End this love affair, please.

[Bravus]

It's important to shine Diogenes' lantern in our own faces first of all.

[John317]

Scroll down to 'Kennesaw' in this page, or search for it:

http://www.guninformation.org/

I read the page. I wish it said something about Arizona.

It also doesn't mention anything about the situation in Mexico where there are strict laws against gun ownership but lots of criminals with guns, making the average citizen helpless in the face of the violence. The police not only do not help much but actually contribute to the problem. It would probably do some good if the Mexican government were afraid the people would revolt. However, it knows the masses are unarmed.

[John317]

You won't understand the American psyche regarding guns, as well as many other aspects of the American experience, unless you're nothing but an American, born and bred here and have the blood of generations of Americans coursing through your veins. It's not something you can pick up by logic or reading graphs and analyzing information. That would be like my thinking I'm going to understand Japanese or Chinese or Africans by studying books about them or even by living among them. The fact is that no matter how long I live with them, I would always be an outsider observing them but I wouldn't-- couldn't-- be them, and therefore I can't feel or think like them. I would analyze them and talk about them but I would always do it only as a visitor from another country.

I have spent time among the Navaho and among the Mexican people. I care about them and married one. But I am not Mexican or Navaho, and I will never fully understand them or feel or think as one of them, as much as I try to get inside their skin. That's the same as someone coming here from another country and trying to understand America and Americans. They will always only understand us objectively but never subjectively, as one of us, seeing things with American eyes, thinking with an American mind.

Why do Americans keep guns and feel guns are necessary or important? If you don't feel the answer, you'll never understand it by studying graphs and reports, any more than I will truly understand the Navaho and feel and think like them by reading anthropological studies or even by living among them.

I don't have Navaho eyes.

[Bravus]

Oh, I already know that it's incomprehensible to me.

[Nan]

And I am glad it is not comprehensible to me. Many aspects of America I respect and admire. The gun-wish is not one of them.

[fccool]

Can someone explain why gun crime is so low in western countries that have strict gun control laws?

I don't own a gun, and I don't plan to own one. But I think that every individual who wants to have one should not be prohibited to do so. In Canada the crime rate is much lower and the gun ownership is legal. The crime rate has a little to do with gun ownership. It has to do with a cultural and societal norms. Just watch a week of News and TV shows and you'll see what I'm talking about. Almost every major movie has guns in it. It's like a holy grail of filmmaking today. Even looking at the begginning filmmakers in college... their scripts either deal with coping of a dead girlfriend/boyfriend , or a person with a gun... or both .

Violence is never the way to go, but gun is a signal to the people that consequences would follow if they do contemplate violence. Which house would you rather rob... the one that has "the proun owner of a glock" on the door, or the one that says "Say no to guns"?

Now, to all who argue against the guns in hands of people who are not afraid of death... think about this... we allow people to drive a potential bomb fueled with highly explosive material, and we allow them to do that when they are 16. We consider people responsible enough to drive cars, which in itself is a very complex and dangerous thing... a person can drive into a crowd of people and potentially killing as much with a car. But we are willing to take that risk, because we know that:

1) We should not take all cars away because there are a couple of idiots out there.

2) We need the cars to function as a productive society (or do we?)

Now, let's apply this to guns. The angry people would find other venues to kill people... and these venues can be much more devastating than guns. Look at 9/11... no guns involved. In fact, I would go as far as saying that if people would be allowed some kind of weapon on the plane... 9/11 would not have happened. When a cociety is depended on waiting for police to protect them... it's a sad one, because we are outsourcing our responsibilities as families, friends and neighbours... to the third party.

Of course gun crimes are committed with guns . If you take away a weapon of choice, the criminally minded individual would pick another one. Prohibition never solved anything. It just created underground marked and many of the individuals who had no intentions of committing a crime were locked in jail because now they are automatically criminals. Instead of screaming "take the guns away", we should be asking... What is causing these kids to want to kill another person, or a group people?

[lazarus]

You won't understand the American psyche regarding guns, as well as many other aspects of the American experience, unless you're nothing but an American, born and bred here and have the blood of generations of Americans coursing through your veins.

There are millions of Americans who have similar attitudes to the ones that I have expressed. Are they some how "unamerican"?

"You just don't understand us" isn't a really persuasive argument. I'm surprised you would make it.

Empirical data helps us to make sound decisions. Graphs and charts are important. When thousands of people die every year because of a cultural fetish some objectivity may save some young American lives.

Don't forget the demographic that suffers most from this fatal attraction is young people. Sound familiar?

[Nightingale]

My son is a sheriff deputy and a teaches gun safety to other deputies. He says that in the past whenever a dictator is trying to take over another country one of the first things they do is take away the "right to bear arms." I have not researched this, but I do think that the saying that" when guns are outlawed only the outlaws will have guns" does have some truth to it.

There are many ways to kill. If someone wishes to harm others they will find a way whether they have a gun or not. It would be interesting to know what would happen if it were known that most or all homes had guns.

I certainly agree that violence in TV and movies and games is a major part of the problem with people today. I just dont think that outlawing guns is the way to go. How about outlawing the

portrayal of violence for sport and entertainment.

[olger]

Bravus, you're missing it...man

Just think how a Marlin 336 would look strapped to the side of that motorsickle. No ya got somethin.

By the way, any truth to the rumor that Slim Dusty was friendly to Adventists towards the end. He liked guns too... good man.

olger

[Neil D]

You won't understand the American psyche regarding guns, as well as many other aspects of the American experience, unless you're nothing but an American, born and bred here and have the blood of generations of Americans coursing through your veins.

I have spent time among the Navaho and among the Mexican people. I care about them and married one.

