Grace, Law and Ellen White

[cardw]

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There are true hearted people that will be saved that believe ever idea put forward so far. There are true hearted people that are muslims that will be saved. There are true hearted people that are idol worshipers in the darkest jungles that will be saved. God is the perfect judge and will judge people on the knowledge they have. But in the end one thing is true.

My true hearted belief and experience is that this system of thinking is harmful. And, yet, here is the deal breaker...

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Those with a true heart that love God and surrender every thing to him will want to obey him.

Since no one is clear on what God wants, this is pretty much impossible. This very thread demonstrates all the various claims on what God wants and each claims to be THE right answer.

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Give 100% to God hold nothing back. Give ALL to God no matter what the cost. Look at his love and sacrifice and fall on the Rock and be broken.

This doesn't really say anything. It simply is using cliches. You assume that this has some sort of rational meaning, but when you get into the details, if there are any details, it becomes very complex and contradictory.

And if you don't agree then it must be pride or some fault of the person. No one considers that the statement is unreasonable.

This quote from Gerald Massey, a contemporary of Ellen White, summarizes this quite well

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The orthodox teachings are so false that they have made the utterance of truth a blasphemy, and all the proclaimers of truth blasphemers! Oppose their savage theology, and you are denounced as an Atheist. Expose the folly of their faith and you are an Infidel all around. Deny their miracles, and they damn your morals.

Or as Mitchell Logan writes in his book The Christian Mythology Unveiled in 1842

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The reproaching call of heretic, infidel, atheist, etc., will be raised against the author of these lectures, by every fiery intolerant bigot into whose hand they may fall. But he alone is the true infidel who forsakes the laws of his own nature, and gives up his mind to a belief in fabulous and demoralizing legends, which contradict all experience, and stand in opposition to the testimony of his own sense and reason.

[cardw]

The following quotes really demonstrate how sick this stuff is...

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Those who are truly seeking to perfect Christian character will never indulge the thought that they are sinless. The more their minds dwell upon the character of Christ, and the nearer they approach to His divine image, the more clearly will they discern Its spotless perfection, and the more deeply will they feel their own weakness and defects. Those who claim to be without sin give evidence that they are far from holy. It is because they have no true knowledge of Christ that they can look upon themselves as reflecting His image. The greater the distance between them and their Saviour, the more righteous they appear in their own eyes.--The Spirit of Prophecy, vol. 4, pp. 301, 302. {YRP 97.4}

This reveals the manipulative nature of Ellen White's writings quite clearly. First of all most people don't claim they are without sin or mistakes. So this is a straw man to begin with. And second, she creates a virtue out of low self esteem. It becomes a virtue to be brought down by our own weakness and defects. It is a virtue to become painfully aware of how terrible we are.

This is VERY sick stuff. It is soul damaging and creates people who have no confidence in any of their own perceptions. This creates people who become vulnerable to manipulation and control through authority and shame. And then she brings the impossible requirement of a perfect character, whatever that means, to load you down even more...

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God requires perfection of His children. His law is a transcript of His own character, and it is the standard of all character. This infinite standard is presented to all that there may be no mistake in regard to the kind of people whom God will have to compose His kingdom. The life of Christ on earth was a perfect expression of God's law, and when those who claim to be children of God become Christlike in character, they will be obedient to God's commandments. Then the Lord can trust them to be of the number who shall compose the family of heaven. Clothed in the glorious apparel of Christ's righteousness, they have a place at the King's feast. They have a right to join the blood-washed throng. {COL 315.1}

You have to achieve perfection without knowing if your are perfect. In fact you have to be painfully aware of your imperfection and hold this in emotional balance with the requirement of perfect obedience to God's law. No wonder Ellen White entered into madness before she died.

This stuff angers me because it creates such pain and suffering. It creates a mental prison without an exit. It is labeled as wisdom when it is one of the most cruel taskmasters conceivable. Clearly it is based on implied threat, fear, and manipulation. And unfortunately, much like a virus, it is self replicating.

[Sulla]

Im sorry cardw. I cant give you faith in God and I cant give you converted heart. Thats God's job. And I have presented the truth. But its never going to be some kind of well math problem. So again I say surrender to God. When you do these other things will not be the issue they are now to you. Not in the same way.

[cardw]

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Im sorry cardw. I cant give you faith in God and I cant give you converted heart. Thats God's job. And I have presented the truth. But its never going to be some kind of well math problem.

If there is no criteria for determining if something is true or not, then there is no such thing as truth.

