Police take kids from apocalyptic church

[John317]

If one believes that the OT was put together by mere humans alone, how does one explain the prophecies? How about Obadiah, for instance, written about the Edomites? Or Deut.28? Or Ezekiel 26?-- to mention just a few.

[LynnDel]

Back to the original topic -- I find it interesting that the group in Texas is styled a "sect" while the group in New Mexico is called a "cult." I guess we can be thankful for that.

[Taylor]

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Obviously, you are thinking that 1844 not only was a disappointment, but also a false interpretation...Because, if the prophecys regarding 1844 are incorrect, then there is no need for a prophetess/guide... Correct me if I am misinterpreting you here....

Assuming that is the case, how do you interprete Daniel? Literally, figuratively, prophectically? How?

To me its quite obvious that Ellen and James White were making a lot of it up as they went. I don't believe it was a pre-meditated or even conscious process, but one that grew out of the need to make something meaningful out of their extreme commitment to the idea of a second coming.

What makes the most sense to me is that the Old Testament was put together in the 6th century BC from various documents that had been collected and rewritten to blend Egyptian Babylonian and Semitic religious belief systems.

I think Daniel Dennet's work on memes has some insights into religious beliefs and processes. You can see this on the following video

Daniel Dennett & Bill Moyers

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In other words not only are the writings of EGW made up (even if not intentional) and her messages are not for us (i.e. they are simply suggestions made by a human without God's inpiring her, or giving her visions.) And since the Bible was put together and written by humans it is also open to interpretation of what is valid or not valid? I.E. from a written perspective there is no written absolutes, no black and white, no "thus saith the Lord"? So the anchor of life, then, the absolute truth, is simply what is "truth" for each person...based on our experiences, what works for us and how we feel about things or how we logically see things, or what scientists tell us? If that is the case, then isn't our knowledge based strictly on human reasoning?

[cardw]

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from a written perspective there is no written absolutes, no black and white, no "thus saith the Lord"?

It was the idea of "thus saith the Lord" that got both Wayne Bent and the members of this cult in trouble. Once you give your reasoning away to a book or a person, you become vulnerable to ignoring the cause and effect right in front of you.

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then isn't our knowledge based strictly on human reasoning?

Well unless you have another way of thinking and understanding while NOT using your brain, this is really all we have.

Written language is a human technology and essentially has been unavailable to the majority of people on the planet for most of its history, so I think the reliance on writing is really a worship of writing itself.

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So the anchor of life, then, the absolute truth, is simply what is "truth" for each person...based on our experiences, what works for us and how we feel about things or how we logically see things, or what scientists tell us?

The anchor of life, if there is such a thing, is simply what we each make up in our minds. We live in a deeply mysterious world and anyone who claims they know the mind of God or can interpret the mind of God based on a holy book to the extent that they believe everyone should see God in that way is exaggerating their own abilities.

With 33,000 different versions of Christianity there is simply no evidence that any one view of even Christianity is the "right" one, let alone God's view.

As I understand Wayne Bent, he took Ellen White's writings very seriously and when she states that we need to perfect our characters before the close of probation, he took that very literally.

Believing that it was possible he gathered a group of people with him that came to believe the same way, but determining if you have a perfect character without being arrogant is an impossible task.

One solution to this would be for him to actually become god and he certainly had a following that were quite willing to go along with this because it met both of their needs. If Wayne was Jesus then that confirmed that he had perfected his character and if the followers were part of the inside circle then they too must be on the fast track for perfect characters.

As I listened to their story it became quite evident that much of Wayne Bent as the messiah was created by his own followers as much as it was created by him.

While I did not go off to the desert to be with a cult, I did take Ellen White very seriously and I took the Bible very seriously. I read both of them very literally and within the culture of Adventism that I grew up with, the end of the world was a very real thing. This created a series of "memes" that made life a fearful daily ordeal for me. I recognize this state in almost any Christian church I have attended within some or most of the members.

This is a very harmful and toxic belief system that passes for "good" within any number of religious organizations. And it is particularly prevalent within organizations that claim to know the truth and seek to convince or impose their view on the world. And with Adventism it was and is seen as a life or death issue. This brings a whole other level of intensity that, for some people, is life threatening in the form of morbid depression or a life of fear and shame.

[Neil D]

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My question for this is why does the SDA church produce such ultra conservative dysfunctional people?

I don't think it's so much that the church produces such people, but it attracts such people. Take a look at any group of people who tend to lean toward either end of a liberal-conservative spectrum, and you will find kooks.

Attracts? Sorry, Lynndell if I tent to disagree with you...I think that there is more PRODUCTION than attraction...But you are correct in that there are those who are attracted and then go off the deep end...I went to wildwood, and found many a home grown adventist and few converted adventist. And yes, I am NOT home grown, but I have always been aware of Adventism because I had grandparents who were SDA, and my dad grew up SDA.

I kinda know the problem...We rely much on the word and suspend our thinking minds...that we take it an honor to have faith in something that we can not see. We rely on trust/faith so much that it is the path to travel and rely on EGW writings that we forget that there is some rational thinking that WE must do....

