Woody Posted February 17, 2008 Posted February 17, 2008 Hear hear ... Yes Shane. Bravus is appreciated here. We can learn much from him. And if we or our church can't stand questions ... then we don't have much truth. This is deserving of another Redwood Snippet .... Quote: “Truth is eternal, and conflict with error will only make manifest its strength.” Counsels to Writers and Editors,Ellen G. White, p. 44. “No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation.” CW 35. And the same applies to Ellen White. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted February 17, 2008 Moderators Posted February 17, 2008 My thinking is this: Why bring a child into a dying world polluted with all its problems under its god, Lucifer? This is a sad rationalization that eugenics uses... In view of our temporary human suffering it may seem at times(just like Job noted) that it would have been better for us not to be born at all... Just for the sake of accuracy, I never said anything like the above. You were replying to a statement by Robert on post # 157331. Regards, "John 3: 17" Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 17, 2008 Moderators Posted February 17, 2008 ... And if we or our church can't stand questions ... then we don't have much truth.... The questions are not the problem. Questions are good. The problem is that they so seldom get seriously discussed and resolved. So many questions are asked that are not answered when answers are available. Pilate asked, "What is truth?" but then he wasn't ready for the answer, although the One who created the universe and had all the answers was standing right in front of him. Sometimes answers aren't accepted, not because they aren't true or good answers, but because the answers aren't what the person is looking for. Quote: “No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation.” CW 35. And the same applies to Ellen White. I believe this. Every generation has to settle these things personally through their own individual study, prayers, and reflection. But once you settle a question in your own thinking, there shouldn't be any need to go back over every question again as if you haven't studied it and come to a conclusion. Some people are still asking if God exists and if the Bible is trustworthy and if Ellen White was a true prophet or what that means. Reminds me of the Bible verse, "Always learning and never coming to a knowledge of the truth." Regards, "John 3: 17" Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
fccool Posted February 17, 2008 Posted February 17, 2008 Thank you for clarification. Either way, I've made my point :) Quote
Woody Posted February 17, 2008 Posted February 17, 2008 Quote: Some people are still asking ... Some take longer than others. It is OK to wrestle with questions. Actually some questions we may never personally get answers until we get to heaven. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted February 17, 2008 Posted February 17, 2008 Personally ... I don't claim to have the answers. I keep asking the questions as if I never asked them before. WHY? Because I find the more I ask the more perspectives I get from people. I learn things that I never dreamed of. Just when I think I REALLY know ... someone comes up with something I never would have thought of. This is why I really believe we have to have tolerance for ALL beliefs. It is not knowledge that matters. It is LOVE that God wants us to FULLY understand. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted February 17, 2008 Moderators Posted February 17, 2008 Quote: Some people are still asking ... Some take longer than others. It is OK to wrestle with questions. Actually some questions we may never personally get answers until we get to heaven. I agree, but the tragedy is that some never get past the basic questions of whether God exists or whether the Bible is trustworthy or reliable. While growing up, one of my closest friends never got past those questions. He would seem to have resolved them in his own mind for about a week or two, but then the next week he would be back to square one. Sadly, he was diagnosed as having schizophrenia when he was in college, and I am sure this played a part in his inability to resolve issues. But is there such a thing as spiritual schizophrenia? I think a Bible term for it is "double-minded." (James 1: 8.) Regards, "John 3: 17" Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Planey Posted February 17, 2008 Posted February 17, 2008 Actually some questions we may never personally get answers until we get to heaven. I know I will not be there so for me as a seeker of answers that is not an option. I have a number of questions. And there are a selection of people on CA who at times volunteer answers (not directly to questions I may have posed but inadvertently during their posts). So far I have found that the posters who make the most sense to me personally are Bravus, Ed (Ichabod), Tom Wetmore, and most especially, Richard (cardw). Not that these people share a particular viewpoint or worldview (they don't) but because they express their thoughts in a clear and well-thought-out way. In terms of a basic philosophy though, Richard resonates most with me. For what it's worth. Graeme Quote Graeme____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Woody Posted February 17, 2008 Posted February 17, 2008 Quote: I know I will not be there so for me as a seeker of answers that is not an option. I've heard this kind of response before. But it is my personal belief that people such as yourself ... may not actually know the REAL requirements for Heaven. And when the end comes ... you may actually be going there even though you say you are not. Surprise Surprise ......... Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted February 17, 2008 Moderators Posted February 17, 2008 Quote: I know I will not be there so for me as a seeker of answers that is not an option. I've heard this kind of response before. But it is my personal belief that people such as yourself ... may not actually know the REAL requirements for Heaven. And when the end comes ... you may actually be going there even though you say you are not. Surprise Surprise ......... This is true as a possibility, but it is not a description of the way the Bible says we will get there. One thing we know is that God won't force someone to be there who either doesn't want to be there or wouldn't be happy there. But it is true that we can't judge who will be there, because we don't know people's hearts. I'm sure God will save a lot of people whose salvation will surprise us. He takes everything into consideration, and we know he loves everyone far more than people love themselves, so if there is any possibility of saving someone, we can be sure he will do it. My wife's mother was an uneducated Mexican indian peasant who had no knowledge whatever of God. We can trust God to save her if it is the right thing for her and for the rest of God's universe. In the end, those who are among the saved will agree with all of God's decisions. Regards, "John 3: 17" Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted February 17, 2008 Moderators Posted February 17, 2008 I know I will not be there so for me as a seeker of answers that is not an option. I have a number of questions. And there are a selection of people on CA who at times volunteer answers (not directly to questions I may have posed but inadvertently during their posts). So far I have found that the posters who make the most sense to me personally are Bravus, Ed (Ichabod), Tom Wetmore, and most especially, Richard (cardw). Not that these people share a particular viewpoint or worldview (they don't) but because they express their thoughts in a clear and well-thought-out way. In terms of a basic philosophy though, Richard resonates most with me. For what it's worth. Graeme Great to hear that you find some people on CA that you agree with. I suppose the main thing is to stay with CA and keep taking part in the discussions no matter what you think. Regards, "John 3: 17" Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Neil D Posted February 17, 2008 Posted February 17, 2008 Originally Posted By: Graeme I know I will not be there so for me as a seeker of answers that is not an option. I've heard this kind of response before. But it is my personal belief that people such as yourself ... may not actually know the REAL requirements for Heaven. And when the end comes ... you may actually be going there even though you say you are not. Surprise Surprise ......... Well, Graeme...Seems that I am not the only one who appreciates your viewpoints...even though you might be some [ahem] self proclaimed agnostic who will not make it thru heaven's door.... Somehow, I suspect that you might be saved in spite of yourself.....Oooh, and I can imagine how you would react....[Gomer Pyle voice] Surprise! Surprise! Surprise! Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
Woody Posted February 17, 2008 Posted February 17, 2008 Quote: ....[Gomer Pyle voice] Surprise! Surprise! Surprise! Hey ... you stole MY line. I just didn't label it as Gomer's. But I do agree. Surprise Surprise Surprise Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Neil D Posted February 17, 2008 Posted February 17, 2008 Ack! I didn't steal your line...I improved it..now it's mine! [nose in the air in mock superiority]. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
Moderators Bravus Posted February 17, 2008 Moderators Posted February 17, 2008 Good discussion here, and some good responses to the questions I raised. Just a couple of quick responses to the responses: 1. John317, I appreciate your answer to the questions. It's the one I hear most often from Adventists, and it basically boils down to 'all or nothing'. Every word of the Bible is considered to be inspired, and therefore questioning any means you are discarding all. I understand that position very well, but as I indicated, what worries me is that increasingly it seems as though it forces me into the corner of having to reject it all. Or else to embrace it all, and outrage my own personal moral code in a large number of ways. I know that's your point: my personal moral code does not trump Scripture and should be brought in line with it. Where that leaves me is in trouble and doubt and confusion... which makes me grateful to have this place so I can discuss these things and try to understand. 2. Rob, since I don't *have* a clear position on evolution - essentially I guess I'm agnostic about origins, except to believe that God is the originator of all - I'm not sure how it reflects on the rest of my beliefs. Except, of course, in that same 'embrace it all or else' way. Paul was pretty explicit in these texts about saying that this was his own reasoning not a message from God directly. It's a pastor's message to his flock, in particular circumstances. Surely, if we 'embrace it all', those warnings and disclaimers and clarifications are part of what we embrace too? The bottom line is that I do not believe marriage is a second-best alternative. Rather, it is God's ordained path for us. We're in a sin-sick world so many marriages are broken, but that doesn't invalidate the whole institution. I also believe that that view of marriage is Biblical - read any good study on marriage, or do your own. Look at the whole Bible, not a few texts. Quote Truth is important
