Celtic Christianity vs Augustinian Doctrine

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I've been reading a book, LISTENING FOR THE HEARTBEAT OF GOD, which has interested me very much.

It's about Celtic Christianity vs *Mainstream* Christianity. I like what it says about a lot of things, but this really caught my attention:

Quote:

Pelagius (a Celtic Christian theologian) maintained that the image of God can be seen in every newborn child and that, although obscured by sin, it exists at the heart of every person, waiting to be released through the grace of God.

Augustine, on the other hand, taught that a child is born sinful, and that the image of God could be restored only through the Church and its sacraments. And it seems that most of Christianity (including SDA) follow closely what Augustine purported (although I do not know about the sacraments that Adventism might have.)

I thought this was very interesting as well

Quote:

You will realize that doctrines are inventions of the human mind, as it tries to penetrate the mystery of God. You will realize that Scripture itself is the work of human minds, recording the example and teaching of Jesus. Thus it is not what you believe the matters; it is how you respond with your heart and your actions. It is not believing in Christ that matters; it is becoming like him.

Since Christianity had been brought (so it is thought) by Christian Roman soldiers in the late 200AD-early 300AD, the Christianity shared would seem to be rather a pure form of what was meant by being a Christian. When Rome was sacked in 410, most of the Roman soldiers left, and also left the young Christian Church. So the Celts were left with a more or less non-conforming attitude toward the theology coming out of Rome over the next 500 years.

I like the idea of seeing God in nature. It does not mean God IS nature, but the relationship is so closely aligned, it *must* be true. St Patrick said that all created things carry within them the grace and goodness of God. Celtic Christianity makes a connection to between the spiritual and the material. Western Christianity is mostly frightened by the idea that within the creation there is something of the uncreated, that is, God.

Another thing I really like about Celtic Christianity is the "Christocentric" belief that Christ is everywhere - that there is not such a huge chasm between earth and heaven that I've always been taught. It has always felt to me that my prayers were somehow misdirected or not loud enough or important enough to be heard by God because He was too far away - up in heaven, that mysterious place *up there somewhere*.....

Quote:

Christ be with me, Christ within me.

Christ behind me, Christ before me.

Christ beside me, Christ to win me.

Christ to comfort and restore me,

Christ beneath me, Christ above me,

Christ in quiet, Christ in danger.

Christ in hearts of all that love me,

Christ in mouth of friend and stranger.

The book gives the text, Acts 17:16-34, and on that, it states:

Quote:

The Celtic mission's proclamation of the gospel had led to a knowledge of the Word that had always been in the people, a naming of the light that had always been theirs because it is the light that enlightens every person who comes into the work. The gospel was like a grace of self-revelation. It freed them to become more truly, rather than less truly, themselves.

~*~*~*~*~

(Sorry.....I seldom write so much....)

[Raphael]

Quote:

Pelagius (a Celtic Christian theologian) maintained that the image of God can be seen in every newborn child and that, although obscured by sin, it exists at the heart of every person, waiting to be released through the grace of God.

Rudywoofs, based on the quote above, I fully agree with what Pelagius maintains. God's imprint is most apparent at lower intelligences especially among the unintelligent such as clouds, trees, lakes and stars. Many even flee the community of intelligences to find solace in this 'nature.'

But I suppose, if a single being of intelligence is fully imprinted by God, than he or she would excel in 'glory' against all 'nature' combined.

God bless,

Raphael

[Woody]

Quote:

You will realize that doctrines are inventions of the human mind, as it tries to penetrate the mystery of God. You will realize that Scripture itself is the work of human minds, recording the example and teaching of Jesus. Thus it is not what you believe the matters; it is how you respond with your heart and your actions. It is not believing in Christ that matters; it is becoming like him.

Thank you Pam. I really enjoyed wrapping my mind around this. I think this has a lot of truth in it. I will certainly reflect more on this. Could you please provide the page number and author of this quote?

Talking about deep .......... I should have known that something good like this would come from you. Thanks.

Perhaps we should ask our Celtic expert ... Jason ... about this. Coming from Ireland he should have a good fresh perspective.

Slan .........

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

that quote was on page 11.

The more I read about Celtic Christianity the more *right* it seems, except for the Sabbath which they still keep on Sunday. I think Augustine belonged to the pious, you-never-can-do-anything- right type of Christianity...the type that advocated and advanced the mainstream Catholic traditions of the time.

The author of this book is Rev. Dr. Philip Newell. He belongs to the Church of Scotland and was also the Warden of Iona Abbey (now THAT's a place I'd like to visit!).

[John317]

Actually there are a number of beliefs that Adventists have in common with Palagius. For instance, we also deny that sin or Adam's guilt are inherited. As far as this teaching is concerned, we are more in line with Palagius' teachings than with Augustine's.

