ATTN: brothers & sisters.........

[AlanOfPC]

I'm pretty sure this topic has been kicked around here before but I'm relatively new to this forum. Seems like when I try to find a website that teaches the truth, more often than not, I'm gonna run up against a horde of slanderous, scathing, venomous attacks against the faith. I never realized how horrible things are out there on the WWW until now that I've reentered the church. Now, the reason I even bring this up is because these are the kind of places that, after we go door to door or after an evangelistic crusade, people will search the SDA name and come across links such as the one provided in this post. By all means don't click on it if you don't want your feelings "stirred". It is a vicious peice of anti-Adventism and I feel like we ought know what kinds of things we're dealing with when we're out there witnessing and trying to save souls for Christ. This is a heavy burden on my heart and I feel God has moved me to speak to you all on this matter and I want us to pray for the people who found it necessary to run the good name of the church, that has always stood for high standard christian living, through the mud. We should be doing all we can to get the gospel out there on the WWW to rebut the accusers or they will hold the advantage on this fertile witnessing landscape. Thanks everyone and have a blessed Sabbath.

Sabbath keepers refuted

[Woody]

Alan ... I clicked on your link. But I don't see this as a serioius threat to any God fearing or God seeking person. The message of the gospel is simple. Even a child can understand it. If someone is seeking God ... they will find him. The Holy Spirit is far more powerful than any link like this one.

Personally, I don't find myself "stirred" at all by this link. For My God is far more powerful.

[Neil D]

I have noticed that I am beginging to cringe whenever someone uses the words "brothers and sisters" in thier posts.....So, I guess right off, I am leery of the post....

And yet, I can empathise with the scared feeling and revulsion when someone is pleading that we need to rebutt sites like the above posted anti-Adventist site.

But why be on the WWW out to defeat the arguements of anti-SDA? I think that we can both agree that these anti-SDA sites probably have arguements from the devil himself. Which means that there is truth admid the false in there as well. And I have been around long enough to know, the devil is much smarter than I am....So, the logic begs the question, "Why am I on the devil's ground, argueing with him?"....There's a better way....

And if you'all don't know it, then what are you doing here on this board searching? I would suggest that a good Sabbath afternoon activity is talking to God and asking him for a better way.....

[David Koot]

Mr. Alanofpc:

I, also, took a look at your link. I would be surprised if many would take it seriously. Anyone who would do so, need only check out the references. They are not there. There is no Scriptural support for what they say. Nor do they accurately cite denominational positions or history. It is a 'hate' site, in the same category as the Nazi propaganda against various countries and groups. This one would do Goebbels proud. Sensible people will discount it. Party stalwarts wouldn't care--they will believe what they want to believe anyway.

Dave

[AlanOfPC]

It appears I've lready done the one thing I least wanted to do and that was offend with my topic. I sincerely apologise for doing so. My intent was making people aware of some of the online obsticles we face while trying to witness. Like it or not, people are seeing this kind of hate speech. I personally like to be prepared to face any argument thrown my way so I can respond effectively. Please understand that I don't "live" on these type of horrid sites but every great now and then I have checked to see the different sites that are pro & con not to test our doctrine whatsoever but to be aware. I will bring this up no more if you wish.

[David Koot]

You certainly haven't offended me. Its simply that the site you referenced is not credible. They cite Acts 20 and Corinthians 16. That's it. Those two references are SO clear, as to give no cause for confusion to serious students of the Word. Perhaps I will start a thread which deals with those two passages.

Dave

[David Koot]

(Oops. Hit wrong button!)

[Woody]

Quote:

It appears I've lready done the one thing I least wanted to do and that was offend with my topic.

I don't see anyone here offended with you .. unless you consider someone offended if they disagree with your view.

[John317]

I'm pretty sure this topic has been kicked around here before but I'm relatively new to this forum. Seems like when I try to find a website that teaches the truth, more often than not, I'm gonna run up against a horde of slanderous, scathing, venomous attacks against the faith. I never realized how horrible things are out there on the WWW until now that I've reentered the church. Now, the reason I even bring this up is because these are the kind of places that, after we go door to door or after an evangelistic crusade, people will search the SDA name and come across links such as the one provided in this post...

