Story of Hank

[fccool]

Sad but true that some people share gospel in such manner. I think it's a fair description of door-to-door evangelism. Not to say that it does not have its place, but we need to learn to put ourselves in the shoes of the unbelievers.

Story of Hank

[John317]

I agree that fear and threats ought not to the motivation for serving God, but the fact is that the Bible itself shows that God sometimes has had to use it in order to get people's attention. Sometimes you have to hit the mule with the 2" by 4" to get it to pay attention to you. We don't think the police are using poor arguments if they tell people running red lights that they could get killed doing it. So what is wrong with telling people that continuing to sin and failure to turn to Christ will result in eternal death? Isn't it true? And if so, why not tell the truth?

That is not saying that this should be our main reason for committing one's life to Christ, but it certainly can be a good reason to take the first step. It is healthy to be concerned about the dire consequences of sin. One consequence is that people will die without any possibility of a future life.

In any case, however, why use the propaganda of scientology?

It really uses a lot offensive language, don't you think so?

[fccool]

I think it is only healthy to realize that some people do not want what we have. God does not force it on them and does not use the tactics that we do. I don't think that door to door evangelism is wrong, but I do think it's misleading... misleading for others to believe that we actually care about them when many people are shamed into doing the door to door evangelism in the first place. I certainly think that this is the case in our church, as asking people to go door to door is like pulling their teeth. Yesterday the pastor preached the entire cermon on effectiveness of door to door evangelism and gave an appeal to the congregation that there will be people going door to door after the church. Less than 10 people went out, and I think not because they wanted to, but because they felt it was their duty to do so. I can't speak for everyone, but I certainly can for myself and other people who admitted that this was the case.

So the question is... why is it do we feel aversion to such evangelism methods? Why do you think it is so? I have my ideas, but I'd like to hear yours.

PS. I am not using propaganda of Scientology. I'm sharing an example of how some people view us going door to door. You have to understand some people and understanding works much better than 2x4. Understanding also involves working with people where they are and ignoring some flaws such as offensive language.

[John317]

I think it is only healthy to realize that some people do not want what we have. God does not force it on them and does not use the tactics that we do.

I don't think that Christians generally are unaware that some people don't want what we have. I am certainly very well aware of that, and I don't know of any SDAs who think that everyone wants what we have.

On the other hand, the truth is that most people don't know what we have. So it may be that a lot of people who don't think they want what we have would change their mind if they really knew what we have.

But yes, it is true that we don't force what we have on them. I don't know of anyone in the SDA church who try to force people. If they do, they don't understand that God isn't interested in forced worship or any worship that is not given freely and intelligently.

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I don't think that door to door evangelism is wrong, but I do think it's misleading... misleading for others to believe that we actually care about them when many people are shamed into doing the door to door evangelism in the first place.

Do you think that door to door evangelism per se is misleading? Would it be misleading, in your judgment, if people actually did care about the people they were meeting?

Have you gone door to door, and if so, what kind of experience did you have? Did you enjoy it or were you embarrassed? Were you shamed into doing it?

What makes you think that they were shamed into doing it? Is that what they told you? How many told you this?

I have gone door to door quite a lot. Actually I worked for over 2 years as a literature evangelist in the Seattle/Bremerton area, and during those 2 years I did nothing for about 10 hours a day except go door to door. Also, during college at PUC, I spent two summers going door to door all over the Bay Area and throughout Moreno Valley in Riverside County. I have never felt any shame at all, and I love talking to people and hearing their views, no matter what their view is. I've been in homes where the person tells me they are on heroin and need help, and I've done what I can-- even taking them to the hospital for OD-- and other times coming back to study the Bible and pray with them, at their request. You apparently have no idea of the thirst for truth that is out there.

In all due respect, I think you are completely wrong to say that people who do this kind of work don't care anything about the people they meet and talk to. Maybe that describes some people but certainly not the ones I know who do that kind of work. For two summers I was one of a large group who went door to door in Oakland and in different cities in Southern California, and all I heard were good things that happened. I love going into people's homes and I truly care for the people I'm meeting. I view them as people for whom Christ gave his life, and I try to talk to them the same as Christ would if he were there.