Would you pick up the Louis Amour book over there, John? [he says pointing with his lips].

I am an American....I have also been with the navaho.

The gun thing is well entrenched due to those nice little saying that the gun lobby has put out..."If guns are outlawed....", "The goverment can have my gun when they pry it from my cold dead hands."

I like the rebuttal that Bravus put up on the guns...I had not seen that before....

[David Koot]

"You just don't understand us" isn't a really persuasive argument. I'm surprised you would make it.

Nevertheless, John317 has a point. I understand. In America, owing a gun is tied up with one's manhood. It is the wussies, the women and bleeding-heart liberals who continually squawk about guns. A big part of this is grounded in the culture--'rugged individualism,' the frontier ethic as well as a statement about the nature of government. Those traditions simply are not present in Europe. But the difference may be seen, for example, in how American soldiers took Omaha beach. Brits wouldn't have pulled it off, nor, for that matter, would the Germans had the roles been reversed. It took American inndividualism, initiative and bravery to make it happen.

Dave

[lazarus]

In America, owing a gun is tied up with one's manhood.

[David Koot]

Yeah, I know, you don't understand. That's okay. But those same cultural and character traits are why America won the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, and in particular World War II. And, why America is the most powerful nation on earth today.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: lazarus

"You just don't understand us" isn't a really persuasive argument. I'm surprised you would make it.

Nevertheless, John317 has a point. I understand. In America, owing a gun is tied up with one's manhood.

[Neil D]

Thought this TIC would be something to ease some of the seriousness here...

Statistics are used to tell us about all the things in our lives that threaten us; pollutants, tobacco, gas-guzzling cars and SUVs, ad nauseum. "Numbers don't lie," we're told. Here are some stats they forgot to include…

A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000;

Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000;

C) Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171.

-Statistics courtesy U.S. Dept of Health & Human Services.

Now think about this: Guns:

A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000; (Yes, that's 80 million.);

The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups, is 1,500;

C! ) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .000188

- Statistics courtesy of FBI

So, statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

Remember, "Guns don't kill people, doctors do."

FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR.

Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors before this gets completely out of hand!!!!!

Out of concern for the public at large; I have withheld the statistics on lawyers for fear the shock would cause people to panic and seek medical attention.

[Woody]

Thanks Neil. I enjoyed that. It was good for several laughs. And that IS why I come to CA.

[David Koot]

Ignoring the chatter from the cheap seats, and getting back to Laz's puzzlement . . .

It's a rite of passage. Dad teaches his son how to shoot, the responsible use of a firearm, and to take care of it. It could be a saddle gun, or something like it that is all-around useful. When dad feels the boy is old enough and will be responsible, the gun becomes his. It is a HUGE day in the life of that young man. Now, he is no longer a boy, but a man.

[Woody]

Quote:

Ignoring the chatter from the cheap seats

Hey ... I may be cheap ... but I ain't an ol'Koot.

[Bravus]

Everything has costs and benefits. I may be an old bleeding-heart liberal now, but I was also a country boy. I have owned and fired rifles and shotguns. I get the appeal, I really do. I understand the benefits you guys are describing. But at what cost? For me, it doesn't balance up on the positive side of the ledger.

[David Koot]

Hey ... I may be cheap ... but I ain't an ol'Koot.

To be admitted to that exclusive circle is a greater challenge than receiving the Redwood Award.

[Woody]

The Redwood Award can not be bought or sold or even challenged.

It is the ultimate recognition here on CA.

[David Koot]

I have owned and fired rifles and shotguns. I get the appeal, I really do.

Rifles and shotguns? Okay. I used to one-hand a 12-gauge. My two faves were a cal. .44 magnum revolver with an 8-3/8 inch barrel, and a Colt Commander cal. .45 ACP semi-automatic. I could get off 5 shots a second with the .45. With a Smith & Wesson K-38, my draw time was 1/10 of a second. But like Neil said, I, too, came way too close. Only God's grace and miraculous intervention prevented me from doing something which I would have forever regretted. So I sold my firearms. The only thing I have now is a beautiful Swiss military surplus bolt-action rifle. The machining is absolutely superb. But it stays in storage. It just looks So-o-o purty!

Dave

[Bravus]

I've fired 12 guages, but since I wasn't compensating for anything the main rifle I owned was a nice .22 Ruger semi-auto. I handed it in to a police station in the big gun buyback program after the Port Arthur Massacre in Tasmania.

[lazarus]

Yeah, I know, you don't understand. That's okay. But those same cultural and character traits are why America won the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, and in particular World War II. And, why America is the most powerful nation on earth today.

I do understand what you're saying but I think there's a need to look at what all this macho gun toting is doing to innocent Americans.

Congratulations on winning the Revolutionary war but as I recall a number other countries were successful in winning their freedom from the British empire. Didn't the French also play a significant role too! In fact the Treaty of PARIS officially ended the war. You might want to give a nod to Spain and the Dutch too!

I'm pleased to understand that the Americans won the CIVIL war. Isn't that like beating yourself at poker?

American won WWII! This is the World Series baseball mentality again.

Why is America the most powerful nation on earth today? That would make an interesting thread.

[David Koot]

since I wasn't compensating for anything

Ahh, sounds like a liberal's response--and potentially a negative judgment of motives. Owning and using guns does not mean that someone is 'compensating' for anything, or that the owner is a rabid right-winger. It is part of the American way. Government OF the people, BY the people, FOR the people. That is something which so many millions in other countries long for. Here, it is a reality. No Leviathan here--although Billary may have tried. Who knows what will happen if the Billary gets into office! Hopefully, the American people will set limits--thus far, and no farther.

Dave