Grace vs. the Law

[Lil Star]

I put this here because I am so very new to the bible and studying it for myself. I don't want harsh words used on me and hopefully, people will help me understand it better.

Which are we under? Grace? The Law???

If you are under Grace, then you are not under the Law.

If you are under the law, then you are not under Grace. It says it right in the bible. I was driving to pick my boys up last night when I was listening to a pastor on the radio. He was talking about being under the law vs. being under Grace. That you can not be doing both. It is either or. Which is it? I have heard it several times that we are under the law while other times it is said that we are under Grace. I came home and have been searching the bible online trying to find which it is. I have found some of which I will share when/if I get anyone willing to be nice and not be demeaning or hurtful or make innuendos. I am not looking for arguments. I am only looking for honest, open discussion. I will also need to be given time to read, go to the online bible and see for myself. Please do not bombard me with lots of technical terminology. As I have said, I am new to 'studying' the bible for myself.

[nuff sed]

No, it is not either or.................You can be spared from the penalty of the law by being extended Grace but you still have to abide by the Law because it is Eternal. The deputy I ride with monthly extends warning tickets (grace) more often than he writes a speeding ticket. Does this mean that the guilty speeders are now free to go 80 mph in that 50 mph zone??? Of course not.( By the way he only stops them when they are at least 22 miles over the limit! Guilty for sure!) It is the same with us. We need to stop confusing the Ten Commandments with the Law. The Law of God is Love. Anything that gets between us and God is Sin. (Sin is not a "thing" ..it is an attitude) God in His love and mercy has shown to us the ten danger areas that could separate us from Him. Therefore they are all positive and not negative.

[David Koot]

It is clear from the plain teachings of Scripture that as believers, we are under grace, not under the Law. Paul makes that plain in Romans, Galatians, Corinthians and elsewhere. He says, "Ye are not under law, but under grace." He says that we have died to the law, and are now joined to Christ instead of to the law. Christ in us, we united to Christ, is the model for a New Testament Christian.

Dave

[Lil Star]

Thank you Gladussee, I will check more into it. I will try and see if I can learn anything from the books in which I have been reading.

[Lil Star]

It is clear from the plain teachings of Scripture that as believers, we are under grace, not under the Law. Paul makes that plain in Romans, Galatians, Corinthians and elsewhere. He says, "Ye are not under law, but under grace." He says that we have died to the law, and are now joined to Christ instead of to the law. Christ in us, we united to Christ, is the model for a New Testament Christian.

Dave

This is what the guy was talking about on the radio last night. He even cited those as books I should be looking into for my answers. I have gone to a few of what he was talking about. I will be going back and reading more. I have checked into the bible online, typed in the word 'law' and it has taken me to some pretty powerful stuff. I have to take things in slowly or I will not know for myself what I am reading.

To the both of you, thank you

[Amelia]

That is the trouble I have always run into when trying to study on my own. I often get discouraged because it seems one needs to be extreamly educated to learn from the bible. It never seems clear and plain to me.

[Gerr]

Paul is very emphatic when he said:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." Eph 2:8 NKJ

"Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Rom 3:20 NKJ

But he is equally emphatic when he said:

"Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish law." Rom 3:31 NKJ

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?" Rom 6:1,2 NKJ

Not only can't we continue in sin, he further teaches that:

"Those who practice such things [adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, etc. etc.] will not inherit the kingdom of God." Gal 5:21, 19-20

Putting all these together, this much is what comes across clearly to me:

1. We are saved by grace through faith.

2. We are not under law as a way to salvation.

3. Not being under law in no way shape or form mean that a saved person is now free to disregard the law. A saved person will not keep on breaking the law; rather, a saved person will keep the law as a loving response to being saved, Jn 14:15.

Gerry

[Lil Star]

I am never discouraged, just makes me more inquisitive. The less I know about things, the more I want to know about things.

[Lil Star]

Thank you Gerry. I will be checking into these as well.

[Lil Star]

As I have been studying, so far I have come to the conclusion that we are saved by grace. We are under the laws of the government which is worldly, but I think from what I've been reading, we are saved under grace.

Gal. 5

[3] For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

[4] Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

[14] For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[18] But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

[23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Then it starts talking about circumcision.

Does that mean what I thin it means? Please discuss this with me and give me your input. Not as fact, but as discussion.

[Woody]

I would point out that while we have the law as a way to point us to the best possible life .... one that will keep us in the right connection with God .... we will not come to the place to where we are with out sin.

We will sin until the day we die. Therefore ... we are saved IN sin. WE are saved of all those sins we commit. That is why Christ came to this earth to die for our sins. So, we are saved by Grace from the penalty of the Law. IT therefore no longer applies as a condemning factor for those who accept the sacrifice of Jesus. Although it does apply as a better way of life. (A little heaven on earth ... but only a little!!)

[Lil Star]

Redwood,

This is exactly what I hoped to prevent. No one at any time has said, or at least I didn't, that I believed I would be without sin. Why this strong desire all the time to address another issue and make it seem as if I asked? I need to deal with one issue at a time. Please?

Will I be without sin? I know that we all live with sin. So, it makes discussing anything very difficult.

Let's try to keep one subject going at a time.. I need to know one before going to another.

I will take what you have said and research it all the same.

[Woody]

Quote:

No one at any time has said, or at least I didn't, that I believed I would be without sin.

Neither did I say anyone had said it. But, on the subject of Grace vs Law ... this is an important concept to know and a basis of the discussion.

[Lil Star]

Ok

[LifeHiscost]

I will be going back and reading more. I have checked into the bible online, typed in the word 'law' and it has taken me to some pretty powerful stuff. I have to take things in slowly or I will not know for myself what I am reading.

