Time problem

[fccool]

As I was typing a response to Redwood's question about time zones... I realized something. I know that this probably should be somewhere in the "questions to ask God" section... But the problem comes with the international time zones and our measurements of them. The last I remember that Greenwich time is a British creation from 1500th century. So, if we keep the Sabbath based on these time zones we run into a little problem. I remember a story from a book that my mom gave me about the timezones and "time travel". It was pretty interesting. Basically people lived not too far from each other, but there was a whole day separating them. So, by traveling not too far eastwards or westwards they would gain or loose a day. So we have a situation where eventually two people could be facing each other and one would be observing Saturday and the other would be observing Sunday... all in the same day at the same time under the same sunrise and sunset. How can that be? Isn't the dateline man made?

[Woody]

Hey ... nice twist on things ... not that I think it matters. The sunset or sunrise is the guide.

[fccool]

I don't think you get the point... Both people would be experiencing THE SAME sunrise and sunset, yet one would be living one day prior of another... at the same time in nearly same place.

[jasd]

I've sometimes wondered about the text (alluded-to in the other thread, as I recall); that is,

as re "times and laws".

If I remember, the text addresses more specifically:

"he shall think to change times and laws" - emphasis on...

'shall think to'.

As charges currently apply, that is, to the bogeyman of Rome..., could not the case be made that 'Rome' has effectively changed times and laws, already? and not simply thought about it?

I suggest that the text applies to a different 'times and laws' wherein "times and laws" are, indeed, manipulated; that is, as it applies to space/time.

It appears that, in fact, space/time is currently being consciously impacted by man.

(have I wandered...?)

[Bravus]

We live in the future, of course.

There's no other realistic alternative to having an international date line... unless we prefer to have universal time all around the world, but that would mean our midnight would be at noon and vice versa, which would be confusing.

I think Jesus may have said something about gnats and camels that might be useful in thinking about this discussion...

[fccool]

You too are missing a point too . To amplify my point to make it clear... Two people standing face to face. International Date Line, which was created by men, is separating them. One is experiencing Sabbath, the other is experiencing Sunday according to the man made line. Can that be right in God's eyes? If it is, then why can't we just pick any day before or after to worship? Throughout the history different countries shifted in and out of the dateline... Russian and USA buying Alaska for example. These people went from one day to another . Philippines is another such example. I understand this is exaggerated, but this actually happened before. Just a question that I need to look into.

[fccool]

We live in the future, of course.

There's no other realistic alternative to having an international date line... unless we prefer to have universal time all around the world, but that would mean our midnight would be at noon and vice versa, which would be confusing.

I think Jesus may have said something about gnats and camels that might be useful in thinking about this discussion...

I understand the issue of convenience of having the noon to be the 12:00, and day ending at 12:00 too ... I guess just to show that people did not have a Biblical view in mind when creating these lines, but then it would not have made sense in light of the time that we are used to now. I'm not looking strain gnats here. I think this is pretty peculiar question. If Sabbath day is so important to God that an observance of a following day would be considered a Mark of the Beast... then how would you reconcile the scenario of different Sabbaths under the same sun based on man made separation line? Can we trust men... or is it our honest intention that makes it right?

[fccool]

"he shall think to change times and laws" - emphasis on...

'shall think to'.

As charges currently apply, that is, to the bogeyman of Rome..., could not the case be made that 'Rome' has effectively changed times and laws, already? and not simply thought about it?

I suggest that the text applies to a different 'times and laws' wherein "times and laws" are, indeed, manipulated; that is, as it applies to space/time.

It appears that, in fact, space/time is currently being consciously impacted by man.

That's a great point! Although it does state that he will deceive to whole world, and not will seek to deceive the whole world. Time is only a reference point. I don't doubt that Sabbath is the 7th day and that God would like me to observe it. I just find it interesting that such situation comes up as I have not contemplated this to the extend I had.

[Bravus]

Yeah, but my point was 'what's the alternative?' It's a conundrum all right, but is there anything realistically that can be done about it? The Date Line was put way out in the middle of the Pacific so that it would effect as few people as possible, but it has to be somewhere. Or do you have an alternative system in mind?

FWIW I believe God is much more concerned about the '1 day in 7' facet of the Sabbath than the name of the day, but the issue with the change to Sunday is that there is (apparently) a fairly specific claim that it is a memorial to man's power over God's, and that's why it's such a big issue. But if each person is worshipping on the 7th day, which we call Saturday in English, the fact that a neighbour is living through a different day is pretty much irrelevant.

I guess someone could, if they so wished, use the Date Line to (a) experience the blessing of 2 Sabbaths in a row or ( skip Sabbath entirely.

My comment about gnats and camels was that this seems to me to be exactly the kind of 'tithing the herbs and neglecting the weightier matters of the law - justice and mercy' that Jesus was talking about. Over thirty thousand children will die of starvation today... I just can't get that exercised about someone looking across the border into Sunday.

[fccool]

My comment about gnats and camels was that this seems to me to be exactly the kind of 'tithing the herbs and neglecting the weightier matters of the law - justice and mercy' that Jesus was talking about. Over thirty thousand children will die of starvation today... I just can't get that exercised about someone looking across the border into Sunday.

I'm not looking for you to be excited or to agree with me . I'm asking an honest question and I'd like to hear your opinion. As far as 30k starving children in the world... 1 ounce of shiny metal would feed 4 of these for a year in some places. How messed up is that?

[melvin mccarty]

I have found that no one will look seriously at the dateline problem. Of course the date line should be at the point where creation started. Then each suceeding day would start at the right place. In my experience no one is willing to concede that it just might be important. As I see it it is rather foolish to make a fuss about the day at all if we pay no attention to the fact that probably half the people on the globe could be keeping the wrong day.

mel