Revolution in the Church

[Stan]

The North American Growth rate is almost zero overall. If we keep on doing the same, we will get the same results.

Do we need a REVOLUTION? How would you see this? AND please leave doctrinal things out-of-this...

I personally would like to see more conferences geared to reach various groups.

I for example, believe, that one of our fastest growing groups where I live are reaching those who come from the Philippine Islands. If they had their own conference I do believe they would also get more funding and continue their growth at an even higher rate. I know that it will cause complications, but it is less complications than a zero growth.

[David Koot]

"Christ's method alone will give true success in reaching the people." And yes, it really works. Does it ever! A revolution in how we reach people, perhaps that is what is needed. 'Think outside the box.' Find as much common ground with people as possible, treat them as equals, appreciate what they have to offer, let them know how valuable they are, minister to their needs and interests, believe in them--and point them to Jesus. That is working in city evangelism here, and it is exciting to watch!

Dave

[fccool]

It really hit me over the head yesterday, and it kind of goes along the lines with what you are saying. We've had a couple in church that invited I and my fiance for dinner. The dinner conversation was kind of awkward, as we kind of walking into the walls trying to act "adventist". Then the couple asked us if we will have a Bride-Groom dance (we are getting married soon). And we said that we would not, because we can not dance, and the bride's parents are very conservative and probably would not like that.

Well, to our surprise, my future mother in law slipped a couple of words that she would love to see us waltz. The couple knew how to dance as the girl was a ball room dance teacher. They started dancing, and they danced very beautifully and gracefully for about an hour. It kind of got me thinking... why did I have prejudice in such a beautiful form of expression? It was awesome! So we agreed to take some lessons. And we will be waltzing at our wedding .

But we feel a lot less tense with the couple as we can be human adventist, and not try to be "adventist"... I hope you know what I mean by it... trying too hard, and living up to the prejudices of old. This couple really showed us that there is nothing wrong with dancing, and you can do it better and make it very beautiful thing to look at . This is what it means being a Christian... we can do things that the world does, but in a better form of it. The way it was originally meant to be.

Unsaved and saved may drink juice from the grapes... but we drink it fresh. It's much better way to go.

Many times I feel like we pretend to be a better version of ourselves and end up with an ugly caricature of adventist instead of slowly learning our way up to the real thing. And people can see through that. That's where you get this gap between how people act in churches, and the way they act when no-one sees them.

I agree with Dave, that we need to respect people where they are, and if they decide to let God change them, then it's awesome! If not, then we should respect that too.

[Woody]

Quote:

Do we need a REVOLUTION?

Russell Burrill tried to write out some ideas ... I would recommend his book on the subject. However ... it got him nearly killed by an attacker.

[Naomi]

The North American Growth rate is almost zero overall. If we keep on doing the same, we will get the same results.

Isn't that the definition of insanity?

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

Do we need a REVOLUTION? How would you see this?

Stan, I certainly agree that there needs to be a revolution. There are so many directions in which we could go, and all would be effective if we, as individuals and congregations would follow through. We began hot (including myself) and after a few discouraging attempts shrug our shoulders and return to our private lives.

I have no answers, but I do believe it has to began with evangelism of many types in our local churches. We can do lots of mission trips (which I dearly love to do) but if we fail to kindle the home-fires the work will never be finished. Hometown NA is the biggest Mission Field in the world; in our homes, offices, and down our street.

[Woody]

Quote:

Do we need a REVOLUTION? How would you see this?

Quote:

LOVE WON ANOTHER

This was Christ's method and I think it is the best method.

[Gerr]

"Christ's method alone will give true success in reaching the people." And yes, it really works. Does it ever! A revolution in how we reach people, perhaps that is what is needed. 'Think outside the box.' Find as much common ground with people as possible, treat them as equals, appreciate what they have to offer, let them know how valuable they are, minister to their needs and interests, believe in them--and point them to Jesus. That is working in city evangelism here, and it is exciting to watch!

Dave

I am distressed by this zero growth in the USA. Is it the same in Canada Stan?

It would be good to discuss Christ's methods in very practical terms.

Gerry

[Stan]

I just wanted to say...

How is what you are doing/promoting working out?

PLEASE this is NOT directed at any poster..

[lazarus]

Our conference is using the ideas of Paul Borden, a Baptist, to tackle these issues: Here's an article from his site.

http://www.growinghealthychurches.org/art/art_388.shtml

Congregations constantly make choices. Those choices determine the behaviors of the congregation. Congregations grow, decline, serve outward, focus inward, reproduce or grow by addition based upon the choices that are made.

This means that small, declining, and ineffectual congregations can choose to grow. Most, sad to say, are unwilling to make that choice because they choose to avoid the implications of such a choice. However, all congregations can decide to grow or remain small. There is a choice between death and life for most congregations.