One year a church elder and I would go out together to visit church members who hadn't been to church in quite a while. We went out on Sabbath after dinner. It was a great experience. We would pray with and for the people we met, and we never had any bad experiences in their homes. They were always glad to see us.

Why wouldn't they be? I am always glad for anyone from the church to come by and see me, and ask me how thing are and invite me to go to church.

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I certainly think that this is the case in our church, as asking people to go door to door is like pulling their teeth. Yesterday the pastor preached the entire cermon on effectiveness of door to door evangelism and gave an appeal to the congregation that there will be people going door to door after the church. Less than 10 people went out, and I think not because they wanted to, but because they felt it was their duty to do so. I can't speak for everyone, but I certainly can for myself and other people who admitted that this was the case.

One of the problems is that people are often not trained to know what to say. It's not enough just to tell people to go out and do this work. There has to be adequate preparation. There should be several days of training and role playing before someone is expected to go door to door, and even then they should be doing it with an experienced person who will do most of the talking, so they can see how.

And it's also a fact that not everyone has a talent for this door to door evangelism. But on the other hand, if a person doesn't try it (with an experienced person) and if they don't pray about it and ask the Lord to direct, they may never realize that it's exactly God wants them to do it. There are people who have a talent and ability and don't realize it for a long time because they are too shy or too unwilling to trust God to lead them.

Remember that there are millions and millions of people who would never attend a church or even watch a religious program on TV, and a lot of these people don't have any Christians friends. So the only contact they have may be with someone who knocks on their door.

Also, remember that today may be that person's last day on earth. How many people die unexpectedly from either an undiagnosed illness or an accident or crime?

Do you believe that some people will be lost because there were Christians who knew the truth and knew the gospel but who did not go out of their way to help them or to talk to them? I do. I believe that lives hang in the balance for want of hearing the gospel and responding to it.

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So the question is... why is it do we feel aversion to such evangelism methods? Why do you think it is so? I have my ideas, but I'd like to hear yours.

Two basic reasons: (1) Not convinced you have "gold" or the truth that people need; and (2) inadequate training combined with a lack of confidence and a lack of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. #2 includes not being persuaded that it is needed or important.

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PS. I am not using propaganda of Scientology.

I was referring to the fact that the source of it was apparently a Scientology website. That's what I mean by propaganda. They're opposed to door-to-evangelism by Christians, and therefore they have reason to put it in its worst light. Sure, there are some Christians who might do it badly, but my experience is that most of them do much better than what that site would lead you to believe.

Personally I am always glad to talk to Christians of any denomination and welcome them. I am just glad that they are out on the streets talking to people and praying with them.

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I'm sharing an example of how some people view us going door to door.

Who cares how SOME people view you going door to door? Should that stop you? Should the fact that some people don't like your message discourage your from giving people an opportunity to hear? Do you know many people are glad to hear? How many are praying for God to send someone?

Let's suppose that I am going into a certain area of the city to photograph. I really want a picture of something. Do you think I would get the picture if I am concerned that some people may not like me to be there with a camera? When I photograph in some parts of LA, I've had people challenge my presence because they see I have a camera. Do you think I would ever get the picture if I am just thinking about how those people feel?

Now the gospel is much more important than a picture, so if I am not going to let someone's dislike of my camera prevent me from doing what I have to do to get a picture, why should we let someone's dislike of the gospel prevent us from taking it to those who want to hear?

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You have to understand some people and understanding works much better than 2x4.

I understand all right. I understand that some people are so wrapped up in the things of this life, without any recognition of God or of the value of the gospel, that God sometimes has to do drastic things to wake them up to reality. And I understand that sometimes it is a good thing to tell someone that unless they change, they will perish eternally. You ever notice that Christ sometimes did that?

That happened to me one time, and I am grateful to the "Jehovah's Witness" who told me. He told me what my SDA friends never did.

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Understanding also involves working with people where they are and ignoring some flaws such as offensive language.

