Prayer...

[Stan]

We all know how to pray right?

Close our eyes, bow our heads, fold our hands.. Right?

HOWEVER is that Biblical?

I read to often , he lift up his hands looked up (eyes open) and spoke to God...

I cannot read of a silent prayer in the Bible, but I may have missed that..

Thoughts??

[phkrause]

Never thought about that when reading the Bible. As far as closing your eyes and bowing heads, folding hands. Pretty interesting I think. Good post Stan.

pkrause

[Gail]

Silent prayer, when Nehemiah was questioned by King Artaxerxes as to what he would like in the way of help concerning Jerusalem. Nehemiah sent up a quickie

Neh.2:4

[quirky]

But Nehemiah probably did not close his eyes or fold his hands since he was standing in front of the king.

[phkrause]

Yes silent prayers are a little different than praying.

pkrause

[ChildofChrist]

You gave an interesting query. I recall how some of the 'conservative' folks think that one must kneel in prayer.

Yet the Bible mentions people praying laying flat on the ground or standing. We are told to be constant in prayer. Well...if that is the case, how will we work, drive, eat, shower,sleep etc if we are always on our knees and have a bowed head?

When there is group prayer of any sort, even watching a 2 year old DVD of worship service, I will bow my head and shut my eyes. I call it 'entering my prayer closet'although I certainly don't have a prayer shawl. Think that comes from training as a child. Not to be distracted by others around me and have that needed attiude of humility and reverence. At night, I do have silent prayers. I know He knows my thoughts.

There are times while driving I pray that my angels drive the tempter and his workers away so that I might pray aloud. Then I talk to Him as though He was riding shotgun. It's a way of thinking things through. If something sounds foolish to my ears--then it must really be so for Him.

[Woody]

Quote:

You gave an interesting query. I recall how some of the 'conservative' folks think that one must kneel in prayer.

Child of Christ .... it is not just the 'conservative' folks but ALL who believe in Ellen White. She indicated that we should "ALWAYS" kneel.

Quote:

"I have received letters questioning me in regard to the proper attitude to be taken by a person offering prayer to the Sovereign of the universe. Where have our brethren obtained the idea that they should stand upon their feet when praying to God? One who has been educated for about five years in Battle Creek was asked to lead in prayer before Sister White should speak to the people. But as I beheld him standing upright upon his feet while his lips were about to open in prayer to God, my soul was stirred within me to give him an open rebuke. Calling him by name, I said, "Get down upon your knees." This is the proper position always." (Selected Messages, Vol. 2, p. 311)

[Amelia]

Quote:

Ellen White. She indicated that we should "ALWAYS" kneel.

Did Jesus ALWAYS kneel?

Quote:

Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed,

When the apostles asked Jesus to teach them to pray, Jesus didn't instruct them with any physical ritual.

There are numerous times in the bible where Jesus prayed but in all but a few cases He went away, alone to pray. We don't know how He prayed on those occasions. Was He silent? Did He talk out loud to His Father? I don't get the impression it was very important. The important thing we are taught is to pray. Pray and not give up. Luke 18:1

[Woody]

Quote:

Matthew 26:39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed,

He was probably still on His knees when He had His face to the ground. It does say He went just a "little" further.

[Amelia]

If you read that in context, it means Jesus went a little further away from the apostles, then fell.

[Woody]

Do we always have to be so concerned with "context"? It sounded much better the way I said it. But that is what I get for reading just snippets.

[Amelia]

Quote:

Do we always have to be so concerned with "context"?

Oh yes. Without context how do we know the truth of what we are reading or hearing? What if you were on trial for something you were accused of saying. But the jury only hears 2 or 3 seemingly condeming words? Wouldn't you push for them to hear the whole of it to aquit yourself?

[Woody]

Ok. You win.

[cardw]

Quote:

"I have received letters questioning me in regard to the proper attitude to be taken by a person offering prayer to the Sovereign of the universe. Where have our brethren obtained the idea that they should stand upon their feet when praying to God? One who has been educated for about five years in Battle Creek was asked to lead in prayer before Sister White should speak to the people. But as I beheld him standing upright upon his feet while his lips were about to open in prayer to God, my soul was stirred within me to give him an open rebuke. Calling him by name, I said, "Get down upon your knees." This is the proper position always." (Selected Messages, Vol. 2, p. 311)

It is statements like these that I find so abusive to people's joy. Ellen White is full of this Victorian foolishness. I read this as a child and took this very seriously. There is no comfort or safety to be found when you worship a God who rebukes you for the smallest slight. Ellen White shows that she was no messenger of God, but simply a mean spirited nag.

