Mental Health V. Religion

[Dr. Shane]

The average psychiatrist has more power to do harm in the lives of individuals than most religious leaders on Earth... Moreover, it would be hard to find a more unhappy lot than those clustered in the mental health field. Especially among psychiatrists, suicide, depression, drug addiction and alcoholism are notoriously rife. Among non-medical mental health professionals, the situation doesn't seem much better. Not only are many mental health professionals unhappy but they do not live ethically inspired lives. Too many, for example, prostate themselves before the psychiatric establishment. (Peter R. Breggin "Mental Health versus Religion," The Humanist 41 [Nov./Dec. 1987])

[Guest charis]

Wait a minute. That statement looks like it is 20 years old. I think there's been a lot changes in the way MH professionals treat their patients. I think they are much more accountable from my perspective (of being a patient). And I don't think it is a fair statement to infer that many are not ethical. There's always going to be a few snakes in the grass. I honestly do not think that the things done to me by MH professionals back in the late 70's and 80's would be done today. IMHO

[Dr. Shane]

Dr. Breggin is still very much a critic of mental health. As recently as 2006 he released "Ethical Human Psychology and Psychiatry." He is not a Christian and thus has no religious motivation for his criticism of modern mental health treatment.

Here are a couple of websites:

Peter Breggin, M.D.

Fifty Years of Psychiatric Reform

What I found interesting is how he points out that mental health professionals have a greater capacity to do harm to individuals than do members of the clergy. Many want to talk about the sins of the church and how much damage Christianity has done. While Christianity certainly is not without sin itself comparing it to the secular mental health industry is quite fascinating.

My sister thought her childhood religion had messed her up so she sought professional counseling. She saw a professional counselor for a number of years. She returned to her childhood faith before she died and that is where she finally found the peace that she had sought.

After quitting drinking as a teenager I turned to pop psychology for answers. It did provide some comfort and stability in my life but I still had major issues with responsibility and and self-confidence. It wasn't until I had been sober for five years and returned to my childhood faith that I found completeness.

This is just my and my sisters experiences. I don't know what others have found or what their experiences are. I do know that Biblical religion worked for my sister and I where secular psychology failed. Of course neither of us dealt with mental illnesses ourselves. We simply had emotional issues that we needed to work through because of a dysfunctional childhood.

[pindoc]

Ditto, Charis.

Shane, 'less stats have changed Dramatically in the last several yrs dentists have a high suicide rate. We do not want to put them out of business.

What kind of pop psych did you seek? What if we are seeing a long-standing resentment against an entire profession with many variations, many modalities, professionals with various credentials Possibly because you choose someone who misrepresented themselves, or you simply made an ill-informed choice - given your desire to do the best for yourself with the info you had at the time, of course! - of professionals or therapeutic modalities? Meaning, there have been all sorts of strange counseling modalities, e.g., Primal Screaming, Hands-on Sex Therapies as opposed to real Sex Therapy that is communication and NOT TOUCH-BASED.

Personally I am a Masters level health care professional exploring entering addiction counseling. In fact, I am going to a career fair for behavioral health professionals Wednesday even tho I am not a bhp already. Once in addictions work, a nearby community college has a certificate program with the didactics I would need for state certification. I am really excited about the possibility.

Shane, I have relative who's a MA-level counselor who needs counseling herself VERY MUCH. I also know other 'shrinks' of various credentials who are wonderful professionals. I do understand whereof you speak.

[Dr. Shane]

This is very important. If we are going to have a healthy exchange of ideas, we need to avoid personalizing posts. Shane is not the topic here. In the previous post, Shane is mentioned by name twice and the word "you" or "your" is used six times.

While I shared my personal experience, the topic is Dr. Peter Breggin's comparison of mental health and religion. The subject line of the thread should make that clear. I don't have the answers, nor do I pretend to. I have questions and my own experience.