May I suggest, Lil Star, that in all your searching you ask for God's Holy Spirit to guide you.

"If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" Luke 11:13 KJV

"Guide me in Your truth and faithfulness and teach me, for You are the God of my salvation; for You [You only and altogether] do I wait [expectantly] all the day long." Psalm 25:5 AMP

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." John 16:13 KJV

Not to discount faithful followers of Jesus as helpful, we all are subject to err when it comes time to make decisions, especially about the lives of others. God is love, and when He speaks to you, the decisions He makes for your life, it will be with your interests even before His own, as is plainly seen in giving His Son in order for you to be saved eternally.

God bless you in your journey of faith.

Regards!

[David Koot]

Hi Lil Star,

Just wanted to follow up a bit. I notice what you found in your study. Indeed, as I understand it, we are not under law but under grace. The 'law' includes the whole law, the whole shooting-match so to speak. The Jews had boasted, 'All that God has said, we will do.' They pledged to keep all the terms of the law. It didn't work. "By the deeds of the law shall no flesh be justified."

Salvation includes several components. When a person repents of sins and accepts Jesus as Savior, the following events occur:

1) S/he is 'justified' which means 'acquitted.'

2) S/he is spiritually joined to Christ, and is adopted into the family of God;

3) The New Birth takes place within the person.

The adoption is not a yo-yo. It is a keeper. Being joined to Christ is not a yo-yo. It is a keeper. The new life continues within the believer.

All of this happens apart from the Law, and the believer in Jesus is judged on the basis of being joined to Christ, one with Christ.

The moral law is indeed a standard of right and wrong, and it is a guide to behavior. But the believer in Jesus is IN CHRIST. That is the basis of salvation--being IN CHRIST. So long as the believer chooses to continue in the relationship, Jesus Christ, to Whom s/he is joined, will continue to purify the believer from every defilement. God is faithful. He will not let a person down, and He will complete the work He has begun.

Lil Star, I believe that the focus for a believer should be Jesus, not the Law. If the focus is Jesus, then any issues pertaining to the Law will be taken care of by Jesus. And if someone is in Christ, he or she is safe from the judgment, and has passed from death to life.

Dave

[Lil Star]

Thank you LHC. I have often followed posts made by you. I do ask God to lead me, I will continue to ask God to lead me. He is the reason I am doing this. To find Him for myself with help of others as well as God Himself.

There are other things I want to know about. However, I will do so after I get this one down for myself.

[Lil Star]

Thank you David for what you have said here. I am continuing my search in the bible. I am just confused and so I am going to take this slowly so that I can make sure of what I believe.

[David Koot]

This may sound simplistic, but I truly believe that if one will keep his or her focus on the Lord Jesus, the rest tends to get taken care of. And not to get bogged down in doctrinal controversies and debates, which Advents seem to EXCEL in!

[David Koot]

I would like to add this thought:

If we are under the law, then no matter how hard we try to act as best we know how, we will lose out. We are not under the law, thank the Lord. Romans 7:1 - 10 tells us that belivers have DIED to the law, and now are joined to Christ. Thus, they are IN CHRIST. Sometimes Adventists can be Judaizers! In Christ, our performance is not the issue, but our acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Substitute--His perfect life in place of our defective life. At the same time, if we are in Christ, He will be working in our lives to change us. It is His work, as we stay focused on Him.

[Kevin H]

First there are some very interesting new archaeological discoveries that teach what the term "Under Law" meant in Paul's day. We too often read into that phrase what it meant to the Reformers in the 16th Century, and the view of the Dispensationalists in the 19th Century.

Adam, Noah, Moses, David, Ezra, Malichi, Paul... God's people have always lived under grace. God is not schozophrenic having different periods with different ways of salvation. It was grace from the first created angel and first created being on other planets, and it will be grace a billion centuries on the new earth. Even the trinity live in a righteousness by faith / grace relationship with each other.

Also, as we study into what the Bible and Mrs. White really teach about the nature of hell fire, the idea of living under grace becomes even clearer than with the traditional but non-Biblical views.

Anyway, a little about the new Archaeological discoveries. The Synogogue of the Freemen that Paul belonged to was not mainline Judiasm. It's members were former slaves or the children of former slaves. They earned their freedom and full Roman citizenship for working for, about 20 years, 18 hours a day, seven days a week. When they were freed, they became a right wing hate group who wanted to prove that they were better Jews than the Pharicees and others who were born and raised in Judah. They were interested in more than religion, but very nationalistic and culturalistic. For example in one point, they were strict in speaking only Hebrew and Aramaic. Their donkeys could have had bumper stickers reading "Welcome to Jerusalem, now speak Hebrew or at least Aramaic" they had no tolerance for the Greek speaking Helenized Jews and hated them as apostates and compromizers of the faith. The first persecution of Christians was not for following Jesus, but that the followers of Jesus had an outreach to the Greek Speaking Helenistic Jews, instead of forcing them to prove that they were better Jews than the typical Jew. When Gentiles were converted to Judiasm, they were to give up their family and heritage and get a Jewish ansestry, and live in gettos so not to come into contact with gentiles.

They called this cultural, nationalistic "I'm a better Jew than you are" living under the law, or "The Works of the Law".

Now they still believed in salvation by grace and did not see "The works of the law" as having a bearing on their salvation. They only saw it as showing pride in their heritage, and wanting to prove that dispite having to break the sabbath by working seven days a week for about 20 years, that they were to prove that they were better Jews than the typical Jew of Judah.

Paul supported a non-nationalistic and ritualistic form of Judiasm. Paul was reminding them that they were saved by grace and that you did not have to join a right wing hate group wanting to prove that "I'm more Jewish than you are."

[Lil Star]

duplicated post