How Should Adventists View Modern Israel?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The same with James's address of his book to "the twelves tribes scattered abroad," when in all likelihood the "twelve tribes" no longer even existed at the time he wrote any more than they exist at the present moment.

One of God's promises to Jacob was, "Your descendants will also be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south; and in you and in your descendants shall all the families of the earth be blessed." (Gen 28:14 NASB) I believe that God has kept that promise to Jacob even though his descendants were disobedient to God...

I would like to know how you view the modern state of Israel. Do you believe it is in any way a fulfillment of God's promise in Ezekiel 37: 21 (cf. Deut. 30:1, 2) to "gather them from every side and bring them into their own land"?

[Ron Amnsn]

I would like to know how you view the modern state of Israel. Do you believe it is in any way a fulfillment of God's promise in Ezekiel 37: 21 (cf. Deut. 30:1, 2) to "gather them from every side and bring them into their own land"?

I don't have much more to say on that topic than what I said in the last paragraph of my post #145616 - 11/28/07 03:20 AM. Did you want part of that clarified?

[Ron Amnsn]

You are right that the Bible does not contain the words, "God's new Israel," but the Bible does contain verses that clearly refer to gentile Christians as being "Abraham's descendants," "heirs according to the promise [made to Abraham]," which is virtually the same as calling them spiritual Israelites:

(1) Gal. 3: 29-- "If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed [descendants], and heirs according to the promise" (Gal. 3: 29).

In other words, what's important to God is whether a person has faith in Christ, and not whether he is physically descended from Abraham.

[David Koot]

I just got back from attending a seminar out of town. Had to leave early because needed at home. I have followed this discussion with some interest. I see some points which may call for further research or clarification. Among those points are statements or assertions about the meaning of certain words in the Greek NT. Because of the volume of material in these posts, addressing the points in detail will no doubt be somewhat tedious, but I will take a whack at it this week.

[rd151]

I believe if Adventists are honest about what sister White really wrote they would have to admit she wrote that Jerusalem would NEVER be built up. And this was pretty much what every bible preacher's thoughts were in sister White's time.For back then there were no jews in what is now called modern Israel.Sister White was simply wrong as were a lot of good people back then. Israel has indeed been built up into a modern thriving city and country.The question is, will God rescue Israel as it is predicted in Zechariah chapter 14 or not. I'll leave that up for discussion.

[David Koot]

I believe if Adventists are honest about what sister White really wrote they would have to admit she wrote that Jerusalem would NEVER be built up.

I have read references in the SOP, as well as the Bible, that the TEMPLE would not be rebuilt. However, I don't recall seeing anything to the effect that the CITY would not be rebuilt. I had thought that both Scripture and SOP are silent on that question. Jesus did say, "Your house will be left to you desolate," but I had not understood that as applying to the physical buildings in Jerusalem. If you are aware of statements which say otherwise, please let me know, and do be so kind as to provide cites for reference. Thanks.

Dave

[Woody]

YES Dave ... I have recently been seeing a lot of unsubstantiated claims about Ellen White. I don't think that serves ANY cause good.

[rd151]

"I also saw that Old Jerusalem NEVER would be built up; and that Satan was doing his utmost to lead the minds of the children of the Lord into these things now, in the gathering time, to keep them from throwing their whole interest into the present work of the Lord, and to cause them to neglect the necessary preparation for the day of the Lord." (A sketch of the Christian experience and views of Ellen White page 62)

My note: Notice that sister White said the city would never be built up.We know that is not the case today

[rd151]

"I also saw that Old Jerusalem NEVER would be built up; and that Satan was doing his utmost to lead the minds of the children of the Lord into these things now, in the gathering time, to keep them from throwing their whole interest into the present work of the Lord, and to cause them to neglect the necessary preparation for the day of the Lord." (A sketch of the Christian experience and views of Ellen White page 62)

My note: Notice that sister White said the city would never be built up.We know that is not the case today

[Woody]

About your quote ... the Appendix states this ...