Quote:

What if we are seeing a long-standing resentment against an entire profession with many variations

I suppose Dr. Peter Breggin could have a long-standing resentment against the entire mental health profession. However that doesn't mean he is wrong in what he is saying. A person that is wronged may hold a resentment but the mere fact that the person holds a resentment doesn't mean that act they were victimized by somehow becomes ok.

Quote:

I am a Masters level health care professional

The issue raised is if someone in a position like this has a greater ability to do harm to an individual than does a member of the clergy. Of course counselors can do go (and often do). So can members of the clergy. However, it seems reasonable to believe that patients seeking help from a counselor would place more trust in them and follow their directives more so than members of a church would in their pastor, priest or rabbi. Since counselors tend to be more educated in the sciences of mind and behavior, it also seems reasonable to believe their advice (when it is bad) has a greater possibility of doing harm than that of a preacher.

Of course, both the preacher and counselor can do great harm. In my over twenty years in AA, I have been the sponsor of many and thus been in a position to do harm. Yet, I think counselors could mess someone up worse than an AA sponsor and probably a preacher for that matter.

[Guest charis]

It's interesting reading Dr Breggin's CV. Rather than psychotherapy with additional drug therapy, he advocates very little (if any) drug treatment for psych patients. It also appears that he has been a major witness on behalf of people who had bad reactions to psychotropic drugs or ECT. The personal injury attorneys must love him!

As far as comparing psychiatrists to members of the clergy, i think professional counselors hold great sway over their clients....more so than the clergy. But I think it would be difficult for someone to make a comparison unless he/she has had experience with both kinds of counselors.

[bonnie]

It's interesting reading Dr Breggin's CV. Rather than psychotherapy with additional drug therapy, he advocates very little (if any) drug treatment for psych patients. It also appears that he has been a major witness on behalf of people who had bad reactions to psychotropic drugs or ECT. The personal injury attorneys must love him!

As far as comparing psychiatrists to members of the clergy, i think professional counselors hold great sway over their clients....more so than the clergy. But I think it would be difficult for someone to make a comparison unless he/she has had experience with both kinds of counselors.

The damage from clergy has ramifications way beyond the member.

To many a clergy represents God. The sway a charismatic "caring" pastor can be considerable. The damage is not only horrendous to the person seeking help, it impacts the members/young people/and the standing in the community of that specific church. The damage may be different,but can be lasting no matter which is guilty of betraying a trust or treating in a manner not helpful to the person

[Stan]

I have wondered about the following..

It seems like since clergy have give over marriage advice, counseling etc over to the secular, but scientific people of academic wisdom, divorces has skyrocketed in those areas of the world.

Each group has people who betray trust, it is tougher when clergy do it..

[bonnie]

A woman I knew turned to her clergy for help for marital issues.

She remained with him because her church does not condone divorce. If she would pray a little more and try a little harder to live the biblical role of wife he was sure her marriage would improve.

She was battered to a pulp more than once, remained in the marriage as she was sure if she prayed long enough God would help her to be a better wife.

Still there, no longer beaten at least physically, she just learned what to avoid and how to please the king of the house. At least secular counselors are not so apt to encourage something like this or use God for emphasis.

[Dr. Shane]

I don't know enough to make a good judgment on it. Certainly there is a class of people that will follow a clergyman's advice just like a counselor's advice. However I would think most people would be more willing to second guess their pastor or priest. One reason may be because we tend to value something based on the price we pay for it. Most members of the clergy give advice away for free while counselors and psychologists charge for their advice. So, if they charge, their advice must be worth more... right?

I think in Adventist circles, we tend to be more critical of our clergy than many other Christian denominations. So I would think we are even more willing to second guess a pastor. Consider for a moment that a pastor tells a woman she should stay in her marriage but an Adventist counselor tells her she should divorce. I would think she would be more willing to listen to the counselor than the pastor.