[John317]

Quote:

"I have received letters questioning me in regard to the proper attitude to be taken by a person offering prayer to the Sovereign of the universe. Where have our brethren obtained the idea that they should stand upon their feet when praying to God? One who has been educated for about five years in Battle Creek was asked to lead in prayer before Sister White should speak to the people. But as I beheld him standing upright upon his feet while his lips were about to open in prayer to God, my soul was stirred within me to give him an open rebuke. Calling him by name, I said, "Get down upon your knees." This is the proper position always." (Selected Messages, Vol. 2, p. 311)

It is statements like these that I find so abusive to people's joy. Ellen White is full of this Victorian foolishness. I read this as a child and took this very seriously. There is no comfort or safety to be found when you worship a God who rebukes you for the smallest slight. Ellen White shows that she was no messenger of God, but simply a mean spirited nag.

Read all the other things she says about prayer, and also read what those who knew Ellen White best wrote about her. You will find that she isn't portrayed as a mean spirited nag by any of them.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Woody]

I agree with this John317. It is best to go by those who "knew" her rather than strictly what she said. Try reading Steps To Christ to get a better picture of Ellen White. I would stay away from the compliations.

[John317]

One thing that might be considered here, too, is the fact that Ellen White was not inspired in everything she spoke to people or in all her actions. I'm not saying that she was wrong to say what she said to that man who was about to pray standing up, but we know from other things she wrote (for instance, to her young boys) that she also said things that she later wished she hadn't said or that she had said them differently.

Being a "messenger of the Lord" didn't make Ellen White an absolutely perfect person who had no faults whatsoever. James and Ellen White had plenty of disagreements and he even came to the point where it was best for them to be apart from each other for a while because they both had personality clashes with one another. Both were very strong personalities and had profound convictions, and they sometimes felt that the other was trying to control them in personal ways. In many ways, they were a typical couple, of course.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[cardw]

Quote:

Read all the other things she says about prayer, and also read what those who knew Ellen White best wrote about her. You will find that she isn't portrayed as a mean spirited nag by any of them.

This is not true. If we are going to read ALL that she says, then we need to read ALL who wrote about her. The picture is quite different depending on who you read.

A particular glaring example is the scathing letter she wrote to J.N. Andrews after he lost his wife and daughter.

"She said that 'if you go down into the grave, I do not want you should go down in deception.' ...she proceeded to enumerate his character defects. Feeling that the Andrews and Stevens families had been a bad mix from the beginning, she believed they had fostered his desire "to crave for sympathy, to love to be pitied, to be regarded as one suffering privations and as a martyr. She told him of his sin of dwelling on himself, of mourning for his wife and daughter as he had done... Dwelling at length on his rejection of her counsel regarding remarriage [he never did], she told him that he had not been a good father to his son, Charles."

He died soon after this letter was written. And yet you will read in her personal letters complaint after complaint of physical illness, mental anguish, and suffering. It is so prevalent in her writings that it is exhausting to read. It appears that she, rather than J. N. Andrews, craved sympathy and saw herself as a martyr. Her rebukes appear to often be simply projections of her own failings rather than messages from God.

It is apparent that if you are on her good side she heaps exaggerated praises and when you cross her or you get in the way of her plans or get more attention for your sufferings than her, you get scathing rebukes.

[John317]

Quote:

Read all the other things she says about prayer, and also read what those who knew Ellen White best wrote about her. You will find that she isn't portrayed as a mean spirited nag by any of them.

This is not true. If we are going to read ALL that she says, then we need to read ALL who wrote about her. The picture is quite different depending on who you read.

A particular glaring example is the scathing letter she wrote to J.N. Andrews after he lost his wife and daughter.

"She said that 'if you go down into the grave, I do not want you should go down in deception.' ...she proceeded to enumerate his character defects. Feeling that the Andrews and Stevens families had been a bad mix from the beginning, she believed they had fostered his desire "to crave for sympathy, to love to be pitied, to be regarded as one suffering privations and as a martyr. She told him of his sin of dwelling on himself, of mourning for his wife and daughter as he had done... Dwelling at length on his rejection of her counsel regarding remarriage [he never did], she told him that he had not been a good father to his son, Charles."