That is not what I have reference to. I am not personally offended by such language. I am talking about the use of it on CA in the link you posted.

[Nightingale]

Excellent post John. I am very thankful that there are people out there visiting. There are many in their homes waiting for someone to show that they care. We can't stop because there are some who don't.

[fccool]

John,

I'm not opposed to door-to-door evangelism LIFESTYLE. Evangelism is a lifestyle. It's a way of life. What I question here is once a year planned events to offset the lack of that lifestyle.

I've knocked on many people's doors, I've slept with homeless people on the street (as a part of the evangelism curriculum), I went on numerous mission trips, and I have certainly done that past college life. What drives me nuts is not the fact that people go door to door, but the idea behind it. We come out only to invite people in and we expect them to respond based on that 5 minute conversation and then we expect them to change by going to church and etc. I am not saying that this does not happen, but this is not usually the case when I ask people about their salvation experience. What you you usually get if you asked that question is friendship/relationship based conversion. People go out of their way to BRING CHURCH AND GOT TO UNSAVED, and not the other way around.

We've read this story the first day of our evangelism class... and our prof asked us what was wrong with it? The answer from the class was the consensus that this was a misrepresentation of what is really going on, BUT many people paint door to door knocking Christians in this light, and IMO rightly so. And there was certain truth to that as the evangelism that the early Christian engaged in is quite different from what you see today in US. That's why the church is deteriorating in US while it's booming in the third world. The relationship factor. In NYC the guy was riding on the subway for two days - dead. The desensitization that we experience here on every day bases is incredible! During the two days living on the streets with homeless people I've learned much. One of those things was how little I really paid attention to these. Each of them had heartbreaking stories, and they would speak for hours. The terrible things happened to them. It hear those stories every time when someone would say .... "They'll just buy booze with it"... or "They get untaxed income".

So please understand where I'm coming from here. Sure people are walking door to door knocking and reciting a script that they were adequately trained to recite, but is this what we see Jesus and disciples doing in the Bible? I don't see it! I see active participation in the communities, around which the churches where built. In fact, the communities were the churches and churches were communities (not buildings or organizations). It was a small groups approach which I'm really excited about and it really worked in my experience.

Just to show you why I posed this link which reminded me of that first day in that class... Yesterday, because of the lack of support of the local members, our pastor preached a message of Christian responsibility to be evangelist. There's no opting out as he pointed out, and that there are no such things as Christians who do not evangelize. He made an appeal afterwards for people to come and go door to door. Less than a dozen people showed up, a couple of them who I spoken to admitted that they don't feel like doing it but they do it because they should. A couple who I knew really well said that they don't want to have their parents sending them on a guilt trip for not coming.

God certainly can use us in this condition as he did Jonah, but this is far from ideal. I think that it would be much more effective and productive to send people to do what they love to do while relaying the message... small groups approach. There time and place for door to door, but I don't see it as being proper under such circumstances.

PS. Yes, God can use 2x4 to wake people up, but it is God who does the smacking and not us. Sure, some people can handle it, but from experience... most can't. That's why Jesus spoke in parables, unless he spoke to Pharaseis whom he criticized heavily. I think that Jesus sticking up for the woman who was about to be stoned was far from 2x4 approach, this was even the case with Judas.

[Woody]

I've done door to door evangelism full time for a full year. Not much results from it I have to admit. Just one person who started attending faithfully. I guess one is worth it ... but .... One FULL year of full time work ???

[fccool]

Red,

You never know though... you can't always measure results by measuring people who come to church as a result. It would be nice if it worked that way, but it does not. It's a long process in many cases that takes years in some cases. Thank God for those overnight salvation experiences, but this is not usually the case from my experience of sharing the good news. People usually don't change overnight or over 5 minute conversation. It's a great tool for getting your foot in the door, but there has to be discipleship evolved... especially if people are not willing to come to church because of the religious stigma in their mind.

