Russian Writers, Moved Thread

[fccool]

You're right about the Russian names. I've seen Turgeniff's, Tolstoi's, and Dostoyevski's names spelled different ways. I agree about Pushkin. Didn't he translate some of Shakespeare into Russian? What do you think of Boris Pasternack? I wish I could read him and Yevteshinko in the original.

I think it is amazing now looking back at it all how much of the authors really dove deep into "knowing God" and human condition... even during the soviet times when God was looked the opiate of the masses. But then again, many of the writers were the intelligencia that stood in the way of the Soviet Ideology. So they hid behind the allusions and allegory. Just read Bulgakov's "God's Heart". I hope that this is the book that you are referring to. It is very critical of communist regime and I think for that Bulgakov was unknown in Soviet Russia till ages later.

I think it's unfortunate that Americans don't know the poets and don't receive much education in them. They help you appreciate so much in life. My favorites are the English Romantics, Wordsworth, Shelley, Keats, and Blake.

I agree. Most of the OT Bible ,as I understand, is a poetry. I think that young people today do get their fair share of poetry through modern music as music today is an outlet for poets, but most of it is ankle deep. At least the stuff that being pushed as "popular" today. The difference between the classics and "contemporary" is always the timelessness of writings. I've just read "Adventist Home" and it was as though it was written yesterday (except for a couple of things). In the same manner, I love timeless poetry. It does keep me going when rough times hit. It reminds me that everything is not that bad, and there are people behind me who overcame, not by their own strengths, but by their faith in God.

Do you ever read any American writers? We have some who are similar to various Russian authors. For instance, Ernest Hemingway is very similar in different ways to Issac Babel; and the early books of Henry James were stylistically similar to Turgeniff. We don't have anyone as great as Tolstoi or Dostoyevsky, although Herman Melville and Hawthorne are close in terms of depth, but no one who has their range or their insight into human nature.

Although not American, I always compared Joseph Conrad to Dostoyevski and Tolstoy. I remember that I was sweating while reading crime and punishment . I would not recommend or put him on the same level, but I do consider Chuck Palahniuk to be comparable to Dostoyevski in some ways. He does go deep wrestling with the same questions, although he does it in a more "shock jock" way. If you can filter through the "unchristian stuff", then I would recommend "Survivor" and "Fight Club". I think if Dostoyevski was alive today, he would touch on similar issues.

I have Bulgakov's best known book in my library but have not read it yet.

Once again, I recommend to start with "Dog's heart"

[jasd]

QR frame:

I suggest that the “B” must be a typo and the actual word being elicited is the “C” word; as in, Carp – per example: There is too much personal carping going on...

On a more serious note:

...and truly doth ASolzhenitsyn write:

"And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling in terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand . . . . The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!" [ed.jasd (...powerful word - if)]

I don’t know how best the Academe might describe him per the aesthetic arts – but I mark him as one of those tracing that vanishing breed – of Realists. The above quoted passage alone places Alexandr eminent among the Russian, or all, writers, imho.

Edited: for the gravitas of 'Oops!' (I suppose this ought to have more rightly found itself in the 1/2 and half thread

[John317]

I had heard that since returning to Russia, Alexander Solzhenitsyn lost some respect and sympathy. Do you know if this is true? If so, has he regained them?

What is the last book by him to be published?

[John317]

... Just read Bulgakov's "God's Heart"... Once again, I recommend to start with "Dog's heart"...

The title is Dog's Heart, right? I haven't seen that in the book stores but will look for it. I think the name of the one book by him that I have is called Master and Margarita. I'll read it as well as the one you mention.

[fccool]

Yes,

Dog's heart... .

Master and Margarita is one of the most ambiguous book of his. I have read it and it frankly went over my head as I was 13 when I did read it. I need to give it another try when I get some free time.

[fccool]

I had heard that since returning to Russia, Alexander Solzhenitsyn lost some respect and sympathy. Do you know if this is true? If so, has he regained them?

What is the last book by him to be published?

