God's forgiveness vs Man's forgiveness

[Stan]

"man" is used in the Generic term.

What do we do to deserve/acquire each and how do they differ?

Can we get 'it' if we continue to need it? ie no repentance?

[Tom Wetmore]

Forgiveness is not an accounting credit entry that requires an equal debit of repentance to balance our account on the books of heaven.

Forgiveness operates independently of the reaction or actions of the forgiven. God's forgiveness preexists our sin and any puny repentance we may offer up to express our desire to turn from our sin and be saved.

Unfortunately, the fallacy that repentance must always be the precondition to God's forgiveness leads many people to not forgive their fellow humans that do not first show repentance or express an apology. The stalemates of such fractured relationships often go unrepaired into subsequent generations visiting the sins of the fathers unto the third and forth generations and beyond.

Let an attitude of forgiveness permeate all things...

because forgiveness is always good news... And that's the Gospel Truth!

Tom

[John317]

... God's forgiveness preexists our sin and any puny repentance we may offer up to express our desire to turn from our sin and be saved.

Unfortunately, the fallacy that repentance must always be the precondition to God's forgiveness leads many people to not forgive their fellow humans that do not first show repentance or express an apology...

While I completely agree with you that it is best for humans to forgive even before anyone asks us to forgive them, and while it is true that God gave His Son to the world before anyone ever asked for forgiveness-- yet, nevertheless, the Bible teaches that in order for God's forgiveness to be effective in saving us in His eternal kingdom, sinners must come to the point of repentance for our sins, confession, and forsaking them. Repentance is not a precondition to God's love, but it certainly is to God's forgiveness. It is God's love that is unconditional, but not his forgiveness. There are conditions for forgiveness and salvation. That is all through the Bible. The only way we can say otherwise is to reject the plain teachings of Scripture. It is taught clearly from Genesis to Revelation. Jesus Himself taught it.

God told Solomon, in 2 Chron. 7: 14, "If My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, THEN I will hear from heaven, and will FORGIVE their sin and heal their land."

[Kevin H]

This may take some Bible study to make sense, althought we will all be overwhelmed at the impossibility of the task, but Jesus commands us to do a better job of forgiving than God does. Jesus said that when it comes to forgiveness we need to out-do God.

[John317]

Yes, and there are very good, sensible, even practical, reasons for this.

We sinners need to forgive everyone regardless of whether they ask for forgiveness because if we don't forgive, and if instead we hold grudges against those who hurt us, our hatreds and resentments will hurt us and keep us from experiencing healing and freedom. We would be letting people and things we can't control, keep us from being free.

From God's viewpoint, there is the fact that it would be harmful to us for God to offer forgiveness to sinners before they even admit that they are sinful or in the wrong. That would leave us in the desperate situation of never being healed spiritually. A person who does not know he is sick cannot very well be healed of his sickness. He will go on thinking he is fine until he drops dead.

So, repentance and asking for forgiveness is part of the process of proper diagnosis with a view toward getting over our illness of sin.

[Stan]

I do no know about others, but I have a tough time forgiving people who do the same thing over and over to me, and then want forgiveness. Can there really be forgiveness without repentance?

While I type that, I thought of the great forgiver, can we really expect forgiveness from him if there is no cessation of sin? I know the easy answer is yes, ie 70 x 7 etc etc

[Tom Wetmore]

In Jesus' parable of the prodigal son, when did the Father forgive the son?

Jesus supreme act of forgiveness was his death for us. Scripture says that while we were still sinners he died for us - obviously before any repentance or turning from our sin.

Jesus offered forgiveness to the woman caught in adultery and then told her to turn from her sin (repent). She made no move toward it herself before forgiveness happened.

Regularly Jesus healed sinners of their disease by first forgiving their sins. They offered no repentance and a number of times didn't even ask to be healed before Jesus approached them with an offer of healing.

On the cross, Jesus said, "Forgive them because they don't know what they are doing." Obviously no repentance preceded that forgiveness.

Consider that God has the power to punish sinners as an immediate and justified consequence of their sin. His divine forbearance in withholding punishment exhibits his attitude of forgiveness toward sinners. If God did not forgive us first, we would not even have an opportunity to repent.

Lasting repentance is motivated by thankfulness for being forgiven.

Tom

[Kevin H]

In Genesis Cain killed his brother Able. Cain, the homebody's punnishment was to live the life of Able the traveler (If it was visa versa the punishment would have probably been the opposit). Cain was promised that if anyone killed him that God would punnish that person sevenfold, or a perfect, complete and total punishment.

