1 out of 100 americans in american prisons.

[CyberGuy]

NEW YORK - For the first time in U.S. history, more than one of every 100 adults is in jail or prison, according to a new report documenting America’s rank as the world’s No. 1 incarcerator. It urges states to curtail corrections spending by placing fewer low-risk offenders behind bars.

Using state-by-state data, the report says 2,319,258 Americans were in jail or prison at the start of 2008 — one out of every 99.1 adults. Whether per capita or in raw numbers, it’s more than any other nation.

The report, released Thursday by the Pew Center on the States, said the 50 states spent more than $49 billion on corrections last year, up from less than $11 billion 20 years earlier. The rate of increase for prison costs was six times greater than for higher education spending, the report said.

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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23392251

[CyberGuy]

For a country that touts itself to be for freedom how is it that we have more of our population behind bars percentage wise than even the most intolerant states on the planet.

Maybe it is time to stop putting people in prison for the slightest offence.

We can ill afford to lenthen sentences and put people away for life on three felony convictions. I have heard it said that 1 in 20 will be in prison or parole within 20 years. Maybe even more.

What do you think we should do.

[Dr. Shane]

The problem is putting non-violent criminals behind bars. Community service, fines and rehabilitation in conjunction with probation are much better solutions.

[Lil Star]

This is a GENERAL post......and NOT in reply to anyone.

What some consider violent others do not. What others don't, some consider violent. How would one determine which is which?

[Dr. Shane]

We have a classification system in place already that distinguishes that. A lot of jails across the country are filled with DWI offenders. Rather than putting these offenders in jail, we could fine them 5% of their wages for a year which would be garnished from their wages.

[Lil Star]

---Devil's advocate here---

What about the DWI person that hits someone? Does that automatically a violent crime? Think he could beat that rap should he take it to court? Probably

What if he hits another car? What if he runs afterward? What do those constitute?

[CyberGuy]

America is putting people in prison for the slightest offense. It starting to weigh heavily on our states bearing the bulk of the burden of supporting prisons on the tax payers back that do not want to pay it.

The three strikes law seemed good at the time it was passed but now we are hearing of men being put away for life for stealing a pizza which was their third strike.

Or a man shoving a boy which was assult and put away for life because that was his third strike.

This is starting to get out of hand. We pay doctors and dentists to take care of these men and women for years while they are in prison. This cost all adds up.

I think we need to re evaluate what is really neccessary prison time and what fines or community service would serve better.

[CyberGuy]

---Devil's advocate here---

What about the DWI person that hits someone? Does that automatically a violent crime? Think he could beat that rap should he take it to court? Probably

What if he hits another car? What if he runs afterward? What do those constitute?

We are not saying that some prison time is neccessary for some offenses where bodily harm was done to another. We are just saying that putting people in prison for every little offense is really getting out of hand.

[Robert]

The rich generally make the rules. There's all sorts of injustice out there. In short we are a nation of hypocrites....

[John317]

Generally speaking, people living in a democratic republic get both the leaders and the laws that they deserve.

[fccool]

I found it fascinating that in Ancient Israel they did not have prison system. That's what the slavery system was for pretty much. Person who wronged someone was to pay twice the amount, and if he could not repay... then he became indentured servant for a certain amount of time. The masters would also take care of slaves, fed them and provided shelter. So the entire correctional facility revolved around the family. I don't think anyone risked killing someone, because it would mean loosing their life too.

I don't think that this kind of system would ever work in our culture.

[Amelia]

*GP*

There is a difference between prison and jail. Not every offense puts a person in prison. Some go to jail. Lots of people gp free due to lack of jail space.

[CyberGuy]

The minimun federal security prisons are the best to be in. When my brother in law was sentenced to five years in a federal minimun security prison it was a huge yard with a electrified 10 foot fence with big rings of barb wire on top. There was a baseball diamond in the middle of the yard with stands for spectators etc. My Brother in law said they could go walking in that yard any time day or night and no one would stop them. They only had to be at the roll calls three times a day to make sure they were still in prison and had not escaped. Other than that it was not that bad my brother in law reported. However the maximun security prison right next door was different. It had huge towers and thick walls and looked like a fortress right next door to the minimun security prison. That is where they held the hard core criminals like murders and gang members. If you tried to escape from the minimun security prison that is where they would send you the maximun security prison.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Quote:

NEW YORK - For the first time in U.S. history, more than one of every 100 adults is in jail or prison,

There's alot more in prison than that.

Norman

[Dottie]

Does anyone know what is the return rate to Joe Arpayo's (sp) facility??

[Dr. Rich]

I need to explain to many of you that as a retired Police Officer and now an investigative lawyer, AND on who did a year in Federal Prison as a 'public enemy of the state', attempting to force the Government to admit the IRS and the tax system is unlawful, I can honestly say that the Justice System/Courts/governments are totally broken and will never be able to get fixed! The prison system is just another way of preventing people from attempting to change the status quo. It is also a control on everyone so that they don't mess with the system.