[aldona]

A good counsellor, whether secular or religious, should not be "giving advice" in the sense of telling the person what the counsellor thinks he/she should do.

The process of counselling should be all about talking through the issues that are troubling the person, so they can identify where these issues are coming from, clarify matters in their own mind and make an intelligent decision based on improved self-understanding and understanding of those around them.

I have not known any counsellors who have told one of my patients "You should divorce your spouse" or "You should leave your job". That is not counselling, that is just ordering another person around. The one being counselled should come to their own decision after considering everything that is going on and weighing the pros and cons, examining their own motives and thinking patterns, with the help of someone who is knowledgeable about human psychology.

That is why one of the criteria for a good counsellor/psychologist is that they should be impartial or non-judgemental.

Unfortunately, I think there are those, on both the secular and the religious side, who think "counselling" is just handing out advice, and in their inflated sense of self-importance they like the power of telling people what to do and the warm feeling of their instructions being followed.

aldona

[LifeHiscost]

It wasn't until I had been sober for five years and returned to my childhood faith that I found completeness.

[LifeHiscost]

"You should divorce your spouse" or "You should leave your job". That is not counselling, that is just ordering another person around.

Perhaps your conclusions are right in most cases, Aldona. However I am a person who married one who was counseled by a pastor to get out of the marraige she was in after she had suffered horrendous abuse, mental, vocal, and physical for 18 years, staying married somewhat because she felt no biblical permission to divorce.

Not only is it wrong to assume God expects one to bear up under constant abuse because of the foolish decisions made as a youth, but it is incumbent upon pastors and other Christian workers to give the best possible counsel they are able, not excluding advice to seek from God the right decision when it is seen that suffering is the continuing result of a bad relationship.

Certainly it is true that not all marraige relationships are made by God.

Take it from two people who live in the most strife-free marraige we have been aware of in 30 years of wedded bliss. The counsel from that young pastor could very well go down in history as the most important reason these two people enter heaven from wedded bliss, excluding of course, the grace of Jesus who performed and is performing the continueing miracle.

"...what God has joined together , let not man separate." Matt 19:6 NKJV underlined mine LHC

Regards!

[carolaa]

Originally Posted By: charis

It's interesting reading Dr Breggin's CV. Rather than psychotherapy with additional drug therapy, he advocates very little (if any) drug treatment for psych patients. It also appears that he has been a major witness on behalf of people who had bad reactions to psychotropic drugs or ECT. The personal injury attorneys must love him!

As far as comparing psychiatrists to members of the clergy, i think professional counselors hold great sway over their clients....more so than the clergy. But I think it would be difficult for someone to make a comparison unless he/she has had experience with both kinds of counselors.

The damage from clergy has ramifications way beyond the member.

To many a clergy represents God. The sway a charismatic "caring" pastor can be considerable. The damage is not only horrendous to the person seeking help, it impacts the members/young people/and the standing in the community of that specific church. The damage may be different,but can be lasting no matter which is guilty of betraying a trust or treating in a manner not helpful to the person

This is exactly right! Since the author of the book is not writing from a Christian perspective, he is not speaking about the spiritual results that happen when clergy abuse or otherwise misrepresent God to their members.

[Nan]

My little time spent studying counselling differentiated between crisis and general counselling. In times of crisis it is sometimes necessary to give specific advice, however this should be aimed only at getting the person to a position where they can make their own decisions again.

[carolaa]

Originally Posted By: aldona

"You should divorce your spouse" or "You should leave your job". That is not counselling, that is just ordering another person around.

Perhaps your conclusions are right in most cases, Aldona. However I am a person who married one who was counseled by a pastor to get out of the marraige she was in after she had suffered horrendous abuse, mental, vocal, and physical for 18 years, staying married somewhat because she felt no biblical permission to divorce.