Please check out this link. They have very good, interesting discussions. I doubt you find the above negative description on this site:

http://www.revivalsermons.org/forums/index.php

[John317]

I have noticed that I am beginging to cringe whenever someone uses the words "brothers and sisters" in thier posts.....So, I guess right off, I am leery of the post....

This is very unfortunate, I think. I wish we sincerely used that language again like we used to in our church. I think one reason we have gotten away from it is that we no longer feel that closeness of love as between brothers and sisters in Christ any more. It doesn't come spontaneously.

I was fairly close to a congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses for about a year, and I felt really a closeness with them that I seldom feel with my own fellow SDAs. I miss that aspect of what they have in their organization. I think maybe one reason we don't have it is due to the fact that we have so much disharmony and doctrinal disagreement among us. AlanOfPC sort of touched on this. When we go out into our neighborhoods and give Bible studies, we have to realize now that people we are studying with are likely going to be immediately faced with all kinds of false teachings, not only from SDAs but from former-SDAs. It's astonishing to me. I never realized things were like this on the basis of my own personal experience in church. I only became aware of the extent of the divide among us when I started using the computer. I hope it is not typical of our church as a whole.

Why can't we spontaneously address a fellow SDA as "brother" and "sister" any more without someone feeling that it's somehow not genuine, etc., as Neil.D expressed it? Does it say anything about where we are as a church today?

[Woody]

I am with you John. I like the idea of calling each other 'brother and sister'.

However ... it is not in the cultural experience now as I wish it would be. I will defend Neil's concern here. Because the way our culture is now ... the majority of those who use the terms 'brother and sister' ... are extremists. Well ... that has been my personal experience and that is why I suspect Neil had this concern.

I would love to be able to return to the use of this term ... but it will take a change in culture.

[John317]

Yes, I agree with all you said here. Something to think about seriously and aim for.

[Woody]

I think we can slowly try to make a change individually. We can try to carefully use the terms with those who know us and those we know. I think it is more difficult to do it to those we don't know. They may wonder about you.

[Nan]

I wonder if the current tendency to use first names rather than titles has decreased the use of brethren and sistren in the church. In a time when neighbours spoke of each other as Mrs Smith and Mrs Jones, to use Sister Jones and Sister Smith in the church was obviously more friendly. Now in the church where I have my membership, the minister is often referred to from the pulpit by his first name, virtually everyone else is always referred to by their first names and I cannot remember when I last heard Brother X or Sister Y in that particular church. I occasionally here the terms used in what I would characterise as more conservative churches.

I do not see that as right or wrong, just a changing of the times.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

I have noticed that I am beginging to cringe whenever someone uses the words "brothers and sisters" in thier posts.....So, I guess right off, I am leery of the post....

[snip]

Why can't we spontaneously address a fellow SDA as "brother" and "sister" any more without someone feeling that it's somehow not genuine, etc., as Neil.D expressed it? Does it say anything about where we are as a church today?

First off, I don't want to be misunderstood...in that ***I*** was the one who was leery, not anyone else. I was not speaking for the church, but rather speaking for myself. The reason for my leery-ness is due to the extreme people that Ihave dealt with, who with thier brand of "brother and cistern [the plueral of sisters in the 3rd person] have left me with indelable psychological markings upon my person that would make me absolutely wild/crazy [while an understatement in it's description, picture the loud vocalization of a moan undulted with many alternating high and low pitch wails]... Since then, I have learned to temper my reaction to just leery-ness due to the fact that I have actually met some people who were actually NICE people to meet, but who also used the term "brother and sisters So&So"...So, when I say that I am leery, it is actually a compliment compared to previous reactions...

Regardless of my ..um.. overreactions to those experiences, I am quite aware that there are Adventist people who feel like running from the room when someone addresses them as "Brother" or "Sister"... A simple "ya'll" would be quite harmless and yet would introduce one's self to the community as friendly...Familiarity, in my opinion, would never be achieved unless one actually MET someone in reality...Here, this is the cyber/virtual world, we really don't know anyone...Now, there are many here that I believe that I actually know, without actually have met them...but it does take some actual interaction with them....