Yes, there are many that belong there, but then there are many that are just like you. You see there are laws against everything so it will make it easy to put Christians away for their honest belief--if it goes against theirs. Ok, I said my 2 cents worth. Dr. Rich

[John317]

I need to explain to many of you that as a retired Police Officer and now an investigative lawyer, AND on who did a year in Federal Prison as a 'public enemy of the state', attempting to force the Government to admit the IRS and the tax system is unlawful...

You didn't realize you would lose trying to force the government to admit the IRS and the tax system is unlawful? Why did you do it?

Quote:

The prison system is just another way of preventing people from attempting to change the status quo. It is also a control on everyone so that they don't mess with the system.

Can you give some examples?

How is the prison system being used to control me? Isn't there a legal way to change the status quo and shouldn't we try to make changes that way rather than doing it illegally?

What you say sort of echos the words of people like Karl Marx and the radicals of the 1960s. I once had a sociology professor who thought that the police force is actually there to enforce the laws made for the rich and that the police are really only on stand-by for a revolution against the establishment.

[CyberGuy]

John

Don't you think it is ironic that as a freedom loving nation that we have the HIGHEST percentage of our population in prison?

[fccool]

How is the prison system being used to control me? Isn't there a legal way to change the status quo and shouldn't we try to make changes that way rather than doing it illegally?

What you say sort of echos the words of people like Karl Marx and the radicals of the 1960s. I once had a sociology professor who thought that the police force is actually there to enforce the laws made for the rich and that the police are really only on stand-by for a revolution against the establishment.

The problem with the thought that government is inherently "good" for the people is when you realize that government consists of people, and people without God are far from good. In this fallen world I do not see an alternative, and I know that government enforcement is what keeps certain societies from falling apart.

What's different in today's world though, is the scale of the government institution and the scale of interference in day to day human life. There are hundreds of thousands of laws and regulations for every imaginable thing. People pay more than half of their labor to keep the government running, and it in a way became a thing above the society... and not a part of it as it was once before. You can't just find US presidents strolling in the streets, or swimming nude in the Potomac river anymore . Today, people value a life of the president worth value of thousands and perhaps millions of people... I know we don't believe it, but we do by our actions.

Prisons are more than simply loss of freedom for certain period of time. It creates a disenfranchised subculture of criminals who are made to believe that their place on earth is to be a criminal. It's a cultural norm that we learn that a person who was put through prison is bad... the truth is that Biblically we are as bad as people who go through prison . There's no difference in God's eyes between unbeliever in prison and unbeliever with a wig and a gavel, or even a president who we think worth more than one human life.

Karl Marx was not completely wrong pointing out the problems with society. He was dead wrong with his way of solving these problems, but he pointed out the problems with capitalist society. It's by far not the best and Biblical way to go . In fact, ironically USA embraced ideas of Marx and these are integrated into our everyday lives. I can list you the 10 planks of communism, and all 10 are effective in some shape or form in US today. So it's kind of paradoxical to criticize Marx while defending the "capitalism" of today.

As far as prison controlling people... of course it does . It's for fear of prison that many people do or do not do certain things. Most of the people today would not pay taxes if they would be given an option not to. The would not even pay them if there was simply a fine involved. But they will pay them if the punishment is severe. Not that they have any options to pay or now as most employers withhold the tax money automatically. It's a law .

You see, the freedom involves an option of choice. It can not be compulsory. Unfortunately, you can go nowhere in this world an not be required to do something by default. You can't even travel without a piece of paper in your pocket that says that you can.

[Neil D]

Quote:

You see, the freedom involves an option of choice. It can not be compulsory. Unfortunately, you can go nowhere in this world an not be required to do something by default. You can't even travel without a piece of paper in your pocket that says that you can.

I agree that "freedom involves an option of choice." and I agree that it can not be compulsory.....But this idea that "You can't even travel without a piece of paper in your pocket that says that you can." is wrong.....I do it every day...

In some respects, I am compelled to do it...if I want to make sure that my patients are taking good care of themselves...And there is no "documents" that tell me that I am force to see these people...

If you are talking about visas and licenses, well, you are bring up the compulsary problems of society desires to be safe and individual freedoms. And society demands that you meet certain standards before they will let you anything to them...If you want to visit a country, you must ask permission...hence the visa...If you want to drive, you must demonstrate that you obey a knowledge of laws before they allow you the priviledge. You don't have a right to drive...Society gives you the privilege because you have demonstrated a knowledge that you know the rules of the road, and will apply them as a curtisy[sp] for all.

Oh, and this paragraph-

Quote:

As far as prison controlling people... of course it does . It's for fear of prison that many people do or do not do certain things. Most of the people today would not pay taxes if they would be given an option not to. The would not even pay them if there was simply a fine involved. But they will pay them if the punishment is severe. Not that they have any options to pay or now as most employers withhold the tax money automatically. It's a law .