Not only is it wrong to assume God expects one to bear up under constant abuse because of the foolish decisions made as a youth, but it is incumbent upon pastors and other Christian workers to give the best possible counsel they are able, not excluding advice to seek from God the right decision when it is seen that suffering is the continuing result of a bad relationship.

Certainly it is true that not all marraige relationships are made by God.

"...what God has joined together , let not man separate." Matt 19:6 NKJV underlined mine LHC

Regards!

I know only a very few pastors who would give the kind of advice your fortunate wife received, which is why I would not consider seeing a pastor when I was in a miserable marriage. I wanted to find someone who was not biased and would give straight counsel, and not just follow the "party line." Since then, I have found that there are pastors who will do that, but not many. Many are afraid they could lose their job if they even hint that someone should leave their spouse.

[carolaa]

My little time spent studying counselling differentiated between crisis and general counselling. In times of crisis it is sometimes necessary to give specific advice, however this should be aimed only at getting the person to a position where they can make their own decisions again.

It's true. Sometimes people need counseling, sometimes they need coaching, and sometimes they need advice. It is the wise and experienced "counselor" who knows the difference and when each should apply.

A person can go to a counselor for years and years and never figure out for themselves how to move ahead. But a good coach can get them over the barriers and moving forward.

[carolaa]

Shane, 'less stats have changed Dramatically in the last several yrs dentists have a high suicide rate.

That's what I was thinking I had heard not too long ago.

Anyway, even if psychologist have a higher than averate rate of suicide, it does not necessarily mean they have problems themselves. I mean, how depressing to listen to people's problems all day long! Especially if you're not allowed to give them advice.

[carolaa]

I know only a very few pastors who would give the kind of advice your fortunate wife received, which is why I would not consider seeing a pastor when I was in a miserable marriage. I wanted to find someone who was not biased and would give straight counsel, and not just follow the "party line." Since then, I have found that there are pastors who will do that, but not many. Many are afraid they could lose their job if they even hint that someone should leave their spouse.

By the way, the therapist I found was wonderful! The only stipulation in my search was that it had to be a woman. She helped me surmount a couple issues from my past that were hindering me from making healthy choices. And the subject of her religion never came up. The principles of psychology can be used effectively - or not - by Christians and non-Christians alike.

[Woody]

Quote:

Many are afraid they could lose their job if they even hint that someone should leave their spouse.

I think you are right there. I have though known many who encouraged separation and getting away from the person ... praying for the person and waiting for it to be safe to reunite.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Many are afraid they could lose their job if they even hint that someone should leave their spouse.

I don't know if the church has any official policy on what pastors can and cannot advise members to do concerning such issues. I would agree that a pastor should never advise someone to get divorce BUT they should be free to advise separation and help them get some professional counseling. Divorce is a major decision. I don't think anyone should ever choose to get divorced until after there has been a period of separation.

[cardw]

Quote:

The average psychiatrist has more power to do harm in the lives of individuals than most religious leaders on Earth...

There really is no way to test if this statement is true since we have no way of studying this. There is no question that a skilled Mental Health professional can do a lot of good in a person's life. I have seen this happen many many times with clients that I have referred to qualified therapists.

I have therapists I refer to that are Christian and otherwise. I try and connect people with the Mental Health professional that is best qualified for their belief system and life problem.

Blanket statements like this have no meaning. It is far better to know how to pick the most qualified professional than to generalize a profession as bad or to compare professions based on their worst representatives.

I know pastors who are great councilors and some who are terrible. The same with Marriage and Family Councilors. There is no way to know who does the most harm. I think we can conclude that its important to know how to find the best one and know the signs of a poor one.

[LifeHiscost]

The principles of psychology can be used effectively - or not - by Christians and non-Christians alike.

A truth that can be overlooked by those who feel only those with visible credentials on a wall are qualified to speak in love.

“ And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh" Joel 2:28 NKJV

OTOH if we choose a non-credentialed advisor, God has given us some important cautions.

" Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God..."

1 John 4:2 NASB

Regards!