[John317]

.... We come out only to invite people in and we expect them to respond based on that 5 minute conversation and then we expect them to change by going to church and etc. I am not saying that this does not happen, but this is not usually the case when I ask people about their salvation experience. What you you usually get if you asked that question is friendship/relationship based conversion....

I'm in fundamental agreement with everything you've said in your post.

I do have a question about your statement that we expect them to respond to a 5 minute conversation, etc. I think you may be right about some inexperienced, untrained people, but those who know what they're doing in evangelism certainly don't think that way. That is completely unrealistic to expect people to to react that way or to be that way. Change does not usually come about because of a 5 minute conversation. The salvation experience, and the spiritual growth, usually takes place over a fairly long period of time, and are the result of many factors and the influence of many people rather than just one or two. And like you have said, it is most often connected to friendships and relationships that they've established. However, many have become SDA strictly on the basis of studying the Bible doctrines and being convinced that the SDA church is closest in its teachings to the Bible. But even so, there is usually one or two personal relationships that the new member has established with SDAs.

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.... And there was certain truth to that as the evangelism that the early Christian engaged in is quite different from what you see today in US. That's why the church is deteriorating in US while it's booming in the third world. The relationship factor. In NYC the guy was riding on the subway for two days - dead. The desensitization that we experience here on every day bases is incredible!

What you say here does certainly describe the way many people are, especially those living in the larger cities. But it is not just in the US. Actually it is far worse in some other places. I don't how know much you have lived outside of the US, but in the big cities they have the same problems you are talking about in Europe, Africa and Asia. Have you ever been to Calcutta or Bangkok, for instance?

But you are right about people being desensitized. I live in a rather small town and drive into LA, so this is something I am very aware of. Please go view some of my pictures that I've taken in downtown LA. My photographs generally concentrate on the poor and the dispossessed, the rejects of society.

What you say is certainly true of the majority of people in the larger cities and to some extent even in the small towns, but it shouldn't be true of genuine Christians or of SDAs; but if we don't deliberately fight against being desensitized, we will join those who are.

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........ Just to show you why I posed this link which reminded me of that first day in that class. Yesterday, because of the lack of support of the local members, our pastor preached a message of Christian responsibility to be evangelist. There's no opting out as he pointed out, and that there are no such things as Christians who do not evangelize. He made an appeal afterwards for people to come and go door to door. Less than a dozen people showed up, a couple of them who I spoken to admitted that they don't feel like doing it but they do it because they should. A couple who I knew really well said that they don't want to have their parents sending them on a guilt trip for not coming.

If they felt that way, they really shouldn't go out. Those are not the right reasons or motivation for going out to do evangelism.

For the church to be active and do what God expects us to do, there has to be much, much more than simply an appeal made on Sabbath to be an evangelist. That sounds very superficial and I am surprised that any pastor would think that way.

It depends, most of all, on the presence and work of the Holy Spirit, and on the individual believers in the church having a personal, faith-based relationship with Jesus Christ. If a congregation doesn't have that, it isn't ready to go out doing the things you are talking about.

How can I expect the Holy Spirit to use me in evangelism if I don't have the Holy Spirit in my life and am not walking in the Spirit? That is so critical. That is the basic foundation.

One of the most important things a pastor and the elders must do, if they're planning on having a growing, spiritually mature congregation, is to visit the members in their homes and get close to them personally so that they understand the members and know their spiritual needs. Many pastors don't know their congregations and don't see them outside of church. How does he know what to pray for and what the congregation needs to hear on Sabbath if he doesn't know them very well? I would say that the hours spent visiting the members in their homes is often more important than the sermons. In fact, the chances are that if the pastor does not visit, his sermons are not the right ones for that specific time and that specific congregation.

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God certainly can use us in this condition as he did Jonah, but this is far from ideal. I think that it would be much more effective and productive to send people to do what they love to do while relaying the message... small groups approach. There time and place for door to door, but I don't see it as being proper under such circumstances.

Great idea. I agree. I hope you relay that to your pastor if you haven't already.