....it doesn't hold water as well as you think it does...Otherwise, we would be very paranoid. I don't think of prison when I go visit my neighbors. I don't think of prison when visit my parents, or my children. I don't think of prison when I pay my taxes...[rather I complain about the amount I have to cough up.] Taxes pay for costs incurred for the public good. It pays for an army to protect me. It pays for social security now, and when I am old, others will pay for me. It pays for the roads that I drive on, the water that I drink, and those administrative costs that allow me the home that I live in. They regulate food/water/health standards that allow me to stay healthy. They regulate commerce so that there is less fraud regarding things that I buy, and maintains a standard so that I can be assured of the quality of the goods that I buy. So, no, fear of prison is NOT what keeps me from doing the things I do....but if it does YOU [speaking generally]...and isn't that a character problem? A fear problem? You live in fear, not in love?

[fccool]

If you are talking about visas and licenses, well, you are bring up the compulsary problems of society desires to be safe and individual freedoms. And society demands that you meet certain standards before they will let you anything to them...If you want to visit a country, you must ask permission...hence the visa...If you want to drive, you must demonstrate that you obey a knowledge of laws before they allow you the privilege. You don't have a right to drive...Society gives you the privilege because you have demonstrated a knowledge that you know the rules of the road, and will apply them as a curtisy[sp] for all.

Neil, you except it as a norm because you were born into the system that says it is a societal norm. Not so long ago this norm did not exist... the norm that states that you have to carry some kind of ID to be identified as individual, otherwise you are a "threat" to the society and breaking some kind of ID law. I don't have a problem with drivers licenses, but I don't think driving is a privilege... just like eating is not a privilege. You can walk to get food, or you can ride a horse. You can drive to get food. Whatever society decides is fine, my point is that by being born into that society nobody asks you what you want . The norms of the previous generation are forced on you whether you like it or not. Once again, I have to live with it, but I don't think it's the better way by far as this system states that you can not trust average individual to have common sense... and through history such distrust was non-existent to the extend we have now. We have adopted the way of Sparta... a totally controlled society, and don't even conceder the way of Athens... which is not without problems, but much more close to "freedom" that we claim to have.

People always ask me why do I drive with "unregistered" (they mean re-registered) car? I tell them that I exercise my freedom to do otherwise as I need to believe that I do have at least that choice in our "free" society. I find it ridiculous to keep "renewing" my registration if nothing changed in my location and the car that I drive. People think that I'm getting away with something, but do I really? It's my car. I do pay enough taxes to cover the road construction and etc. What is the car re-registration for? It's for my protection? If I don't want that protection and no one forces me to have it... then I don't need it. And I found out that my life has not changed outside of other people nagging me to register my car. If my life is the same with or without... then I don't really need whatever it is that would change my life for the better. As an individual I should have an option to opt out of whatever mandatory systematic "protection" that people force on me without asking me first, and every year there are more and more of these.

....it doesn't hold water as well as you think it does...Otherwise, we would be very paranoid. I don't think of prison when I go visit my neighbors. I don't think of prison when visit my parents, or my children. I don't think of prison when I pay my taxes...[rather I complain about the amount I have to cough up.] Taxes pay for costs incurred for the public good. It pays for an army to protect me. It pays for social security now, and when I am old, others will pay for me. It pays for the roads that I drive on, the water that I drink, and those administrative costs that allow me the home that I live in. They regulate food/water/health standards that allow me to stay healthy. They regulate commerce so that there is less fraud regarding things that I buy, and maintains a standard so that I can be assured of the quality of the goods that I buy. So, no, fear of prison is NOT what keeps me from doing the things I do....but if it does YOU [speaking generally]...and isn't that a character problem? A fear problem? You live in fear, not in love?

I'm not talking here a general paranoia. There's a detectable fear, and there's an undetectable one. For example... "fear of the Lord is the beginning of all wisdom". Do you fear God? If you fear God... does it mean that your life is filled with paranoia? We do certain things and avoid others because of the fear of consequences. As human beings we don't do all things out of love. Fear plays a great deal in our society... Our desire to be safe does have a fear share of fear. All of us to a certain degree fear death whether we like to admit it or not. We fear to be injured and it's a common sense fear that acts subliminally to keep us out of trouble. I think that on top of everything we have society manufactured fears too. If you ever felt "unsafe" in black neighborhoods... this is the fear I'm talking about. I remember as a kid people would drive up to me and ask... What are you doing walking here that late? Don't you know you can get shot? They heard things on the news, they assume that because I'm white and dress "white" that I don't live in that neighborhood. So they feared for my life , while I spent a year in the neighborhood and knew the people who would "shoot me for no reason".

The same with prisons. It's not an in your face fear that you would experience every day, but it does have a major role and it was designed to serve as "public hanging" example of what happens to the people who deviate from the law. We don't always detect it, but it's there playing out it's role.