I realize that there are many things in this life that are mysteries, but you are claiming to know THE truth and that is an extraordinary claim. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence and clearly you do not have that.

I do have some experience with giving my whole life to God 100 percent. I read both the Bible and Ellen White very extensively and I lived my life as closely to those writings as possible. In my experience that only brought pain, fear, and sorrow. I also observed this fear and pain in many others who were very religious and committed to Jesus and whatever goes with that. I also observe a lot of fear and tension when I go to church.

All of this did not bring transformation or love. Now when I gave that idea up, transformation and love became available. Now I don't know what your life is like, but I know what my life was like following everything you have described.

The simple truth for me is that it doesn't work. And it wasn't from a lack of praying, trying, or studying. I haven't seen it do what it claims in other people either. What I do observer working is that people who have practical wisdom are much happier, more loving, more joyful, and deeply committed to their communities. And yet it is these people that Ellen White condemns because they haven't said the magic words, "I accept Jesus as my Savior."

It has become very plain to me that the modern teachings of Christianity are a complex myth maintained by a lot of magical thinking and provide very little in real life results.

[Sulla]

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I do have some experience with giving my whole life to God 100 percent. I read both the Bible and Ellen White very extensively and I lived my life as closely to those writings as possible. In my experience that only brought pain, fear, and sorrow.

What you describe is contradictory. If you did not have the peace and love that comes with conversion you were not converted sorry. And you can be 100% convinced something is the truth. You can read all the books. You can pray and go to church. You can do better in your life. You can proclaim the gospel. You can do all these things and more and still not be converted.

So let me make a suggestion. Instead of spending all this time on details that don't matter at all if you are not converted you need to go back to the very start.

"As your conscience has been quickened by the Holy Spirit, you have seen something of the evil of sin, of its power, its guilt, its woe; and you look upon it with abhorrence. You feel that sin has separated you from God, that you are in bondage to the power of evil. The more you struggle to escape, the more you realize your helplessness. Your motives are impure; your heart is unclean. You see that your life has been filled with selfishness and sin. You long to be forgiven, to be cleansed, to be set free. Harmony with God, likeness to Him--what can you do to obtain it?

It is peace that you need--Heaven's forgiveness and peace and love in the soul. Money cannot buy it, intellect cannot procure it, wisdom cannot attain to it; you can never hope, by your own efforts, to secure it. But God offers it to you as a gift, "without money and without price." Isaiah 55:1. It is yours if you will but reach out your hand and grasp it. The Lord says, "Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." Isaiah 1:18. "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you." Ezekiel 36:26. "

[cardw]

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What you describe is contradictory. If you did not have the peace and love that comes with conversion you were not converted sorry. And you can be 100% convinced something is the truth. You can read all the books. You can pray and go to church. You can do better in your life. You can proclaim the gospel. You can do all these things and more and still not be converted.

Now that's clincher for me. If these things don't provide evidence, then what does?

How do you know that you are converted?

This is really a mess because in actuality there is absolutely no evidence of conversion. All you have presented is simply word games and that's all it really is. This leaves anyone who has intellectual honesty unsure of their salvation.

It requires a lot of denial and mental gymnastics to make this work. You really have not provided any basis that any of this is truth. Nor have you provided any way to determine if it is true by reason or by evidence.

I happen to have a lot of evidence that this type of belief system is harmful and is based on mythology that has been simply made up. This evidence is available for anyone to read and grows more extensive every year as more and more ancient documents are discovered and translated.

[Sulla]

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I happen to have a lot of evidence that this type of belief system is harmful and is based on mythology that has been simply made up. This evidence is available for anyone to read and grows more extensive every year as more and more ancient documents are discovered and translated.

AHHHHH ok now I get it. Why don't you put a little disclaimer on your posts for new people.

[Guest truthseeker007]

