Who Died on Calvary?

[David Koot]

I was intrigued by something that came up in the process of discussing another topic on a different thread. While addressing the issue of 'who is the sin bearer?' the question arose whether or not Christ really died for our sins. A statement by EGW was quoted to the effect that Deity could not have died, that only Christ's humanity died. Someone questioned whether or not any risk was involved, if that was the case. Hmmmm, very interesting questions indeed.

Mindful of the oft-repeated injunction of that author to go to the Bible, I find this interesting statement made by Jesus:

"Joh 10:17,18 "Therefore My Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one takes it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This command I have received from My Father."

Okay, this says that Jesus had the power to 'take up' His life after once laying it down. It does not say that the Father would restore Christ's life. It says that Christ Himself had the power to take it up again--that is, that Christ could call Himself back to life. Very interesting statement. If He was dead, how could He call Himself back to life?

This leaves open another option: that Jesus Christ was both God and man or, as I have read somewhere, "Divinity veiled by humanity." Under this option, God was present in Christ, but Jesus Christ was also a human being having, apparently, a separate existence from God within???????

Well, any thoughts about this question?

Dave

[John317]

It's true that God can't be tempted and can't die, but Jesus Christ was both fully God and fully man. He was a real man, not a make-believe man. Jesus Christ had both a divine and human will, a divine and human mind, and a divine and human nature-- yet Jesus was not two persons but one.

It was truly God, then, who went through that terrible agony on the cross. When the human Jesus got hungry, God experienced hunger. We can know, then, that God really knows by experience what it is like to be tempted and to have the other experiences that are common to humans, such as thirst, hunger, and exhaustion. Divinity did not die but God knows by experience, because of Jesus' death, what it is like to face and experience death.

The risk of Jesus' sinning was enormous. Imagine God, in the person of Jesus Christ, siding with Satan against the Father. That could have happened. It was a very possibility. The Godhead took a real risk in order to save humanity. It would have meant the splitting up of the Godhead, something unimaginably catastrophic for the entire universe. That shows how great the love of the Son was and how great is the love of the Father to give Him for the salvation of a world in rebellion against Him.

[melvin mccarty]

Do you believe that Jesus' mother Mary actually conceived in which case Jesus was half human and half divine? Or do you believe He was a transplant?

In any case when He left heaven did he not become a human baby? In a sense he died twice.

mel

[David Koot]

That is what I had always believed--the union of the Divine and the human. Yet, that would be merged into one Being, born as the God-man, growing up from babyhood into being an adult. But this other concept is different, as I understand it. That is, Jesus Christ was indeed 'born of the Holy Spirit' as the union of the Divine and the human, BUT . . . at the same time, God was there, also, with a separate existence which did not end at Christ's death????? This is a bit confusing. How else could Christ call Himself back to life?

Dave

[rd151]

I personally have a tough time accepting the scapegoat teaching as well. Not that there wasn't a scapegoat, but just WHO is that scapegoat? First off, it is abundantly clear from the bible that Christ already has bore OUR SINS in his own body on the cross. I Peter 2:24.It has already been accomplished. Does this mean this action was only temporary and that our sins are still being kept somewhere until Christ transfers those sins he already bore upon Satan after the great judgment? If so just WHERE are our sins now? Most Christians like myself believe that when we trust in our dear Savior, our sins are removed already and never more to be brought out. To me this transference of sins teaching is not biblical at all.

[melvin mccarty]

Where is the scriptural support for the theory that Christ on earth was 100% human and 100% divine as some assert? I know the incarnation is rather beyond our capability of understanding but are we required to abandon common sense?

mel

[rd151]

Melvin

That Christ before his incarnation was fully God is clear from John 1:1. Here he is called the Word. The Word in John 1:1 is declared as being "God".

Now in the SAME chapter go down to verse 14. Verse 14 states the Word BECAME FLESH or human. So here we clearly see from the bible that Jesus is and was God and human at the same time.

[John317]

Where is the scriptural support for the theory that Christ on earth was 100% human and 100% divine as some assert? I know the incarnation is rather beyond our capability of understanding but are we required to abandon common sense?

mel

As to the deity of Christ:

"For in Him [Christ] DWELLS ALL THE FULLNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY" Col. 2: 9.