Usually the smaller congregations that decide to grow (and again it is a decision) never make that decision until their lack of growth threatens their very existence. The good news is that we have seen many such congregations make the turnaround from death to life. When congregations make that decision it means they then decide to entrust their care to an outside group that knows how to help them. Growing Healthy Churches knows how to help a congregation transform and begin again to grow.

[Gerr]

I just wanted to say...

How is what you are doing/promoting working out?

PLEASE this is NOT directed at any poster..

As a fisher of men - a total failure. I have been earnestly praying lately for God to qualify me as such. I'm sick and tired of the same zero results! That is why I am very interested in th topic of this thread.

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

As a fisher of men - a total failure. I have been earnestly praying lately for God to qualify me as such.

I somehow doubt this to be true. For by their fruits you will know them. As a Christian ... I am sure your fruits are seen. The results may not be seen though. I am confident that you ARE a fisher of men. But we as humans like to see the results. However ... the results are for God and not for us to always see. I think the reason is that if we saw them we might claim some of the glory.

[Naomi]

I just wanted to say...

How is what you are doing/promoting working out?

I must agree with Gerry, on the surface a total failure. However, we are only charged with planting the seeds. We will not know until Heaven what the final harvest will produce.

[Bravus]

(temporary uncloak because this is so important)

Just a quick rundown of our experience: not meant to be anything more than just anecdotal evidence.

When we moved to Brisbane we went to three SDA churches. In each we were greeted at the door by a kind elderly saint who was pleasant and friendly but did little more than say 'Good morning' and give us the bulletin. Then we went into church alone, sat alone, left alone... and didn't go back.

Contrast that with our experience last week at Kenmore Baptist Church. We were greeted by a greeter who knew the congregation well enough to know we were new. He called a pastor over to greet us and find us a seat. After church the lady sitting in front of us chatted animatedly with us, then another pastor came over and introduced himself, and took us to a welcome lunch for new attenders. Several members introduced themselves to us, including a young person who chatted to our daughter, and we had a very pleasant lunch. The senior pastor then gave a short introduction to the church and its mission and invited all the new attenders to come back. They also got us to fill out a contact form with our addresses. During the week Sue and I got a welcome letter, which was a form letter but had a personal message from one of the people we'd met at the lunch. Our daughters each got a personal letter from the youth pastor inviting them to join the youth program, and we got a phone call.

The moral of the story is that welcoming new people can be planned and organised and intentional and still feel warm and human and welcoming. Oh yeah, this church has 2000 members and is growing rapidly.

(recloak)

[John317]

Do you recall any of the main ideas that Burrill wrote about?

I do remember that shocking attack. I never did find out what that was all about.

[aldona]

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

I just wanted to say...

How is what you are doing/promoting working out?

PLEASE this is NOT directed at any poster..

As a fisher of men - a total failure. I have been earnestly praying lately for God to qualify me as such. I'm sick and tired of the same zero results! That is why I am very interested in th topic of this thread.

Gerry

When we look at numbers (such as numbers of people baptized, or even numbers of people introduced to the church) it is very easy to be discouraged.

But how do you know that you have not influenced people in other ways? You will not know until you get to heaven and people walk up to you and shake your hand and say "remember that time when you................... - well, because of you I'm here today!"

Let's not forget that we are to be like salt - and the salt will always be a small minority compared to the volume of food that we are salting. And the rest of the food does not have to change into salt until the whole dish contains nothing but salt.

Too much salt just leads to high blood pressure.

aldona

[Gerr]

Thanks for the encouragement!

Gerry

[Jeannieb43]

Too much salt just leads to high blood pressure.

aldona

Fabulous!

Thanks, Aldona.

[LifeHiscost]

Hometown NA is the biggest Mission Field in the world; in our homes, offices, and down our street.

From what I see on Hope, 3ABN, and others, most of the onfire individuals in America are going overseas where people often are willing to put up with various inconveniences, some highly dangerous, when they hear what Jesus is willing to do for them.

I'm afraid America, in general, finds it more important to prepare to live comfortably here on this earth. It's the plague of the rich.

"Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.

And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:21-23 NASB

We also support a friend who has accepted mission work in Ireland where the acceptance of the gospel is also, as in the U. S., very difficult to give to others, unlike in, I believe it's Peru, where 500,000 were baptized in one day, a month or so ago.

Regards!

[LynnDel]

As to the original question, I think that the church needs to take a serious look at the multiple layers in the conference structure, take one or two levels out, and allow the local congregation more autonomy in the decision making process and use of local funds for local evangelism.