The following information regarding some of Palagius' teachings are from http://www.bible.ca/cal-history.htm

....History of the Christian Church Vol II P 246 Philip Schaff, "It was the universal faith of the church that man was made in the image of God, pure and holy, and fell by his won guilt. But the extent of sin and the consequences of the fall were not fully discussed before the Pelagius-Augustine controversy in the fifth century."

John Calvin was born in France on July 10, 1509. As a result of his study of the Greek New Testament, Calvin became dissatisfied with and left the Catholic church. Through his influence and teaching, he became the founder of the doctrinal system known as Calvinism.

Calvin did not technically establish a denomination during his lifetime. However, his theology is the basis for the modern day Presbyterian church.

It is somewhat difficult to find a classic five point Calvinist these days. However, almost every religious denomination has adopted a Calvinistic like theology. Even some of the cults have accepted some Calvinistic principles. The Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, believe in the concept of inherited sin.

ISBE, 1979, Depraved. "In the history of theology mankind's depravity has been interpreted as coming from Adam. Augustine, (354-430AD) credited with formulating the concept of original sin, held that Adam's fall corrupted man, making the human race a mass of sin. Man inherited both the tendency to sin and the guilt for Adam's sin, for in him the entire race sinned.

Britannica 1979 VII, Pg837-8, "Pelagianism...(Palagius 370-440AD) rejecting the arguments of those who claimed that they sinned because of human weakness, he insisted that God made human beings free to choose between good and evil and that sin is voluntary. Celestius, a disciple of Pelagius, denied the church's doctrine of original sin and the necessity of infant Baptism" "He (Pelagius) blamed Rome's moral laxity on the doctrine of divine grace (as taught by Augustine) He attacked this teaching on the grounds that it imperilled the entire moral law. He thus reasoned that if a man were not himself responsible for his good and evil deeds, there was nothing to restrain him from indulgence in sin. Pelagus soon gained a considerable following at Rome."

...Calvin accurately taught the correct concept of man before the fall: "Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which is good and well-pleasing to God; but yet mutably, so that he might fall from it." "God has endued that will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced for, by any necessity of nature, determined to do good or evil." (Westminster Confession of Faith) This freewill nature of man did not change when Adam and Eve sinned but is the same today.

[John317]

The true Saint Patrick, not the fictitious one, was the "father of Irish Christianity," belonged to the Celtic race and also seems to have had a lot in common with at least some of Palagius' beliefs.

You might be interested in a fascinating book entitled, Truth Triumphant, by B.G. Wilkinson, an SDA historian. It contains quite a few well-documented chapters about Patrick and the Celtic church. You might be able to get it through Leaves-of-Autumn or TEACH publishers.

This book that tells the amazing story of Celtic Christianity and of how it lost its independence may also be accessed at the following link:

http://books.google.com/books?id=zUl1pm1yNUwC&dq=truth+triumphant&pg=PP1&ots=Gdi9kjq8d5&sig=p2xGwQiGm9uegvD07v9EH1noiK4&prev=http://www.google.com/search%3Fclient%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26q%3DTruth%2BTriumphant%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8&sa=X&oi=print&ct=title&cad=one-book-with-thumbnail

[Woody]

that quote was on page 11.

The more I read about Celtic Christianity the more *right* it seems, except for the Sabbath which they still keep on Sunday. I think Augustine belonged to the pious, you-never-can-do-anything- right type of Christianity...the type that advocated and advanced the mainstream Catholic traditions of the time.

The author of this book is Rev. Dr. Philip Newell. He belongs to the Church of Scotland and was also the Warden of Iona Abbey (now THAT's a place I'd like to visit!).

Thanks Pam.

As perhaps you have heard also .... I have read in places that St. Patrick was a Seventh day Sabbath keeper. So there are a lot of connections.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

And it seems that most of Christianity (including SDA) follow closely what Augustine purported

There is a lot of issues, including original sin, where Adventists do not embrace the teachings of Augustine.

Quote:

I like the idea of seeing God in nature. It does not mean God IS nature, but the relationship is so closely aligned, it *must* be true.

Nature testifies of God and tells us some things about God. However nature is not God and God is not nature. God is the Creator and nature is the creation. This can be compared to Lee Iaccoca and the Ford Mustang. Iaccoca is not a Mustang and a Mustang is not Iaccoca. However the Mustang does tell us something about Iaccoca. We are not panentheists like Hindus and Universalists.

[John317]

Nature testifies of God and tells us some things about God. However nature is not God and God is not nature. God is the Creator and nature is the creation....

Good and important point. It's one that, tragically, has been lost even on some SDAs.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Nature testifies of God and tells us some things about God. However nature is not God and God is not nature. God is the Creator and nature is the creation. This can be compared to Lee Iaccoca and the Ford Mustang. Iaccoca is not a Mustang and a Mustang is not Iaccoca. However the Mustang does tell us something about Iaccoca. We are not panentheists like Hindus and Universalists.

**pondering**

There's something wrong about that quote but I haven't figured it out yet..