"And He IS before all things, and in Him [Christ] all things consist" Co. 1: 17. (Carefully compare Heb. 1: 3, 10; John 1: 1-3, 14, 18.)

As to His humanity:

"Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil... Therefore, in all things He [Christ] had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted" Heb. 2: 14, 17, 18.

Matt. 1: 1 identifies Jesus as the son of David, the Son of Abraham, and Luke traces His human heredity back to Adam. Mark identifies Him as "the Son of God" (Mark 1: 1).

Practically all of the ancient Greek New Testament manuscripts say that "God was manifest in the flesh [i.e., as a human being]" (1 Tim. 3: 16).

1 Timothy 2: 5 declares that Jesus is still a man today. 2 John 7 uses a verb in the present tense to say that Jesus continues to be in the flesh, and the book of Revelation, written after the resurrection, portrays Him as still both God and man.

Finally, for those who accept the Spirit of prophecy, Ellen White wrote that Christ was "a real man," "not a make-believe man," and that Jesus Christ was the One who gave the law at Mt. Sinai and was known in the Old Testament by the name Jehovah.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Robert]

If He was dead, how could He call Himself back to life?

1] Christ is, and has always been, the Son of God. He is Deity, period!

2] At the incarnation, God the Father "mysteriously blended" the Deity of Christ with our corporate, fallen humanity that needed redeeming.

Therefore when EGW states that Deity did not sink and die, humanity died - she is quite correct. She goes on to say that it is impossible for Deity to die. Since Christ's Deity never died it was possible for Him to raise His assumed humanity, but not in its same form. He was raised with a glorified humanity, free from all traces of sin.

[melvin mccarty]

According to Scripture Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit (God). why the need to argue with that? He was Son of man (his favorite title for himself) no need at all for a 200% being.

mel

[David Koot]

Hmmmm. I just posted, and the thing disappeared. Oh well! I will try again. Robert, I have to say that the concept is new to me. I had always understood that Jesus Christ represented the union of the Divine and the human in one body. The notion that there were actually TWO Beings in or about the same body is new to me. Having trouble with that.

Dave

[John317]

According to Scripture Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit (God). why the need to argue with that? He was Son of man (his favorite title for himself) no need at all for a 200% being.

mel

The way it is expressed in most text books on the subject is that Jesus Christ was/is fully God and fully man. He was not fully God and part human, nor fully human and part God. He was a complete, whole human being, except that He did not sin. What I find really wonderful to consider is that the Bible teaches that He will remain a member of the human race throughout eternity. So we have an elder brother, as it were, who is sustaining the universe and will live forever right among us on the new earth.

[Woody]

Don't most Christians believe that Jesus is coming back for His Second Coming so that He can get all those old decayed bodies to give back to the Saints who are in Heaven?

Do they also believe that Jesus will pick up HIS old decayed body? OR .... Does He have his human body in Heaven already .

If my interpretation of their belief on the State of the Dead is wrong ... then someone please correct me.

[melvin mccarty]

why is it so difficult to admit He was/is part God and part man as scripture indicates?

mel

[John317]

why is it so difficult to admit He was/is part God and part man as scripture indicates?

mel

Do you mean half man and half God? How would that work?

What are some of the verses you have in mind?

One of the verses I'm thinking of is Col. 2: 9, which says that in Christ "dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." That's a very literal rendering of the verse.

Another translation of the same verse reads, "All of God lives in Christ fully (even when Christ was on earth)." (New Century Version)

I don't know of any church, theologian or writer on the subject who believes the Bible teaches Jesus was part human or part God. Maybe they are all wrong; that is always possible. The Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus was not God but that he was fully human. They believe Jesus was created by the Father as a god for the express purpose of coming to earth and paying the price for Adam's sin. But they don't believe he was a god while on the earth. They believe he gave his divinity up when he was born as a human baby.

I don't know of any group of Christians today who believe Jesus was/is part human but fully God.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[David Koot]

This is really strange. I made a post on this thread, which I had started, last night. A little later, checked for responses, and my post had disappeared. So, I re-posted. This morning, that post is gone. What is going on? John317, any ideas?

Dave

[Robert]

According to Scripture Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit (God). why the need to argue with that? He was Son of man (his favorite title for himself) no need at all for a 200% being.

Because, for one, it is not inclusive.