He was always a rebel at heart IMO who was not afraid to speak his mind. He was received well in US because of his criticism of Soviet Regime. When he returned to Russia he did not observe any changes as "new democracy" was based on same type of oligarchical structure that communism was based on. People with most political connections and money got their way. So the same communist leaders who ruled before... still ruled under different labels. He wrote a couple of criticisms on that issue in 90s. I think he had a TV show too if I remember correctly, but I've never seen it.

I think he did drive home the "what comes around, goes around" nature of societies... i.e. the results that we observe today is due to our post-modern thought of trying to find other ways around God... anything but God.

[D. Allan]

hey where is the beginning of this moved thread? did i miss something good? :)

[John317]

You're right about the Russian names. I've seen Turgeniff's, Tolstoi's, and Dostoyevski's names spelled different ways. I agree about Pushkin. Didn't he translate some of Shakespeare into Russian? What do you think of Boris Pasternack? I wish I could read him and Yevteshinko in the original.

Quote:

I think it is amazing now looking back at it all how much of the authors really dove deep into "knowing God" and human condition... even during the soviet times when God was looked the opiate of the masses. But then again, many of the writers were the intelligencia that stood in the way of the Soviet Ideology. So they hid behind the allusions and allegory. Just read Bulgakov's "God's Heart". I hope that this is the book that you are referring to. It is very critical of communist regime and I think for that Bulgakov was unknown in Soviet Russia till ages later.

My impression from reading Russian history and Russian literature is that Russians are actually some of the most profoundly religious people on earth. Even the so-called atheists in the best Russian literature have deeply religious souls. (I'm only going by what I've read in books because I haven't even met a Russian in my whole life, at least to talk to and get to know personally.) For instance, Ivan in the section "Pro and Contra" and especially the marvelous chapter, "Grand Inquisitor," of Brother's Karamazov. And Raskolnikov in Crime and Punishment. At bottom they are seeking God even though they don't believe. They want Him to exist and sometimes seem angry that he doesn't exist.

We don't have any Americans like those characters, except perhaps Captain Ahab in Moby Dick. They would not be considered realistic portrayals of Americans if they were transplanted into our stories. As you read those books, do you find you have known some Russians like them?

Both Nietzsche and Freud learned a lot of psychology from reading Dostoyevsky. Neitzsche learned from Dostoyevsky and then Freud picked up a lot from Nietzsche. Dostoyevsky looked deeply into his own soul, and what he saw there, he simply applied to Everyman.

Yes, the major poetry is found in the Prophets, the Psalms and Wisdom literature, but poetry also occurs all through the Old Testament, such as in these lines, "At her feet he sank, he fell, he lay still; at her feet he sank, he fell; where he sank, there he fell dead." Judges 5: 27.

[John317]

hey where is the beginning of this moved thread? did i miss something good?

Yes. it started on the thread, "What Does This Forum Remind You Of".

[D. Allan]

Thanks, John 317 :)

[John317]

You're certainly welcome. I know you love words and poetry and all those other wonderful things we've been talking about too.

Just a question, which I know it is not exactly in line with this thread-- have you ever read much of the Beat generation writers, esp. Jack Karouac and Allen Ginsberg?

[D. Allan]

I read Kerouac's On the Road ca. 40 yrs ago. Not much Ginsberg. The British 'beat' Kinsly Amis wrote a novel i read about the same time called if i can remember correctly, Lucky Jim which i found at the time hilarious.

The beats don't resonate with me. How about you? More sympatico is the work of Robert Lowell, his poetry and his memoirs about his family. He has to be classed among the great American writers, wouldn't you agree? Another great American is Reynolds Price. His short stories are masterly, and i'd class them with the best. His autobiographical memoir about his illness shows deep seriousness about his spiritual life: A Whole New Life (1994 memoir describing his survival of spinal cancer that started in 1984 and left him paralyzed).

Of the Russian novels i've read 'The Brothers Karamazov' twice, and 'War and Peace' three times. Our American novel 'Moby Dick' I've read twice, so i'd have to say Melville is right up there with the big boys. Of course I have read some of Nabokov's work more than once also, namely 'Pale Fire.' It is amusing.

Gogol is a great writer and 'Dead Souls' is a great book. I think he wrote a great short story called 'The Overcoat' of which Nabokov wrote a wonderful analysis.