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PS. Yes, God can use 2x4 to wake people up, but it is God who does the smacking and not us. Sure, some people can handle it, but from experience... most can't. That's why Jesus spoke in parables, unless he spoke to Pharaseis whom he criticized heavily. I think that Jesus sticking up for the woman who was about to be stoned was far from 2x4 approach.

You have a different idea than I do about what is the 2 x 4 approach. I am simply talking about telling people the honest truth. You have to care enough about people to be honest with them. I'm not talking about being rude or "in your face."

Jesus told people, "You will die in your sins unless you believe that I AM" (John 8: 24). "If any one keeps my word, he will never see death" (v. 51). In other words, if any one does not, he will see eternal death.

Romans 10: 8-- "If you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." In other words, if you don't, you won't be saved.

1 Cor. 6: 9, 10-- "Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived (misled): neither the impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who participate in homosexuality,

10Nor cheats (swindlers and thieves), nor greedy graspers, nor drunkards, nor foul mouthed revilers and slanderers, nor extortioners and robbers will inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God."

Those are examples of the 2 x4s I am referring to.

[Woody]

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I am simply talking about telling people the honest truth. You have to care enough about people to be honest with them

I have found that this type of attitude doesn't work well. If you tell someone that this is the truth ... if puts up a barrier between those who have THE truth and those who are trying to study and find out if it is the truth. But this elietest attitude appears to be holier than thou.

I prefer saying that ... "this is what I have discovered from my study of the Bible". It may be THE truth ... but I am not going to be so proud as to say that. That would create unnecessary barriers. Let each person study for themselves with the use of the Holy Spirit.

[LynnDel]

It seems to me that this story is not only about evangelism, but also about the writer's view of God and His relationship to those He has created, loved, and saved. I fear that this is the attitude of many.

But, on second thought, maybe the way the gospel has been shared is what leads to those kinds of attitudes.

[LifeHiscost]

Sad but true that some people share gospel in such manner. I think it's a fair description of door-to-door evangelism. Not to say that it does not have its place, but we need to learn to put ourselves in the shoes of the unbelievers.

The Father didn't go down to the pig pen for the prodigal, nor did Jesus go to the brothel to give invitation to Mary. It is true the Holy Spirit is sent to woo away from the lies the prince of darkness presents as Jesus came to this earth, but when the invitation is spurned, the voice of the Holy Spirit becomes less and less distinguishable for clear guidance.

I didn't finish the story of Hank as per the Holy Spirit's warnings.

It has happened to them according to the true proverb, " A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire." 2 Peter 2:22 NASB Brackets theirs LHC

"The words of a [discreet and wise] man's mouth are like deep waters [plenteous and difficult to fathom], and the fountain of skillful and godly Wisdom is like a gushing stream [sparkling, fresh, pure, and life-giving]." Prov 18:4

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

I've done door to door evangelism full time for a full year. Not much results from it I have to admit. Just one person who started attending faithfully. I guess one is worth it ... but .... One FULL year of full time work ???

Were you more interested in making sure you were aware of all of the interests stimulated by the pamphlets you left behind, or were you most interested in the fact God leaves a promise behind for all those who serve Him in faith.

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." Isaiah 55:11

KJV

Regards!

[fccool]

I agree with everything that you have mentioned. I certainly think that the openness of the people would be cultural and not bound to a geographic location. In china walking door to door does not work period. I've talked to some missionaries and they've had the hardest time until they realized that this is something that is culturally unacceptable. I think that this is the case with post soviet block too. One has to work long and hard to earn people's trust.

PS. Where do I find your photos? I do some photography to semi-professionally.

[LifeHiscost]

I have found that this type of attitude doesn't work well. If you tell someone that this is the truth ... if puts up a barrier between those who have THE truth and those who are trying to study and find out if it is the truth. But this elietest attitude appears to be holier than thou.

I prefer saying that ... "this is what I have discovered from my study of the Bible". It may be THE truth ... but I am not going to be so proud as to say that. That would create unnecessary barriers. Let each person study for themselves with the use of the Holy Spirit.

"The officers answered, Never man spake like this man." John 7:46 KJV

Those who are interested in finding Truth respond favorably when they hear it.