Two, because that quote doesn't refer to the Son of man, but rather the Son of God:

Luke 4:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

[Robert]

I had always understood that Jesus Christ represented the union of the Divine and the human in one body. The notion that there were actually TWO Beings in or about the same body is new to me. Having trouble with that.

Dave

Reverse this....At the "new birth" you have the blending of the human and the divine. The Holy Spirit, who is an immortal being (God) became one with your humanity - i.e., the being David.

You didn't cease to be yourself and the Holy Spirit didn't cease to be Himself. You are still fallen and mortal. He, the Holy Spirit, is unfallen and immortal. The two have been united in one body - the body of David.

Does that make sense?

Rob

[John317]

David, I tried to send you a PM just now about your post that "disappeared." But I got a message that said I could not send it. At any rate, I don't know what happened with that post but I will do my best to find out and then I'll be in touch. "John 3: 17"

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Jesus is the 2nd Adam. The 1st Adam was made with the Spirit in him, He was sinless and perfect. The last Adam was made by a miracle of God as well. He was made like the 1st, only He took on the shell (human nature) of the 1st.

The 1st Adam sinned and the Spirit departed and he basically passed on empty shells. We know that as the natural or carnal man who is led by the carnal mind instead of the Spirit or spiritual mind. This would have been our lot unless something was done. Praise God, He did something about that.

Therefore Jesus covenanted to live as we do; the marriage of the flesh and the Spirit. He lived by the Spirit's guidance as we all can. When He was here, He was as we are bodily, only He was completely led of the Spirit.

That which was lost by the 1st Adam was regained by the last Adam and that was the union of the Spirit and the flesh. If this was not done in Jesus we would have no hope. Adams's sin brought the separation but Jesus' life of obedience to the end of His life, brought eternal life to light and passed on eternal life to all who would come to Him. So just as the separation so is the reunion, but unlike the separation the reunion is a choice.

So how does the Son of God fit into all this? Complete submission to the will of the Father. "Son you are not to use divinty at all while in the flesh on earth." Yes Father. By so doing we can live as Jesus, in complete submission to the Father.

It's like a business owner and his son. They hear from the union that work is too hard and that it is impossible for the workers to fulfill their duties. So the son says "Dad, I'll go work in the plant and live with them and I won't let anyone know who I am and I'll see if what they say is true"

So while the son is in the plant he must live under the same rules and conditions as the other workers and must also live as they live in order to completely understand their situation. After a years of working and not once using his priviledges, he can say, "Dad, what they say is untrue I have done the work and have motivated many of the workers to do what I have done. There are many however who are lazy and are really hateful and are trying to get me fired. Let me stay there a while longer to see what will happen" The son stays a while and eventually the whole plant turn's on him but he still doesn't let anyone know (only a few close and trustworthy friends) who he is.

Well you know what happens. The point is that while he is a worker he does not and cannot use his priviledges or else the whole purpose of motivating the workers and saving the company is lost.

Jesus did not use His divinity but was divine, only after His death and resurrection could He use His divinty. It was not necessary for God the Son to die because He was saving mankind. But Jesus the man had to die to save mankind from the power of sin and bring him back into the unity of the flesh and Spirit. then one day we'll exchange these bodies for one like Christ glorious body because we will have shown ourselves worthy.

Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down on the right hand of God;

These are the thoughts that came to mind while responding to this thread, hope it helps someone.

[Robert]

Heb 10:3 "Therefore, when Christ [as God] came into the world, he said: 'Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you [God] prepared for me [Christ as God].'"

Please note that Christ is/was God. He was God before He came "into the world", but at the incarnation "a body" was prepared for His Deity by God. That body was our flesh and blood after the fall. He took it in order to legally redeem it.

Go to 1 Cor 1:30

"It is because of him [God the Father] that you [your life] are [where?] in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our justification, holiness and redemption."

Christ didn't come to save "His" humanity because Christ is God. He came to save our humanity by taking it upon Himself. It was our humanity that stood condemned under law. Therefore to legally redeem you and me from under the curse Christ had to assume our corporate life and in that life live a perfect life.

But since that life stood condemned He had to submit it to the 2nd death. Hence "in Christ" your humanity has been made obedient and "in Christ" "You died to the law in the body of Christ". Your humanity has met the demands of the law, legally, "in Christ".

