaven. We are not told that. However when viewing endless time of century after century without end, there will be no sorrow on an eternal scale.

"Actually the correct reading is that the city does not need the sun because God is bright and warm enough... And not the total nonexistence of the sun and moon..."

That is what I have understood is that there will be no night because we will be in the presence of God. Thus there will be no need for the sun and moon. This does tie into creation a bit. Did God create the sun and moon during creation week or appoint them a purpose during creation week? Those that believe He only appointed them a purpose, now see that purpose no longer appointed.

No temple seems to mean, no earthly temple. The earthly temple was symbolic of the heavenly temple.

So the way I read it, it seems like the apostle was trying to express divine things in a human language and for the most part we can take it literally.

[Tom Wetmore]

...So the way I read it, it seems like the apostle was trying to express divine things in a human language and for the most part we can take it literally.

To express divine things in human terms is of necessity a symbolic representation of a reality beyond our human comprehension...

A primary rule of interpretation and an essential key to understanding Revelation is that everything is symbolic, even that which might seem and be reasonably taken as literal. Literal and symbolic meaning are not mutually exclusive.

Tom