[fccool]

...."Grand Inquisitor," of Brother's Karamazov. And Raskolnikov in Crime and Punishment. At bottom they are seeking God even though they don't believe. They want Him to exist and sometimes seem angry that he doesn't exist.

We don't have any Americans like those characters, except perhaps Captain Ahab in Moby Dick. They would not be considered realistic portrayals of Americans if they were transplanted into our stories. As you read those books, do you find you have known some Russians like them?

Certainly... but that generation is dying out as Western values are taking over. I disagree that there are no such American characters as there are plenty. Take the Minister and Hester from "Scarlet Letter", Jurgis and Ona in "Jungle", Faulkner's Sartoris, just to name a few examples. I think what is different in Russian writers is their Universal approach to subject of human nature that could be applied to just about anyone. People recognize themselves and can easily relate to these characters.

Have you ever looked at the symbolism of the names themselves in Russian classics? Rakolnikov - means somebody who will crack..., Sophia means wisdom - as she says "don't you fear God?"... the righteous prostitute. So there's a lot of thought put into the writing and symbolism which indeed make it timeless and universal.

Looking at today's literature... it is entertaining and pragmatic, yet lacks that timeless factor. As in Fathers and Sons, when Bazarov who is self proclaimed nihilist is objecting to the timeless principles, eventually gets killed by avoiding the same principles that he claims are irrelevant... by a scratch on his finger essentially. Just showing that no matter how small and insignificant principle might be, ignoring it might lead to fatal consequences. We can rationalize all we want, but the reality proves otherwise and knowledge of those who came before us will most likely prove to be correct. This theme is often expressed in Russian classics.

[John317]

I read Kerouac's On the Road ca. 40 yrs ago. Not much Ginsberg.

I came across Kerouac's book, On the Road, in Omaha during the summer of '68 while I was in the middle of a long hitch-hiking trip across the U.S. I was attracted to it because it was a story about something I was doing at the time.

I liked the parts about getting rides and traveling through the different cities that I was passing through, but I didn't like the characters in it, especially the main one, Dean.

I know the Beats were superficial, but they served their purpose for me anyway.

Ginsberg wrote a few very good poems, many mediocre and some very poor ones. He's kind of a Walt Whitman for the last 45 years of the twentieth century.

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The British 'beat' Kinsly Amis wrote a novel i read about the same time called if i can remember correctly, Lucky Jim which i found at the time hilarious.

I haven't read it but I know about it from having read reviews that it's a very funny satire on British society.

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The beats don't resonate with me. How about you?

Not any more, but they did back in the late 60s, about the time that Kerouac died. Since then I've returned to reading some of them, but most of it is stale now. Gary Snyder is still good and a few others. Parts of Kerouac have lasted, such as the chapter in On the Road about his ride with a Mexican girl on the Greyhound bus and picking cotton near Bakersfield.

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More sympatico is the work of Robert Lowell, his poetry and his memoirs about his family. He has to be classed among the great American writers, wouldn't you agree?

Yes, I sure would. Besides being himself a great poet, he was an important influence on some very good women poets, who took writing classes from him. Two of the best were Anne Sexton and Sylvia Plath. All three wrote a kind of confessional poetry wrung out of personal, mental pain and anguish, which can often be distressing to you as the reader if you care about them.

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Another great American is Reynolds Price. His short stories are masterly, and i'd class them with the best. His autobiographical memoir about his illness shows deep seriousness about his spiritual life: A Whole New Life (1994 memoir describing his survival of spinal cancer that started in 1984 and left him paralyzed).

I haven't ever heard of him, until I just now looked him up by Googling him. I'll get some of his writings and read. He looks good, and I'm very interested in Southern writers anyhow.

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Of the Russian novels i've read 'The Brothers Karamazov' twice, and 'War and Peace' three times. Our American novel 'Moby Dick' I've read twice, so i'd have to say Melville is right up there with the big boys. Of course I have read some of Nabokov's work more than once also, namely 'Pale Fire.' It is amusing.