He died soon after this letter was written. And yet you will read in her personal letters complaint after complaint of physical illness, mental anguish, and suffering. It is so prevalent in her writings that it is exhausting to read. It appears that she, rather than J. N. Andrews, craved sympathy and saw herself as a martyr. Her rebukes appear to often be simply projections of her own failings rather than messages from God.

It is apparent that if you are on her good side she heaps exaggerated praises and when you cross her or you get in the way of her plans or get more attention for your sufferings than her, you get scathing rebukes.

Ellen White was not the only one who saw these problems in J.N. Andrews. There are a number of good biographies on J.N. Andrews and they discuss these issues.

Regards,

"John 3: 17"

[Amelia]

*****

Everyone, please remember this thread is about prayer not about Ellen White.

Thanks

Amelia

[Woody]

Quote:

I cannot read of a silent prayer in the Bible, but I may have missed that..

Thoughts??

Ellen White has some wonderful advice to a husband and father. The advice includes a silent prayer but also includes much more.

I thought this was really good. I hope all you fathers and husbands will read all of it.

Quote:

In the daily life you will meet with sudden surprises, disappointments, and temptations. What saith the word? "Resist the devil," by firm reliance upon God, "and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and He will draw nigh to you." "Let him take hold of My strength, that he may make peace with Me; and he shall make peace with Me." Look unto Jesus at all times and in all places, offering a silent prayer from a sincere heart that you may know how to do His will. Then when the enemy comes in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord will lift up a standard for you against the enemy. When you are almost ready to yield, to lose patience and self-control, to be hard and denunciatory, to find fault and accuse--this is the time for you to send to heaven the prayer, "Help me, O God, to resist temptation, to put all bitterness and wrath and evilspeaking out of my heart. Give me Thy meekness, Thy lowliness, Thy long-suffering, and Thy love. Leave me not to dishonor my Redeemer, to misinterpret the words and motives of my wife, my children, and my brethren and sisters in the faith. Help me that I may be kind, pitiful, tenderhearted, forgiving. Help me to be a real house-band in my home and to represent the character of Christ to others." AH 214

Pretty Good huh ....

[cardw]

Quote:

Quote:

When you are almost ready to yield, to lose patience and self-control, to be hard and denunciatory, to find fault and accuse--this is the time for you to send to heaven the prayer, "Help me, O God, to resist temptation, to put all bitterness and wrath and evilspeaking out of my heart. Give me Thy meekness, Thy lowliness, Thy long-suffering, and Thy love. Leave me not to dishonor my Redeemer, to misinterpret the words and motives of my wife, my children, and my brethren and sisters in the faith. Help me that I may be kind, pitiful, tenderhearted, forgiving. Help me to be a real house-band in my home and to represent the character of Christ to others." AH 214

Pretty Good huh ....

Yeah, it might have been nice if she had read her own advice before sending out that letter to J. N. Andrews. If this was what she actually practiced I think I would find her more believable, but when she says that we always have to kneel and publicly rebukes people in such cruel manners.

I used to do this stuff and the fruit of it is simply shame. I doesn't feel authentic and it constantly focuses on faults. It over examines a lot of this stuff and creates these 1950's sitcom ideals.

Its a pretty picture, but its not real.

[Taylor]

Prayer for God to alieviate the stress and calm one's nerves so one can act in a loving manner towards people who are currently irritating...does work. There is nothing God can't do for people. If he can raise people from the dead, he certainly has the power to calm the inner turmoil of one's soul.

[Planey]

There is nothing God can't do for people.

If He chooses to. It seems to me (certainly from my own experience) that many times (again, in my own case, almost always) it would appear that His personal choice is to not do anything.

In most cases for me it's like talking to a brick wall.

If I had a human friend that ignored me as much as He does, the friendship would have worn extremely thin by now.

Graeme

[Neil D]

In most cases for me it's like talking to a brick wall.

If I had a human friend that ignored me as much as He does, the friendship would have worn extremely thin by now.

Graeme

Well, Graeme, it seems to me that for you to hang around, He must be communicating in other ways that are not as obvious....Hmmmmm?