Quote:

PAGE 75: DUTY TO GO TO OLD JERUSALEM.--MRS. WHITE REFERS TO ERRONEOUS VIEWS THEN HELD BY A VERY FEW. THE NEXT YEAR, IN THE REVIEW AND HERALD OF OCTOBER 7, 1851, JAMES WHITE WRITES OF "THE DISTRACTING, UNPROFITABLE VIEWS RELATIVE TO OLD JERUSALEM AND THE JEWS, ETC., THAT ARE AFLOAT AT THE PRESENT TIME," AND OF "THE STRANGE NOTIONS THAT SOME HAVE RUN INTO, THAT THE SAINTS HAVE YET TO GO TO OLD JERUSALEM. ETC., ETC." {EW 300.5}

[Woody]

The quotes below reflect her thoughts well on this topic. I think it is very good reading. She clearly identifies what our real purpose is regarding Old Jerusalem.

" How many there are who feel that it would be a good thing to tread the soil of old Jerusalem, and that their faith would be greatly strengthened by visiting the scenes of the Saviour's life and death! But old Jerusalem will never be a sacred place until it is cleansed by the refining fire from heaven. The darkest blot of guilt rests upon the city that refused the light of Christ. Do we want to walk in the footsteps of Jesus? We need not seek out the paths in Nazareth, Bethany, and Jerusalem. We shall find the footprints of Jesus by the sick-bed, by the side of suffering humanity, in the hovels of the poverty-stricken and distressed. We may walk in these footsteps, comforting the suffering, speaking words of hope and comfort to the despondent. Doing as Jesus did when he was upon earth, we shall walk in his blessed steps. Jesus said, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me." When the sin-cursed earth is purified from every stain of sin; when the Mount of Olives is rent asunder, and becomes an immense plain; when the holy city of God descends upon it,--the land that is now called the Holy Land will indeed become holy. But God's cause and work will not be advanced by making pilgrimages to Jerusalem." RH June 9, 1896 EGW.

Good reading wasn't it.?

[olger]

Hans LaRondelle mentioned a quote to me regarding Palestine and the Jews. Some early Adventists thought to journey to Israel to enter into deeper communion with God and she wrote "Don't do it. You cannot experience God's blessing in a land that is under His curse." Something to that effect...

oG

[olger]

YES. That's it, Redwood. Thanks,

olger

[Woody]

Beat you to the punch by 18 seconds. lol

By the way ... I don't like the characterization of laughing. I have no control over that when I put l.o.l.

What's goin on here.

[John317]

"I also saw that Old Jerusalem NEVER would be built up; and that Satan was doing his utmost to lead the minds of the children of the Lord into these things now, in the gathering time, to keep them from throwing their whole interest into the present work of the Lord, and to cause them to neglect the necessary preparation for the day of the Lord." (A sketch of the Christian experience and views of Ellen White page 62)

My note: Notice that sister White said the city would never be built up.We know that is not the case today

You need to read the whole passage in Early Writings, p. 75, 76 and check out the note in the appendix. There were those who believed that before Christ returned the saints would go to Old Jerusalem.

Ellen White wrote, "Then I was pointed to some who are in the great error of believing that it is their duty to go to Old Jerusalem and think that they have a work to do there before the Lord comes. Such a view is calculated to take the mind and interest from the present work of the Lord, under the message of the third angel; for those who think that they are not yet to to go Jerusalem will have their mind there, and heir means will be withheld from the cause of present truth to get themselves and others there. I saw that such a mission would accomplish no real good, that it would take a long while to make a very few of the Jews believe even in the first advent of Christ, much more in the second advent. I saw that Satan had greatly deceived some in this thing and that souls all around them in this land could be helped by them and led to keep the commandments of God, but they were leaving them to perish. I also saw that Old Jerusalem never would be built up; and that Satan was doing his utmost to lead the minds of the children of the Lord into the things now, in the gathering time, to keep them from throwing their whole interests into the present work of the Lord, and to cause them to neglect the necessary preparation for the day of the Lord."