"If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God" John 7:17 KJV

This, of course, does not preclude the need to set up an atmosphere in which the parties that are being reached might best recognize God's unfailing love for them, even when they err. We disciples, for the most part, find it difficult to reveal that when we ourselves feel offended.

Regards!

[fccool]

Originally Posted By: fccool

Sad but true that some people share gospel in such manner. I think it's a fair description of door-to-door evangelism. Not to say that it does not have its place, but we need to learn to put ourselves in the shoes of the unbelievers.

The Father didn't go down to the pig pen for the prodigal, nor did Jesus go to the brothel to give invitation to Mary. It is true the Holy Spirit is sent to woo away from the lies the prince of darkness presents as Jesus came to this earth, but when the invitation is spurned, the voice of the Holy Spirit becomes less and less distinguishable for clear guidance.

I didn't finish the story of Hank as per the Holy Spirit's warnings.

It has happened to them according to the true proverb, " A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire." 2 Peter 2:22 NASB Brackets theirs LHC

"The words of a [discreet and wise] man's mouth are like deep waters [plenteous and difficult to fathom], and the fountain of skillful and godly Wisdom is like a gushing stream [sparkling, fresh, pure, and life-giving]." Prov 18:4

Regards!

We are talking about people's homes here. It has little to do with what you posted above. If we knock on people's doors and ask to share something, we best do it in a manner that represents the kingdom. Also, when do believers receive Holy Spirit to guide them? I thought that it's the moment that one believes and asks for it. Do you expect non-spiritual people (lacking the spirit) to understand spiritual things? We can only lay a foundation for people to build upon.

1 Corinthians 2:14

"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

1 Corinthians 3:10-11

"According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ."

Some people do share the gospel in a way that people can not understand simply because they don't have the proper foundation to understand. Some start with Daniel and prophesy, and etc... and it's great, but people will not understand these without having that foundation... it will just be circular reasoning to them... just like in the story. Hank is right because he said so.

[fccool]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

I have found that this type of attitude doesn't work well. If you tell someone that this is the truth ... if puts up a barrier between those who have THE truth and those who are trying to study and find out if it is the truth. But this elietest attitude appears to be holier than thou.

I prefer saying that ... "this is what I have discovered from my study of the Bible". It may be THE truth ... but I am not going to be so proud as to say that. That would create unnecessary barriers. Let each person study for themselves with the use of the Holy Spirit.

"The officers answered, Never man spake like this man." John 7:46 KJV

Those who are interested in finding Truth respond favorably when they hear it.

"If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God" John 7:17 KJV

This, of course, does not preclude the need to set up an atmosphere in which the parties that are being reached might best recognize God's unfailing love for them, even when they err. We disciples, for the most part, find it difficult to reveal that when we ourselves feel offended.

Regards!

The same as above. Do you really believe that all of the people who are looking for the truth will find all of it by simply reading the Bible and listening to you ? If that's the case, the how do you explain the 1000s of denominations who agree on the major things, yet disagree on the minor ones and that causes the splits and separations? Do they all not have the Spirit? Do they all ignore the discernment that comes with the Spirit?

[LifeHiscost]

The same as above. Do you really believe that all of the people who are looking for the truth will find all of it by simply reading the Bible and listening to you ?

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

"The words of a [discreet and wise] man's mouth are like deep waters [plenteous and difficult to fathom], and the fountain of skillful and godly Wisdom is like a gushing stream [sparkling, fresh, pure, and life-giving]." Prov 18:4

Regards!

We are talking about people's homes here. It has little to do with what you posted above. If we knock on people's doors and ask to share something, we best do it in a manner that represents the kingdom. Also, when do believers receive Holy Spirit to guide them? I thought that it's the moment that one believes and asks for it. Do you expect non-spiritual people (lacking the spirit) to understand spiritual things? We can only lay a foundation for people to build upon.

1 Corinthians 2:14

"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

1 Corinthians 3:10-11

"According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it. For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ."