[Stan]

"Brother" and "Sisters" as a title of fellow believers, has been a gift to us, as a Christian Tradition by the Church of Rome..

It is hard to find "tell brother Peter" or similar phrases in the NT.

Those who do the will of the Father, are our Brothers and Sisters... using that as a title to chat with each other, has been a gift to us from the Catholic Church.

[Woody]

You's my brother ....

[Woody]

I would like to note that I have some friends so close here ... that I call them my adopted brother or sister. Now that is special. And I consider Neil one of those. He is Cool Man.

[John317]

I hear and understand what your are saying here.

It's a cultural thing no doubt, as Redwood mentioned. But I've seen it used in today's culture too, so it might be something in the current Adventist subculture rather than in the American culture itself.

Just the simple fact that people call each other "brother" or "sister" is not itself necessarily a sign of love or affection, of course. It can be a formality merely. I was once in a political organization where it was common to refer to each other as "comrade" but I observed it had nothing to do with feelings of love or kindness. Language like that has to come from the heart and be spontaneous, yet at the same time, we shouldn't have to be afraid that such words will cause people to view us as weird or fanatical.

[Gerr]

I am more leery about wolves in sheep's clothing, potions labeled as "Good News" but are really poisons, and 5th columnists.

Gerry

[John317]

I read a quote from Ellen White this morning that really made me stop and think. She wrote that as we draw close to the time just before Christ returns, the only way we will be able to distinguish between truth and error will be through the Holy Spirit.

[Neil D]

Quote:

Language like that has to come from the heart and be spontaneous, yet at the same time, we shouldn't have to be afraid that such words will cause people to view us as weird or fanatical.

I agree that language should come from the heart. And I know where EGW address the idea that we should call each other as "brother" and 'sister" so&so [contrary to Stan's insistance that it come from the Catholic church]...And I believe that when EGW asked us to do that, it was to draw us closer...Unfortunately, those of us who were pschologically abused by those who used those endearing terms, were messed up to the point that we can no longer hear them without becoming a bit cautious in out dealing with those type of ...um...brothern...

My making comment about being leery did not label those people as fanatical,.. nor weird,.. nor extreem...Rather, it was a comment that conveyed that if they wanted to be friends with me, to be a bit sensitive/cautious with those terms around me as I have not had good expereinces with that type of familiarity. If anything, it labeled me as broken and needing to be fixed...."Use me with caution" would be the sign that would be placed on my head...

And what ever you do, do not replace that sign for the one that says "Dummy..Do not use for intellegent work." Although, in my case, that one may apply also... :x

[John317]

"Brother" and "Sisters" as a title of fellow believers, has been a gift to us, as a Christian Tradition by the Church of Rome..

It is hard to find "tell brother Peter" or similar phrases in the NT.

Those who do the will of the Father, are our Brothers and Sisters... using that as a title to chat with each other, has been a gift to us from the Catholic Church.

Yes, in the Catholic church, they only refer to the Religious as "brother." They don't generally refer to laity by that name. So it is similar to calling someone "Father" in that way.

In the NT, however, "brother" and "sister" are used to refer to any fellow believers in Christ.

A few examples:

The letter from the Jerusalem conference in Acts 15: 23-- "From.... your brothers to the brothers among the gentiles...." 1 Corinthians was written from "our brother Sosthenes." Romans 16: 1 refers to "our sister Phoebe." Verse 17 of the same chapter says, "I implore you, brothers...." 1 Cor. 10: 1 says, "Now I want you to know, brothers...." 1 Thess. 5: 12, 25-27 -- "Now we ask you, brothers.... Brothers, pray for us all. Greet all the brothers with a holy kiss. I charge you by the Lord that this letter be read to all the brothers."

[Stan]

When some one calls me at the office... and starts with Brother Jensen... it usually follows with "I have a concern......

[Neil D]

When some one calls me at the office... and starts with Brother Jensen... it usually follows with "I have a concern......

Mr Jensen....

I have a concern.......

You know, that doesn't endear oneself that way either....