Thanks for the answers so far. I know this is a very controversial issue. Personally i think it is better to live from the heart than trying to live a perfect life because that would absorb valueble time that could be used for helping the poor and sick etc. Sulla you claim you know it all, but i think that a psychoanalysis would reveal that you point others to perfectness becuase you have put a lot of effort in trying to be perfect. In that way i can understand it that you get irritated that the gospel is simple. Of course all the 10 commandments can and should objectively be kept, but can you assure that you have no hidden sins? That would be impossible because God cannot help you overcome your sins in the flesh. For instance, when i see mariah carey i can t help feeling that i think she is very attractive. In a strict sense that would make me a sinner but even apostles struggled with these issues and asked God to free them from their miserable bodies. Only Jesus could keep the law perfectly, none of us can. What good does it do to spend all of your time trying to be perfect? Even gathering sticks on the sabbath is a breaking of the commandment. I think that because we cannot keep the law, the holy spirit guides us so that we have written Gods commandments in our hearts. I can see clearly that my flesh sins when i see attractive women but that does not come from the heart, and what does not come from the heart i think is not important. I think it is important to be loyal to our own concience. I have tried to be perfect but that is impossible and causes a lot of hate. When you live like that, because some prophet who borrowed extensively from other writers demands that, you become hatefull Christians who don t even have time to think about love for the grace that God has given us. For me, i keep the commandments to the best of my conscience and i rather spend my time in helping others than trying to be self-righteous. Maybe that will cost me my salvation, but so be it, i am not a robot. Everything that you do has to come from the heart i believe. In the end i don t think i ll make it, but at least i will be destroyed with a good consious like Arnold Schwarznegger in Terminator 2 when he dissapears in the lava.

[Sulla]

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Sulla you claim you know it all,

Hmm dont remember saying that:)

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but i think that a psychoanalysis would reveal that you point others to perfectness becuase you have put a lot of effort in trying to be perfect.

I only posted some things Ellen White said. And I posted ones that are used by those you say you dont have to be perfect. I also said everything starts from a true heart and if you have this you have assurance of salvation.

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but i think that a psychoanalysis would reveal that you point others to perfectness becuase you have put a lot of effort in trying to be perfect.

Nope:) I have put effort in surrendering to God. As that is the trick everthing else will follow.

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In that way i can understand it that you get irritated that the gospel is simple.

Nope not at all its very simple.

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Of course all the 10 commandments can and should objectively be kept, but can you assure that you have no hidden sins? That would be impossible because God cannot help you overcome your sins in the flesh. For instance, when i see mariah carey i can t help feeling that i think she is very attractive. In a strict sense that would make me a sinner but even apostles struggled with these issues and asked God to free them from their miserable bodies.

UMMM sorry no being tempted is NOT a sin. Giving in to temptation is. But yes we are naturaly sinful and that is are natural tendency.

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Only Jesus could keep the law perfectly, none of us can. What good does it do to spend all of your time trying to be perfect?

John

2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

"Christ should be our example in all things. He came from the realms of glory, not to show man a way by which he could be saved in transgression of the law, by which transgression Adam fell. But he took upon himself human nature, passed triumphantly over the ground where Adam stumbled, and redeemed that failure by his own perfect obedience of the law, and resistance to the temptations of Satan, which had compassed the fall of Adam. Christ in his own life has given us a proof that man can keep the law of God, and, through his merits be a final overcomer. {ST, July 18, 1878 par. 19}"

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I have tried to be perfect but that is impossible and causes a lot of hate. When you live like that, because some prophet who borrowed extensively from other writers demands that, you become hatefull Christians who don t even have time to think about love for the grace that God has given us. For me, i keep the commandments to the best of my conscience and i rather spend my time in helping others than trying to be self-righteous. Maybe that will cost me my salvation, but so be it, i am not a robot. Everything that you do has to come from the heart i believe. In the end i don t think i ll make it, but at least i will be destroyed with a good consious like Arnold Schwarznegger in Terminator 2 when he dissapears in the lava.

Hate only comes from trying to do these things of your own strenght and will. It can never happen period. You have to look to God and surrender day by day. Then the other will come. But you are confused on some things. Temptation is not sin. And we will always fill that we are sinners. You are SUPPOSED to fill like you are a sinner and unworthy as its not your merit that gets you to heaven. And the closer you get to God the more you will fill that general sense of sin. The difference is this. You should not have these big sins in your life you hold onto. For example if you are sleeping with your best friends wife. You know its wrong. But you cant keep doing it and say welllll its just my weak body. NO the truth would be God wants to help you overcome that sin but you are choosing to not let him help you. You are choosing the pleasure of sleeping with your best friends wife over GOD. Its not a mistake. Its not something you do without thinking. Its rebellion. But if you happen to see a half dressed very attractive woman walking down the road and feel lust for a moment then see whats happening and turn away - thats not sin. Thats just temptation.