After a while there was a man named "Lamech" who killed someone.

Here there is some ancient poetry pattern that come into play, that our lack of knowlege of the ancient world causes us to not realize the impact of Genesis 4:24.

The early readers would have known the poetry and would have started to recognize the poetry form and could tell what the last line was to be, even without reading it.

The phrase that should be there would have read either the original number plus one or the next number. The text should have gone one of two ways:

"If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seven plus one fold."

or it could have said

"If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech eightfold."

Either one of those line would have fit the poetry, and carried the theological implications of Lamech asking God to protect him as God promised to protect Cain. It would have indicated a trusting in God to help him in this situation

However the early readers/hearers would have taken a double take as the poetry form did not end in the traditional way.

"Mary had a little lamb

Fleece as white as snow

Everywhere that Mary went

the lamb went between two hunks of bread."

Lamech did the same thing changing a common inocent poetry form into a shocking horrible idea

"If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold"

This was more than ruining good poetery. It was a statement that God's perfect vengence is too puney to meet Lamech's thurst for vengence. He is saying that he refuses to trust in God to help him in this situation, because God's perfect vengence is not nearly strong enough to satisfy Lamech. Lamech is saying that his hatred is so deep that it is impossible for even God's perfect vengence to satify his desire for vengence.

Lamech is set up as worst than Cain. Cain accepted his punishment and trusted God for protection. Lamech wanted no punishment and refused God's protection complaining that God's protection would not satify the spirit of hatred and unforgiveness in Lamech's heart. Lamech was a horrible person.

So now we get to Peter's question to Jesus: How often shall I forgive my brother, up to 7 times?

Once again our western mind wants to pull out the calculater and think that Peter is asking if someone asks forgiveness eight times that he has met his requirements.

NO, NO, NO, Peter was not thinking of numbers but quality of forgiveness. Peter was asking "Lord, when we forgive, you want us to forgive perfectly and completely. You want us to forgive the way God forgives us, right?" He wanted to show Jesus that he was paying attention when Jesus said "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debters."

Peter was expecting Jesus to say "Nay, but I say unto you forgive seven plus one times" or else "Nay, but I say unto you forgive eight times." which again would have fit the poetry form and would have indicated that Peter had understood the lesson. When we forgive, we should forgive as completely and as totally and as perfectly as God forgives.

Maybe Peter was hoping to say "God's ways are above our ways, God understands how hurt we might be. God understands if some hurt prevents you from forgiving 7 times. Forgive the best you can and allow God to forgive seven plus one times."

But Jesus went back to Genesis 4:24 for the answer. Jesus is saying that to forgive the way God forgives should not be satifactory to us. God's forgiveness should be too weak to meet our desire for forgiveness. Jesus told Peter "If you forgive people the way God forgives you, you are not doing enought. You need to be so forgiving that God would think that you are being ridiculous." Jesus told Peter that when it comes to forgiveness "You need to outforgive God."

This is quite a topic to think about. Our western mind's Biblical ignorance gave us a bliss that now as we understand the implications of the poetry and the ruin of the poetry made by Lanech and how Jesus applied it to us. This is a baffeling think to think about.

But it shows the importance of forgiveness to Jesus. It was so important to him that he wants our goal to be to be more forgiving than God can be.

[John317]

1 John 1: 9-- If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

Isaiah 55: 7-- Let the wicked forsake his way,

And the unrighteous man his thoughts;

Let him return to the LORD,

And He will have mercy on him;

And to our God,

For He will abundantly pardon.

Jeremiah 36: 3--

It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the adversities which I purpose to bring upon them, that everyone may turn from his evil way, that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.”

2 Chron. 6: 24, 25--“Or if Your people Israel are defeated before an enemy because they have sinned against You, and return and confess Your name, and pray and make supplication before You in this temple, then hear from heaven and forgive the sin of Your people Israel, and bring them back to the land which You gave to them and their fathers."

Steps To Christ:

Some seem to feel that they must be on probation, and must prove to the Lord that they are reformed, before they can claim His blessing. But they may claim the blessing of God even now. They must have His grace, the Spirit of Christ, to help their infirmities, or they cannot resist evil. Jesus loves to have us come to Him just as we are, sinful, helpless, dependent. We may come with all our weakness, our folly, our sinfulness, and fall at His feet in penitence. It is His glory to encircle us in the arms of His love and to bind up our wounds, to cleanse us from all impurity.