It shows that Ellen White's statement has nothing to do with the modern building of Jerusalem. She was talking about the fact that the plan of certain Adventist "saints" to return and rebuild "Old Jerusalem" and convert the Jews would never succeed or happen. That is the context.

[Robert]

Where is the "It is written" or "Thus saith the Lord" showing that God has permanently abandoned Israel as a Nation?

As a nation Israel was rejected when she persistently and ultimately rejected Christ. When the leadership denied Christ's resurrection this was the ultimate rejection.

No longer does God work through the Jews as a nation because as a nation they rejected Christ. The preaching of the gospel has gone to the Gentile Christian world. Individually Jews can be saved if they accept Christ.

[Robert]

When taken in context Romans 9-11 show that the "children of promise" are the actual descendants of Jacob and those who are grafted in to Israel by faith in Jesus.

Gal 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance [heaven] depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise. 19 What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions [to make sin into transgression] until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was put into effect through angels by a mediator. 20 A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one. 21 Is the law, therefore, opposed to the promises of God? Absolutely not! For if a law had been given that could impart life, then righteousness would certainly have come by the law. 22 But the Scripture declares that the whole world [both Jew and Gentile] is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge until Christ that we might be justified by faith . 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

The Jew must accept Christ or he will remain under law. If he remains under law he must take the 2nd death (the curse of the law). Those who reject Christ desire to be under law. What does the law say?

"Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." [Gal 3:10]

Since all have sinned and fall short of God's love, none can be saved through law. Therefore the Jew who rejects Christ is under the curse. The Jew, as the Gentile, has two options:

1] Christ and life

2] Leglism and death

[Clio]

Originally Posted By: Ron Ammundsen

Where is the "It is written" or "Thus saith the Lord" showing that God has permanently abandoned Israel as a Nation?

As a nation Israel was rejected when she persistently and ultimately rejected Christ. When the leadership denied Christ's resurrection this was the ultimate rejection.

No longer does God work through the Jews as a nation because as a nation they rejected Christ. The preaching of the gospel has gone to the Gentile Christian world. Individually Jews can be saved if they accept Christ.

Are you saying Abba's promises to Israel were nullified then?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

As a nation Israel was rejected when she persistently and ultimately rejected Christ. When the leadership denied Christ's resurrection this was the ultimate rejection.

No longer does God work through the Jews as a nation because as a nation they rejected Christ. The preaching of the gospel has gone to the Gentile Christian world. Individually Jews can be saved if they accept Christ.

Are you saying Abba's promises to Israel were nullified then?

Abba's promises have been fulfilled "in Christ"!

Heb 10:5 Therefore' date=' when He comes into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering Thou hast not desired, But a body Thou hast prepared for Me.....9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Thy will.” He takes away the first [covenant'] in order to establish the second [covenant]. 10 By this will [by Christ's doing and dying] we have been [past tense] sanctified [set apart] through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

You see the old covenant is based on the promise of the people to "obey and live". That covenant was faulty because it was based on human promises. In other words, "God, you give us your law and we will keep it and in return you owe us heaven." So God said, "Okay, but if you disobey you must die." What did they say? "All the Lord has said we will do"!

What's the new covenant? God promises salvation "in Christ" [see Hebrews 10:5-10 above]. Those who remain under the old covenant [salvation by law] are rejecting Christ. The promise to Abraham has been fulfilled "in Christ".

I think I answered your question?

[jasd]

Sorry, though I am very much interested in the subject,

I've been seldom at this 'puter for pressing reasons. That said, forgive me for not having yet

reviewed the entirety of this thread.

Quote:

Quote:Clio

Are you saying Abba's promises to Israel were nullified then?

...to which you replied,

Quote:

Quote:Robert

Abba's promises have been fulfilled "in Christ"!

...

You see the old covenant is based on the promise of the people to "obey and live".

I take it, per the matter at hand, you make little or no distinction between ‘covenants’ and ‘promises’.

Is that so? or is it simply that you were a bit too immersed in Covenants to have ‘picked-up’ on Clio’s use of “Abba’s promises to Israel”?