Matthew

4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

There is no excuse for sin. {Mar 82.2}

Temptation is not sin. Jesus was holy and pure; yet He was tempted in all points as we are, but with a strength and power that man will never be called upon to endure. In His successful resistance He has left us a bright example, that we should follow in His steps. If we are self-confident or self-righteous we shall be left to fall under the power of temptation; but if we look to Jesus and trust in Him we call to our aid a power that has conquered the foe on the field of battle, and with every temptation He will make a way of escape. When Satan comes in like a flood, we must meet his temptations with the sword of the Spirit, and Jesus will be our helper and will lift up for us a standard against him. {Mar 82.3}

One wrong trait of character, one sinful desire cherished, will eventually neutralize all the power of the gospel.... The pains of duty and the pleasures of sin are the cords with which Satan binds men in his snares. Those who would rather die than perform a wrong act are the only ones who will be found faithful. {Mar 82.4}

The youth may have principles so firm that the most powerful temptations of Satan will not draw them away from their allegiance. {Mar 82.5}

[Guest truthseeker007]

well thank you for your answer. Never knew that temptation is not a sin itself. I never really made a difference between being tempted and just doing things because i thought it were both sins and because i can t help being tempted it wouldn t make a difference what i do. So thanks for clarifying this up. You know my last girlfriend always wanted to hear that she was the most beautiful woman in the world and i always lied because otherwise i would hurt her and she was very jealous. If i would have told her the truth, which i can understand is very unpleasant, then she would probably left me. She didn t make a difference between temptation and acts.

" Those who would rather die than perform a wrong act are the only ones who will be found faithful. {Mar 82.4}" I agree with this statement concerning the sabbath or murder etc. but strangely i don t have this feeling concerning lying in order to prevent a lot of pain. What should i do if i had committed sins before i knew anything Jesus but still have impact in these days?it is very hard to talk about that if you want to live a new life.

[cardw]

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Me in a Previous post

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I happen to have a lot of evidence that this type of belief system is harmful and is based on mythology that has been simply made up. This evidence is available for anyone to read and grows more extensive every year as more and more ancient documents are discovered and translated.

AHHHHH ok now I get it. Why don't you put a little disclaimer on your posts for new people.

And why don't you provide a little evidence?

All you have is smoke and mirrors and more word games. You can go to link that says my blog and find out much more than any disclaimer.

[cardw]

Sulla, you offer this quote as a simple solution, but it is a contradiction to Ellen White's other sayings and this is why this stuff is so destructive. She says the following

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It is peace that you need--Heaven's forgiveness and peace and love in the soul. Money cannot buy it, intellect cannot procure it, wisdom cannot attain to it; you can never hope, by your own efforts, to secure it. But God offers it to you as a gift, "without money and without price." Isaiah 55:1. It is yours if you will but reach out your hand and grasp it. The Lord says, "Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." Isaiah 1:18. "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you." Ezekiel 36:26. " [/quote

And then she changes the conditions from saying "reach out your had and grasp it" to "If we do God's will."

If we do God's will, we may accept large blessings as God's free gift, but not because of any merit in us; this is of no value.

This is what creates crazy people. This is deceptive and dishonest and is based on fear and manipulation. This is double speak and is the same type of brain washing described in George Orwell's book '1984.'

One simply has to read all the mental gymnastics required to make sure one is saved going on within this very thread to see how fear is played out with the lives of people who believe this stuff.

[Woody]

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1. Give 100% to God hold nothing back. Give ALL to God no matter what the cost. Look at his love and sacrifice and fall on the Rock and be broken.

Thats it that one thing. Just really do that one thing above and you cant help but do everything else. And if you do that one thing you will no matter what have complete assurance of salvation.

I will never be able to give 100% to God. I will fail. And failing it not giving 100%. So this approach to salvation will not work.

Look at this approach. Accept the free give of salvation. Then out of that assurance ... abide in Him. By abiding ... you will see the fruits of the Spirit in your life.

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"And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased, and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred. And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." {2SP 233.3}

[Sulla]

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" Those who would rather die than perform a wrong act are the only ones who will be found faithful. {Mar 82.4}" I agree with this statement concerning the sabbath or murder etc. but strangely i don t have this feeling concerning lying in order to prevent a lot of pain. What should i do if i had committed sins before i knew anything Jesus but still have impact in these days?it is very hard to talk about that if you want to live a new life.

Not every one feels the same things are sin. This is something God convicts you of over time. He does not show you every sin and wrong habit at one time or you would be over whelmed. But its also your duty to grow, study and overcome. And as you do this you will become closer to God and as you become closer to God your character will reflect this.

And as for sins this might help....