I think Nabokov is one of our most interesting and best modern writers. I love his style of writing, along with Henry James, Barth, and Pynchon, who also use very complex styles. Lolita is an amazingly good book and contains profound understanding of human nature.

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Gogol is a great writer and 'Dead Souls' is a great book. I think he wrote a great short story called 'The Overcoat' of which Nabokov wrote a wonderful analysis.

I agree with you about Gogol. I think he was the first Russian writer I read, after Dostoevsky. I was in awe of Dead Souls. I thought I had to hide such books from my English teacher at Loma Linda SDA Academy. Then one day in 9th grade the teacher walked by my desk and asked me what I had. When I showed her the book I had--I believe it was Crime and Punishment--she actually complimented me for reading it. I was happily surprised, because she had never assigned any books like it for us to read.

Well I would write more but I have to get ready for work.

Regards.

"John 3: 17"

[D. Allan]

Quote:

I think Nabokov is one of our most interesting and best modern writers. I love his style of writing, along with Henry James, Barth, and Pynchon, who also use very complex styles. Lolita is an amazingly good book and contains profound understanding of human nature.

Oh yes! I read everything i could find of his. Lolita is an amazing book. I'm glad you mentioned it. Nabakov is phenomenal. I just realized that when Quilty is dying from HH's bullets he recites not a 'Hail Mary' nor an 'Our Father' but from T.S. Eloit's poem Ash Wednesday, "Because I do not hope to turn again, Because I do not hope, Because I do not hope to turn, Desiring this man's gift and that man's scope...why should I mourn, The vanished power of the usual reign?" Nabakov is our own American Russian!

Have you (or anyone out there) read Nabakov's Pale Fire? It is written as a long poem, by one deceased 'John Shade' with commentary by a acquaintence who misunderstands the poet completely and reads into the text the most ludricrous figments of his egoistic imagination. One half of the book is the poem, good in itself; the next half is the commentary which is refered to in the poem's text.

Those who love southern American writing will love the short stories of Reynolds Price. I wish I could find my copy of his memoir A Whole New Life so I could quote the first paragraph. There, if i remember rightly, he tells of a vision he had of being transported to the shores of Galilee and being baptized by Jesus himself! He asked Jesus, "Does this mean I am healed." Jesus looked back and said, "I guess so, if you want it."

Does that put him is the same class as Dostoievsky?

BTW I never could finish Crime and Punishment. I read a lot of it because I knew it was higly regarded. But finally I had to quit; it gave me the WILLIES. [shivering]

Tolstoy i venerate because he gave us characters we can love: Prince Andrei and his sister, Pierre Bezukov, General Ketuzov, the Rostov siblings.... I remember little of the plot or plots but the characters seem like old friends i haven't seen in a long time.

[D. Allan]

Quote:

Looking at today's literature... it is entertaining and pragmatic, yet lacks that timeless factor. As in Fathers and Sons, when Bazarov who is self proclaimed nihilist is objecting to the timeless principles, eventually gets killed by avoiding the same principles that he claims are irrelevant... by a scratch on his finger essentially. Just showing that no matter how small and insignificant principle might be, ignoring it might lead to fatal consequences. We can rationalize all we want, but the reality proves otherwise and knowledge of those who came before us will most likely prove to be correct. This theme is often expressed in Russian classics.

You may be right about todays writing being more entertaining than timeless, fccool. I recently finished a novel by Alice Hoffman, Practical Magic; and she writes like an angel. Although many things go badly in the plot everything turns out a-ok just like a Hollywood movie. I loved reading it though.

Its just recently that i began to read novels again. After the age of 35 or 40 i sortof lost the ability to stay up reading until the hours; and stuck to nonfiction. It doesn't keep me awake. Now that I'm tired AND retired i have time for good fiction. So maybe i will yet come to find something timeless in American writing.

Well, I just want to put in a good word for entertaining literature. Rabelais gave me a few good laughs before boring me. Cervantes really entertained me with his Don Quixote. Laurence Sterne, made me laugh many an evening after working all day then spending time with his 18th century character Tristam Shandy. Well they are not Russians, but isn't there something timeless about being entertained by such characters? Does Russian literature have equivalent masters of lightness and levity?