Moderators Bravus Posted February 17, 2008 Moderators Posted February 17, 2008 PS I raised about half a dozen questions, but really only one has been addressed, and really only from one perspective. Is there no-one who is willing to take on the tougher theological/philosophical 'meat' of saying 'if Paul is wrong on this, what then for the rest of the Bible?' Because I do not think that the only choice available is between absolute positivism (everything in the Bible is right) and absolute relativism (anything goes). I believe there can be Biblical, defensible, grounds for choosing specific parts of the Bible as binding and others as not: someone already brought up the issue of animal sacrifice. So clearly, everyone here (unless some of you are stabbing sheep in the throat in secret) believes that some parts of the Bible are no longer binding and that there are good grounds on which those decisions are made. Quote Truth is important
Moderators Bravus Posted February 17, 2008 Moderators Posted February 17, 2008 The other reason I think Paul is wrong on this is because it reduces marriage to (a) a hassle and ( being all about sex. Sex is a small, though very important, part of a marriage, but a marriage is about friendship, companionship, mutual support, and encouraging each other to be the best we can be. I'd argue that a good marriage makes a person *more* effective in the world and in service rather than less. Quote Truth is important
Woody Posted February 17, 2008 Posted February 17, 2008 Bravus .... the usual trump card for determining what we accept in the Bible and EGW is CULTURE. But then it is left to each person to determine how culture changed things. And a relationship with God IS a personal thing anyway. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
David Koot Posted February 17, 2008 Posted February 17, 2008 I believe there can be Biblical, defensible, grounds for choosing specific parts of the Bible as binding and others as not: someone already brought up the issue of animal sacrifice. So clearly, everyone here (unless some of you are stabbing sheep in the throat in secret) believes that some parts of the Bible are no longer binding and that there are good grounds on which those decisions are made. The Bible itself explains that change in Heb. ch. 7 - 10. It in no way detracts from the inspiration of Scripture, or any portion of Scripture. Nor is there anything in Scripture that could be pointed to as not inspired by God. "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God." The whole Book is inspired, without a doubt. Dave Quote
David Koot Posted February 17, 2008 Posted February 17, 2008 I raised about half a dozen questions, but really only one has been addressed, and really only from one perspective. Is there no-one who is willing to take on the tougher theological/philosophical 'meat' of saying 'if Paul is wrong on this, what then for the rest of the Bible?' Indeed? I disagree with you when you say that Paul was wrong on that one, and I further disagree that any portion of Scripture is wrong. I should be pleased to take this one on, in a bit. Busy right now. Dave Quote
Moderators Bravus Posted February 17, 2008 Moderators Posted February 17, 2008 Fair enough - I'll look forward to your discussion, which I always enjoy. Quote Truth is important
David Koot Posted February 17, 2008 Posted February 17, 2008 And discussions like this, with someone like Bravus, are one big reason why a forum such as this one can be a pleasant, indeed enjoyable place. Stimulating, challenging, yet civil. To the hounds, then, erelong. Dave Quote
Robert Posted February 17, 2008 Author Posted February 17, 2008 My thinking is this: Why bring a child into a dying world polluted with all its problems under its god, Lucifer? ... life on earth is NOT all suffering... especially in moderately developed countries. Quote
Neil D Posted February 17, 2008 Posted February 17, 2008 Indeed? I disagree with you when you say that Paul was wrong on that one, and I further disagree that any portion of Scripture is wrong. [snip] Dave If Paul gives his opinion in scripture, does that make it 'inspiried'? Is it possible to have such a level of knowledge of God that one can determine what is opinion and what is considered to be inspired writings? IOWs, can one disagree with a dead prophet and still be right? It opens up a can of worms....oh boy, ...someone is gonna get cooked...So, I will leave that part of the kitchen and watch what happens.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
Robert Posted February 17, 2008 Author Posted February 17, 2008 I also believe that that view of marriage is Biblical - read any good study on marriage, or do your own. Look at the whole Bible, not a few texts. Marriage is Biblical, but since we are all products of the fall Paul suggests that it is not the best because of human nature and the world under Satan. Do you want less complication in your life? Then remain single. That's what I hear him saying....But for those who are married, remain so.... Quote
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