[Robert]

In "Adventist World-NAD/December 2007", Angel Manuel Rodriguez wrote the following:

Quote:

"The idea that God had to kill the innocent instead of the guilty in order to save us is considered a violation of justice. Yet the witness (says Angel) is that Christ died as our substitute." [bible Questions, page 40]

Angel has two errors here. Not just small, insignificant errors, but whoppers!

1] He teaches that God killed Christ.

2] He teaches that the innocent (Christ) died instead of the guilty (the human race).

IF the above are true then I must conclude that,

A] God is a murderer!

B] that God sets asides the demands of His own law (the soul that sins must die) and practices injustice.

Both of these make God out to be a lawbreaker and a hypocrite!

Robert

[Robert]

1] He teaches that God killed Christ.

If I take a single source, I could come to the same conclusion as Mr. Rodriguez. Take for example Is. 53:

"Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.... Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering [verses 4,10]."

Please note the context: "We (from our point of view) considered him stricken by God...."

What's the reality - who murdered Christ as the Son of Man? Before we can continue let me quote Christ:

"He [satan] was a murderer from the beginning" [John 8:44]

What did Christ cry out on the cross? Did He say, "Why are you doing this to Me?" No! Let's read it:

At the sixth hour darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour. And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”—which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” [Mark 15:34]

Clearly God has "forsaken" Christ as the Son of Man. In fact we can trace this back to the "Mount of Olives":

"When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness." [Luke 22:53]

Previous to this no one harmed Christ! Why? "But no one laid a hand on him, because his time had not yet come." [John 7:30]

Remember that the 2nd death is where God abandons you. In the case of Christ, God had to abandon Christ.

So did God murder Christ? Clearly not, even though Scripture has God assuming the responsibility. Let's look at this also:

And Jesus said to them, “You will all fall away; for it is written, 'I [God] will strike the shepherd [Jesus], and the sheep will be scattered.'" [Mark 14:27]

Did God murder Jesus? No, instead He removed Himself from the scene. God handed Christ over to surrounding forces of darkness.

You see two things happened at the cross:

1] What the world, backed by Satan, did to Christ because God departed and

2] What God did to Christ.

The world brutalized Him. The world treated Him worse than a criminal.

God abandoned Christ who had "become sin for us". When God abandoned Him, Christ experienced the 2nd death, which is goodbye to life forever because the source of the resurrection (God) has abandoned you.

So when the Father abandoned Christ the hope of the resurrection forsook Him. Christ died expecting never to see life again. That's the 2nd death.

Rob

[Robert]

2] He teaches that the innocent (Christ) died instead of the guilty (the human race).

I've been over this extensively. So I'll quote a few scriptures. Notice who died:

Romans 6:6 "For we know that our old self [our old life from Adam] was crucified with him [Jesus]...."

Romans 7:4 "You also were made to die to the Law through (or in) the body of Christ...."

Col 3:3 "For you died, and your life [your glorified life] is now hidden with Christ in God."

2 Cor 5:14 "One died for all, therefore all died"

[Robert]

Col 3:3 "For you died, and your life [your glorified life] is now hidden with Christ in God."

Let me comment on this one:

You see the sinful you died "in Christ". That's because God's law requires not the death of the innocent, but the guilty. You - your sinful life had to die - not just for 3 days, but for eternity. That's the 2nd death.

Sunday morning when Christ's Deity was restored [bTW it was never dead], God raised Christ up not with our old sinful life, but a sinless, immortal life. In fact in the 2nd Adam (Christ) our life is now hidden with Christ. Where can I find more of the same?

Eph 2:5-6

"When we were dead in our transgressions [our old life], [God] made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us [our new life] up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus...."

So David, to answer your question, YOU died "in the body of Christ" 2000 years ago. But you'll say, "How can that be, I am here?"

Yes, as an individual you are here. But here's the thing; corporately you died "in Christ". How's that?

Well, from where did your sinful life come? Not mom...not dad -- Adam! God the Father took Adam's life after the fall (which is our life too) and combined that with Christ's Deity.

Christ took on Himself humanity - a humanity that needed redeeming. This is the good news of the gospel that we should be giving to the world.

"In Christ" the law has been legally answered! But Pastors like Angel keep on preaching this heresy that Christ died instead of us. If that's the case God is unjust and His law has been left unanswered.