Here is where thousands fail; they do not believe that Jesus pardons them personally, individually. They do not take God at His word. It is the privilege of all who comply with the conditions to know for themselves that pardon is freely extended for every sin. Put away the suspicion that God's promises are not meant for you. They are for every repentant transgressor. Strength and grace have been provided through Christ to be brought by ministering angels to every believing soul. None are so sinful that they cannot find strength, purity, and righteousness in Jesus, who died for them. He is waiting to strip them of their garments stained and polluted with sin, and to put upon them the white robes of righteousness; He bids them live and not die.

Matthew 6: 14, 15--

For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Mark 11: 25--And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."

The vast majority of ancient Greek texts, including the Alexandrinus ms., a fifth century codex, also read:

26 But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your sins.

Luke 6 : 37--"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

Luke 11: 4-- Forgive us our sins,

for we also forgive everyone who sins against us.

And lead us not into temptation.' "

Luke 17: 3,4-- "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."

John 20: 23--If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.

Acts 8: 22-- Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord. Perhaps he will forgive you for having such a thought in your heart.

[John317]

In Jesus' parable of the prodigal son, when did the Father forgive the son?

There is no question that God is always READY and WILLING, even ANXIOUS, to forgive sinners. But being ready and wanting to forgive sinners is not the same as forgiving them. There are conditions to God's forgiveness of sinners.

You bring up the prodigal son. According to Luke 15: 18, he was repentant before he saw his father. That is why he was going home. I think it's obvious that the young man's father loved him and was simply glad to see him coming home. His turning back to go home and to his father parallels the sinner's repentance.

Quote:

Jesus supreme act of forgiveness was his death for us. Scripture says that while we were still sinners he died for us - obviously before any repentance or turning from our sin.

Yes, certainly, as I said earlier, Jesus died for us before anyone asked for forgiveness. Again this proves how much God loves us and wants to forgive us and save us in His eternal kingdom. But this does not mean we are actually forgiven at the time he died for us. If all humanity was truly and effectually forgiven thousands of years ago, we could expect that all people will be saved; but we know that the vast majority of mankind will not be saved in God's kingdom. The forgiveness has been available, but we have to accept it in order for that sacrifice of Christ to save us.

Quote:

Jesus offered forgiveness to the woman caught in adultery and then told her to turn from her sin (repent). She made no move toward it herself before forgiveness happened.

Regularly Jesus healed sinners of their disease by first forgiving their sins. They offered no repentance and a number of times didn't even ask to be healed before Jesus approached them with an offer of healing.

We have to remember that the Father revealed to Jesus the thoughts and desires of people.

[Woody]

Quote:

We have to remember that the Father revealed to Jesus the thoughts and desires of people

Would just "thoughts" of repentance without 'acting' be sufficient?

[John317]

Quote:

We have to remember that the Father revealed to Jesus the thoughts and desires of people

Would just "thoughts" of repentance without 'acting' be sufficient?

Yes, I believe the Bible teaches that as far as God is concerned, true thoughts of repentance and sorrow for sin is sufficient, because God knows our hearts and minds. God knows silent prayer as well as he understands prayers said aloud. It's important to remember, though, that if we have true repentance, it will show in our actions and in our actual lives. But God does not need the actions in order to know whether we have faith or repentance. If the life or the actions are not different from what they were before, it simply shows that we don't have true repentance. But our actions are not what bring about God's forgiveness. God literally died in order to forgive us-- our actions and even our faith don't change how he feels toward us-- but faith is like the conduit through which we receive His love, grace, and forgiveness. You might think of God's love and forgiveness as being like a river that can't reach us until we let it. Faith and repentance are like the channel through which the river of God's love and forgiveness pass into our lives. If we refuse it, the love and forgiveness is there, like in a dam, all stopped up. Faith and repentance open the river of God's love and grace and forgiveness and let it all pour in on us.

[John317]

I like your post here on forgiveness, Kevin H. Lots of good insight.

[Stan]

Well, I am glad that God forgives in the manner he does.

When one person does the same thing over and over again to me, and says he is sorry, I would rather he just stop it.

AN example, when i am on first call for security, and one person keeps on setting off the alarm, and then the next day when I tell him that I had to go to the building to check it out, he says he is sorry, I do not want him to be sorry, I want him to STOP. (That is just an example)

Wonder if God feels that way with us??

[John317]

I think you have a great point. There is no question God wants us to stop. That is the whole purpose of the plan of salvation, to make a final end of sin. God's plan will eventually result in people no longer having to confess and say that we're sorry we sinned.

[cricket]

I really think that even beyond that, God doesn't just want us to stop, but He wants us to WANT to not do that at all. He wants for a change in our hearts and wills such that we no longer even have a desire to sin.