Some people do share the gospel in a way that people can not understand simply because they don't have the proper foundation to understand. Some start with Daniel and prophesy, and etc... and it's great, but people will not understand these without having that foundation... it will just be circular reasoning to them... just like in the story. Hank is right because he said so.

The point is well taken that we should provide the best possible attitude for presenting the gospel. However I find it doubtful anyone will be kept out of the kingdom based on another person's lack. In the end we each answer to our own failures. If that weren't true for the most part, then Adam's answer to God would have justified his actions in passing the buck, first to the woman, then to God.

"The man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate." Gen 3:12 NASB

Regards!

[fccool]

I have no doubt that the truth is revealed by the few. Difference between Noah, Johan and you and I are quite obvious. They had a direct unquestionable orders from God. These were very specific. Go to Nineveh, and build the ark because the flood is coming. They did not just one day had a feeling that they are right.

You and I have the Bible to go by and the Spirit to guide us. Two people may read the same passage and they will perceive different things as our cultural and educational backgrounds do not just disappear with salvation experience. I read the same passage I've read five years ago and more truth jumps at me... something that I've never thought of before. Do I always understand everything correctly? I know that I don't. Does it mean that I do not have Spirit? I sure rest on the promise that I do have it. Searching for truth is not always as easy as opening encyclopedia. Bible was written 2000 years ago in language other than English. You have to dig for the truth. Otherwise we would have the same views and ideas about everything the Bible teaches. Even disciples of Jesus had major disagreements and "spiritual fights".

[fccool]

The point is well taken that we should provide the best possible attitude for presenting the gospel. However I find it doubtful anyone will be kept out of the kingdom based on another person's lack. In the end we each answer to our own failures. If that weren't true for the most part, then Adam's answer to God would have justified his actions in passing the buck, first to the woman, then to God.

"The man said, "The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate." Gen 3:12 NASB

Regards!

That's a different issue though. What they had in the garden was a test of faith. They had the faith and they lost it. What you have when you preach is quite opposite... people not having faith and hopefully gain it. Our relationship to the unbelievers is outlined very clearly:

1st Corinthians 10....

23"Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive. 24Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others....

27If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience.....

.....So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

This kind of goes along with:

1 Corinthians 9:19-23 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

19for being free from all men, to all men I made myself servant, that the more I might gain;

20and I became to the Jews as a Jew, that Jews I might gain; to those under law as under law, that those under law I might gain;

21to those without law, as without law -- (not being without law to God, but within law to Christ) -- that I might gain those without law;

22I became to the infirm as infirm, that the infirm I might gain; to all men I have become all things, that by all means I may save some.

23And this I do because of the good news, that a fellow-partaker of it I may become;

What do you think about that approach of Paul?

[John317]

I agree with everything that you have mentioned. I certainly think that the openness of the people would be cultural and not bound to a geographic location. In china walking door to door does not work period. I've talked to some missionaries and they've had the hardest time until they realized that this is something that is culturally unacceptable. I think that this is the case with post soviet block too. One has to work long and hard to earn people's trust.

PS. Where do I find your photos? I do some photography to semi-professionally.

Glad you pointed that out about the cultural differences.

Have you returned to Russia to visit relatives?

I've posted some of my photographs on the following thread. So far it is three pages long. This first link contains some pictures I took in central LA. The second link is the beginning page of my pictures, which consist of many different themes and subjects.

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread..._Ski#Post167518

Also: http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/167518/1

[John317]

... Do you really believe that all of the people who are looking for the truth will find all of it by simply reading the Bible and listening to you ? If that's the case, the how do you explain the 1000s of denominations who agree on the major things, yet disagree on the minor ones and that causes the splits and separations? Do they all not have the Spirit? Do they all ignore the discernment that comes with the Spirit?

One of the major reasons we have all the many denominations is that they don't take ALL of the verses on a subject. For instance, many of them ignore Ecc. 9: 5 and say that Solomon simply did not know what he was talking about when it came to the subject of death. Or they ignore the fact that the Bible teaches conditional prophecy. Many groups stopped the reformation at the point at which their founder died.