[darlene]

One of the main problems in our church is in the Sabbath School. We often do not have Sabbath School class leaders who are responsible for love and caring for members. People come to the Sabbath School class where the teacher stands up and says...."our lesson study this week was about..." and then goes directly into the Bible lesson study. The Fellowship objective of the Sabbath School is left out. If I/we know people truly love and care about me as a person, I will be there. The Sabbath School class is where we learn to love and care for one another just as Jesus loves and cares for us. It is a place where needs are met, where we reach out to others. The SS Class leader must have a special gift to guide us in showing God's love to one another and then reach out to those in the community around us.

No, our church does not need revolution....our Sabbath School classes need revolution.

[nuff sed]

Sometime you need to come to Forest Lake Church and attend the Bridge Builders class. The first 10-15 minutes the 35-50 members pass the Happy Dollar hat and each one tells what has been happening in his life since the last Sabbath. You are not obligated to put in a Happy Dollar but a great deal of money has been raised for various and sundry projects as a result.If there are special prayer requests we pray for each other at that time also. Members receive an email on Friday night from the class leader mentioning projects, information the class should be aware of, who is teaching the class, who is sick and needs prayer, etc. A printed bulletin of the same information is also provided for those who are not computer literate.

[fccool]

LynnDel and Darlene,

Both of you could not be more on target. When I attended Baptist church way back when, I enjoyed Sunday schools because these were time for fellowships and sharing thoughts and concerns and it was highly involved. These were also split by the interest groups, so people of the similar interests would share experiences, and the lessons were built around those interests so these were highly relevant. No to say that Sabbath school lessons are irrelevant, but they take universal approach that does not appeal to me as a younger person. I think this is partly why young people do not participate in Sabbath schools and eventually give up all together. The material that is covered in the lessons is very repetitive, and very broad, and way to methodical for younger generation who likes to be more spontaneous. I think that interest based groups would get more participation from members, and will revive the Sabbath school attendance. Currently, probably around 10% of our church members are attending Sabbath school. We should be asking ourselves why. Perhaps people are "Godless" or perhaps the things could be better.

The churches are definetly putting their financial eggs in the conference basket, and it can be detrimental at times. I think that every local church should utilize mass communication technologies such as Internet, Video, DVD and etc... but these do cost some money. One of the reasons that the "seeker churches" ,such as Harvest in Chicago, have been successful in bringing in people is their use of technology. A professional grade camera costs next to nothing today. For example, the conference paid more than 20k to do a evangelism series here last year with guest speaker. We've had number of the people come, which naturally and progressively decreased. Eventually only two people joined. Which is awesome, and praise God for that couple, because they are very active. But we could have done a series of DVDs and could hand these out to far greater number of people and do it on continual bases, thus reaching a far greater amount of people. More people are willing to pop a DVD in than to drive 5 miles every day of the week after work.

We just need to improvise and utilize the technology to break those time/inconvenience barriers. And these do cost money, and more money should be allocated.

[fccool]

That goes without saying IMO. But it is hard for me to tell today between a charitable and "good" person and a Christian. Two are indistinguishable without the message at times. I work with the one of the best human beings on this planet . He would give his shirt if you asked him to, he fixes people's cars for free as a hobby. Participates in numerous charitable activities. He is compassionate, loving, humble, a bit shy, and an atheist. This guy is better "Christian" than many Christians I know. In that sense, supposed life style evangelism is a myth. It is not as effective as direct communication. Of course, direct communication would be much more effective if it is backed up by an appropriate life style. But this will not always be the case as we do have our ups and downs as human beings.

Methodology of disciples was abandoning everything... their possessions, their jobs, and their families and at times health to go proclaim, which involved speaking uninvited in front of large crowds. They hardly had a place they called home, and all of them were killed because of what they did. Any volunteers? I think if there was TV/Internet and Radio back then (or even printing press)... their strategy would be different and would take advantage of the media. I hardly doubt that they would be building 3ABN type of channel. I think 3ABN is awesome, but it ends up preaching to the choir instead of spreading the message in most cases.

[Stan]

My Opinion...

Changing Leadership Structure is not going to help.

Not measuring is not going to help.

Each member taking ownership for their Christian responsibility to take the Gospel to their neighbourhood.

BUT THE KEY IS THIS..

In order to share, we have to have something worth to share.

[Woody]

Quote:

I think 3ABN is awesome, but it ends up preaching to the choir instead of spreading the message in most cases.

Very True. But things like 3ABN are very impersonal. And we in our daily lives can be the most powerful witness. I've found that one of the best ways to witness is to PRAY. YES ... PRAY. And I don't mean to pray in your closet. I mean to do as Neil has shared about praying with his patients. All humans have needs. And if you offer to quickly send up a short prayer for people on a casual basis ... they will usually jump at the offer and appreciate it. And guess who they will come to when they REALLY need prayer and help.