In like manner you are a sinner. You cannot atone for your past sins; you cannot change your heart and make yourself holy. But God promises to do all this for you through Christ. You believe that promise. You confess your sins and give yourself to God. You will to serve Him. Just as surely as you do this, God will fulfill His word to you. If you believe the promise,--believe that you are forgiven and cleansed,--God supplies the fact; you are made whole, just as Christ gave the paralytic power to walk when the man believed that he was healed. It is so if you believe it. {SC 51.1}

Do not wait to feel that you are made whole, but say, "I believe it; it is so, not because I feel it, but because God has promised." {SC 51.2}

[Sulla]

cardw its pointless me debating with you as you have an agenda. The truth is all there. You yourself have said you have read deeply of it. Not its up to the holy spirit to convict you of it. That is not my job and I cant do it. But I will keep praying for you and hope you only the best.

[Sulla]

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I will never be able to give 100% to God. I will fail. And failing it not giving 100%. So this approach to salvation will not work.

You confuse things here. The standard is clearly that we give 100% to God. But its also shown that even tho there is never an excuse for sin we will probably fail at some point in time. The Bible is very clear on this...

"John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:"

How can it be any more clear than the above?

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Look at this approach. Accept the free give of salvation. Then out of that assurance ... abide in Him. By abiding ... you will see the fruits of the Spirit in your life.

The only problem with this is your other statement before it. You cant give God 10% of your love and life and be abiding in him. The Bible is also clear on this...

Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

[Woody]

I'm not at 100% abiding ... and I never will be ... for even in heaven I will continue to learn more about abiding.

This is especially important for a new babe to understand. Even when you have given your heart to God ... you still have to work on giving more.

You never reach 100% in this lifetime.

[cardw]

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cardw its pointless me debating with you as you have an agenda.

And you don't have an agenda? This is very dishonest. You don't hold yourself to the same standards as you require of others much like the god you worship. If having an agenda negated what one has to say, then you have nothing to say as well.

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The truth is all there.

Its ALL there is clearly an exaggeration. More examples of magical thinking with little or, more often, no evidence.

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You yourself have said you have read deeply of it.

Yes I have, and its poison.

[Sulla]

You seem to have a very confusing outlook on things. You cant give 1% of your heart to God and be right with him. Also giving 100% of your heart to God does not mean you know everything God knows. That every hidden sin is revealed and overcome instantly. That you are as close to God as you can ever be. And I think surrender might be a better word to use to be clear.

Surrender = "To yield to the power of another" Webster Dictionary, 1913.

This is what we are talking about. To yield your will to God. This is not a growing thing. You either are yielding your will to God or you are not. And you are not going to be in heaven and not be yielding your will to God.

[Woody]

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You seem to have a very confusing outlook on things.

Your not alone. Gerry calls them asinine. So, you are in good company.

[Sulla]

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And you don't have an agenda? This is very dishonest. You don't hold yourself to the same standards as you require of others much like the god you worship. If having an agenda negated what one has to say, then you have nothing to say as well.

My agenda is to fellowship with other Adventists on and Adventist forum. Not to debate someone with their mind made up on the basics of Christianity and God.

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Yes I have, and its poison.

Exactly my point. So please have a good life I will be praying for you:)

[Woody]

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And you are not going to be in heaven and not be yielding your will to God.

I don't plan on making it to heaven based on how much will power I have surrended. I am going to heaven based on the life and death of Jesus and His robe that will cover my less than 100% surrender and will power. Because ALL of us have less than 100% surrender. If we have surrendered 100% you would not be seeing people sinning. OR are you telling me that you now have victory over all known sins in your life? If you are ... I would invite you to look a little closer.

I do surrender 100% to the idea that I can do anything towards my Salvation. I have to depend 100% upon the fact that Jesus did and died.

[Sulla]

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I don't plan on making it to heaven based on how much will power I have surrended. I am going to heaven based on the life and death of Jesus and His robe that will cover my less than 100% surrender and will power. Because ALL of us have less than 100% surrender. If we have surrendered 100% you would not be seeing people sinning. OR are you telling me that you now have victory over all known sins in your life? If you are ... I would invite you to look a little closer.

I do surrender 100% to the idea that I can do anything towards my Salvation. I have to depend 100% upon the fact that Jesus did and died.

You did not get what I mean. You talked about surrendering more and more IN heaven. But my point was the only ones that have ever been in heaven while also not being 100% surrendered to God was Satan and his angels before being cast out.

[cardw]

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My agenda is to fellowship with other Adventists on and Adventist forum. Not to debate someone with their mind made up on the basics of Christianity and God.

Then why did you engage me in the first place if you are going to bail?

[Sulla]

cardw because I misjudged your agenda. It was late when I read over your posts.