The existence of many denominations cannot justly be blamed on the Bible by saying the Bible is confusing or that it does not teach doctrines clearly. This idea is at the bottom of the Catholic belief that only the "religious" (trained specialists & theologians) are capable of truly understanding the sacred texts and therefore only they have the authority to interpret them to the common people. That is precisely what many early SDA feared would happen in our church when we started giving out degrees.

The history of the Christian church shows that most of the doctrinal errors that came into the church were passed down to the laity by the thought-leaders. The doctrinal errors were not first accepted by the laity and then passed to the leaders.

Did you hear about the man who went to a missionary-training center in Colorado not too long ago and murdered some people there? Afterwards the police found a suicide note in which the murderer ranted against God, "Why didn't you have your d---- book written so people could understand it?" He was blaming God for his frustration at not understanding the Bible. I think one of the major problems is that people too often listen to their "leaders" instead of listening to the Spirit as they study the Bible personally in private.

But you ask the question, do they not all have the Spirit? The answer is no, not all do have the Spirit, at least not the Spirit of God. Do some ignore the impressions of the Spirit? Yes, many do.

It's interesting, in this connection, to study the history of the origin of the "rapture" doctrine. That's an example of why so many people believe false teachings.

[fccool]

John, I agree... and I don't blame God or Bible for the lack of clarity. I agree about the doctrinal errors being passed on through the leadership, but I don't agree that people don't take all of the verses into account. They know that the verses exist, but they interpret these in light of other verses. So they prioritize one passage above other, and then decide that some passages do not really "mean" what they explicitly state. I've encountered this almost with every denominational studies.

Secondly, there are so many translations of the Bible that at times do not translate things accurately. I don't want to offend anyone here, but I am not a big fan of the Clear Word Bible. Although it is a commentary, people read it as a Bible and many use it as their primary interpretation... and it inserts too much stuff between the lines that is simply not there. The other day we had a study, and someone read from Deutoronomy from Clear Word:

Deut. 5:3 It wasn't only with our ancestors that He made a covenant , but with us and with all who are alive today.

And I read it at the same time from KJV and YLT (my favorite translation).

Deut. 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day. KJV

Deut. 5:3 3not with our fathers hath Jehovah made this covenant, but with us; we -- these -- here to-day -- all of us alive. YLT

This is just a minor example.

Nevertheless, I think that God preserved the major truths for us to read and follow as being crystal clear. It's funny, but we've studied Bible in our literature class in Soviet Union. I remember doing a paper on the flood , and another group was doing paper on death and resurrection. But we thought of it and studied it as a myth. So it's hard for me to judge people who come in contact with the truth and don't see it as such... those who read and do not understand. Environment comes into play also when we read the Bible. Jesus himself said that it's better for someone to drown than to keep children from heaven. God will sort this one out.

[fccool]

But you ask the question, do they not all have the Spirit? The answer is no, not all do have the Spirit, at least not the Spirit of God. Do some ignore the impressions of the Spirit? Yes, many do.

John, what I was asking if all of them lack the Spirit. And you've answered that no. I believe that many do not. The prerequisites for receiving the Spirit are fundomental - Christ, and prerequisites to Baptism are not what we as SDA church make them today. I don't see any evidence that people have to agree on all of the 27 points in faith before they are Baptized. It's quite the opposite. You have to begin with Christ... the foundation and Baptism... your public profession of faith and sign commitment (just like circumcision was before), and then build on that. People can not understand Sabbath without having that knocked down. I think that at times we over-emphasize things that come as secondary before we establish the primary. The church will deny Baptism to people who did understand Christ, yet do not think that Ellen White is a prophet and etc.

Nation of Israel was a great example of it. They were saved from bondage... in a sense that they followed Moses (a type of Christ) out of Egypt but most of the original ones did not make it to the promise land. They did not believe that it was something good. They were scared of the difficulties that came along the journey. And they almost made it. some even attempted to take it by force (their own works). But it was those who had faith inherited the land eventually. I know there's more to it that that, but I have to run .