I see God in nature. I do not think God would have only given people ideas of WHAT He could do....I think God meant to have humans *see* Him and know Him. Before Christ came to earth to show us God, man had nature. When Christ went back to heaven, we still have nature. Just because someone says they see God in nature does not mean that God left part of Himself in that mountain, flower, river, bird, etc. I think it *could* mean that He left His fingerprints. BTW, are fingerprints akin to a single individual?

[carolaa]

Nature testifies of God and tells us some things about God. However nature is not God and God is not nature. God is the Creator and nature is the creation. This can be compared to Lee Iaccoca and the Ford Mustang. Iaccoca is not a Mustang and a Mustang is not Iaccoca. However the Mustang does tell us something about Iaccoca. We are not panentheists like Hindus and Universalists.

I'm not sure I get the connection between Lee Ioccoca and Ford Mustangs. I thought he was with Chrysler. Was he with Ford before he went to Chrysler?

[aldona]

I've been reading a book, LISTENING FOR THE HEARTBEAT OF GOD, which has interested me very much.

It's about Celtic Christianity vs *Mainstream* Christianity. I like what it says about a lot of things, but this really caught my attention:

Quote:

Pelagius (a Celtic Christian theologian) maintained that the image of God can be seen in every newborn child and that, although obscured by sin, it exists at the heart of every person, waiting to be released through the grace of God.

Augustine, on the other hand, taught that a child is born sinful, and that the image of God could be restored only through the Church and its sacraments. And it seems that most of Christianity (including SDA) follow closely what Augustine purported (although I do not know about the sacraments that Adventism might have.)

I thought this was very interesting as well

Quote:

You will realize that doctrines are inventions of the human mind, as it tries to penetrate the mystery of God. You will realize that Scripture itself is the work of human minds, recording the example and teaching of Jesus. Thus it is not what you believe the matters; it is how you respond with your heart and your actions. It is not believing in Christ that matters; it is becoming like him.

Since Christianity had been brought (so it is thought) by Christian Roman soldiers in the late 200AD-early 300AD, the Christianity shared would seem to be rather a pure form of what was meant by being a Christian. When Rome was sacked in 410, most of the Roman soldiers left, and also left the young Christian Church. So the Celts were left with a more or less non-conforming attitude toward the theology coming out of Rome over the next 500 years.

I like the idea of seeing God in nature. It does not mean God IS nature, but the relationship is so closely aligned, it *must* be true. St Patrick said that all created things carry within them the grace and goodness of God. Celtic Christianity makes a connection to between the spiritual and the material. Western Christianity is mostly frightened by the idea that within the creation there is something of the uncreated, that is, God.

Another thing I really like about Celtic Christianity is the "Christocentric" belief that Christ is everywhere - that there is not such a huge chasm between earth and heaven that I've always been taught. It has always felt to me that my prayers were somehow misdirected or not loud enough or important enough to be heard by God because He was too far away - up in heaven, that mysterious place *up there somewhere*.....

Quote:

Christ be with me, Christ within me.

Christ behind me, Christ before me.

Christ beside me, Christ to win me.

Christ to comfort and restore me,

Christ beneath me, Christ above me,

Christ in quiet, Christ in danger.

Christ in hearts of all that love me,

Christ in mouth of friend and stranger.

The book gives the text, Acts 17:16-34, and on that, it states:

Quote:

The Celtic mission's proclamation of the gospel had led to a knowledge of the Word that had always been in the people, a naming of the light that had always been theirs because it is the light that enlightens every person who comes into the work. The gospel was like a grace of self-revelation. It freed them to become more truly, rather than less truly, themselves.

~*~*~*~*~

(Sorry.....I seldom write so much....)

Pam...as I read what you had written, I felt a sense of recognition - what you have described of Celtic Christianity sounds exactly like what Quakers believe;

- the idea of "that of God in every man",

- doctrines vs. the response of our heart,

- the spiritual aspect of nature, and its role in leading us to worship of the Creator,

- Christ being everywhere and with us at all times, not "far away up there in heaven",

- Christ as the Light which enlightens all, and the spreading of the gospel as "naming of the light that had always been theirs"...

I'll have to look into Celtic Christianity more - so far the little I've read has had a great impact on me.

Thank you for sharing!

aldona

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

I'm not sure I get the connection between Lee Ioccoca and Ford Mustangs. I thought he was with Chrysler. Was he with Ford before he went to Chrysler?

This could take the thread off topic so I will explain and then tie it back into the thread.

Ioccoca was the creator of the Ford Mustang as much as any one individual can be credited. The Mustang is his legacy. Afterwards he became the President of the Ford Motor Company. In the late 70s he was fired as the president. Not long after he was offer the job as President of Chrysler Motors. As President of Chrysler Motors he saved the company from going bankrupt.

There is no part of Ioccoca in any Ford Mustang. Although one might say his "fingerprints" are all over each one. In the same sense, God is not part of nature but it can be said His "fingerprints" are seen throughout it.