There is also an experience with the Word that is needful, and humbling and wonderful. And it is an experience that needs to be shared with fellow believers, and confirmed by the Word of God. Not exactly what Wayne Bents followers were doing.....

Oh well, I go off on the deep end.

[Taylor]

Wow, well Richard, I will respect you, I will never make fun of you. You would be welcome in my home any time.

I do feel that God is my anchor in life and that I can trust the Bible as being put together by men who were led y God. It is the Word of God for us. No we can't claim to ever understand the greatness of God or his thoughts but we can trust what we do know through His word, his leadings, and the very real changes he brings to people's lives. That isn't toxic faith, that is Christianity and I am so thankful we have a God who doesn't ask us to "check our brains at the door" like cults do, but He IS and has proven himself to be completely and totally trust worthy. He isn't some strange, weird, cult, he is a vibrant, living, all-powerful God who will come back and take us home to be with him for all eternity . There IS an anchor in the seas of this life and it is God. Yes we are expected to use our brains, no we are not to follow humans, and Wayne Bent believes much that goes against God's word through the Bible, and even against what is considered normal behavior even by decent christian and non-christian folks. He is strange because of his own sick perversions, not because God is like that or the Bible. He may have started out as an SDA but heaven forbid that he resembles any SDA's I know, and if he did, I would pity them.

[cardw]

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Wow, well Richard, I will respect you, I will never make fun of you. You would be welcome in my home any time.

That is very kind of you.

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I do feel that God is my anchor in life and that I can trust the Bible as being put together by men who were led y God. It is the Word of God for us. No we can't claim to ever understand the greatness of God or his thoughts but we can trust what we do know through His word, his leadings, and the very real changes he brings to people's lives.

In my experience there are certainly changes, but I see no evidence that these changes are the exclusive domain of people who believe in God or that the source of these changes is exclusively the Bible or prayer or any other religious connection.

I see the harmful ideas within Christianity as being those ideas that state that Christianity is the only source of truth and salvation and that those outside of its tenets are condemned. This exists in other traditions as well and I see no evidence that there is any exclusive way.

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Yes we are expected to use our brains, no we are not to follow humans, and Wayne Bent believes much that goes against God's word through the Bible, and even against what is considered normal behavior even by decent christian and non-christian folks.

Even your own reasoning appeals to other methods outside of Christianity. A natural rational awareness of what is harmful.

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He is strange because of his own sick perversions, not because God is like that or the Bible. He may have started out as an SDA but heaven forbid that he resembles any SDA's I know, and if he did, I would pity them.

Wayne lost both his parents at an early age and reports that he was kidnapped and raped by another man. So he has some history that probably contributes to a shifted awareness of himself that is beyond his ability to see through.

This history, combined with a rather condemnation laden belief system that was Seventh Day Adventism in a previous generation, would certainly set him up. You may not believe this way, but those of us who grew up at the tail end of that system of Seventh Day Adventism, know rather acutely the suffering caused by extensive reading of Ellen White and trying to carry out all those instructions.

I am fairly certain that if I had not left Seventh Day Adventism, I would either be working in some "true" version of SDA belief or dead. You seem to have the ability to set aside some of the more toxic teachings and resign them to either an exaggeration or a misinterpretation.

The problem comes when one takes the writings of Ellen White exactly as she claims. She claims that all her writings are God inspired and that they have authority to explain what God wants us to do. And the implication is that if we don't follow these writings then God will not bless us and eventually we may even be rejected by God.

I grew up in a culture and family that treated these instructions very seriously and solemnly. There was not a lot of room to think for myself. There was a lot of emphasis on following exactly what God instructed in the form of the Spirit of Prophecy with a lot of mythology about what happens when you don't follow these instructions.

Fortunately for me, I have since discovered that most of this stuff is simply not true and is based on a lot of need for control and has very little to do with either spirituality or maturity.

So, you may find solace in the idea that God provides an anchor. I simply do not. The idea of a God that requires all the mental gymnastics that people go through to make sense of it, is highly unappealing to me. I find that I experience far greater peace, joy, and happiness apart from trying to figure out what God wants.

[Taylor]

Well Richard, for what it's worth, whether you believe in God or not, whether you think there is a heaven or not, I hope to one day meet you in heaven in addition perhaps to one day meeting you here on earth. I think that there is truth, that God is real and I also have no doubt that He loves you unconditionally. I am also certain He would love to spend eternity with you in heaven. I wish you the best.

[LynnDel]

I don't know if anyone is following this story. Larry King had an interview with several Travesser followers earlier this week , including Wayne Bent's son, and I understand there is going to be some kind of follow-up on TV tonight, though I couldn't tell you what channel.

I find several aspects quite interesting about this cult. One is that there are no small children at the location. I wonder if those who had children realized it was not a healthy environment for their little ones and moved off. Another is that a number of them keep blogs (see http://travesser-thelasttrump.blogspot.com/ and links within that blog). They are quite open about sharing what they believe. According to several blog entries, Wayne Bent aka Michael of Travesser aka The Sinful Messiah was arrested and jailed several days ago, and released yesterday.

[Tom Wetmore]

The group's primary website/blog is at Strong City . The National Geographic Channel aired the documentary earlier this week.

Tom

[LynnDel]

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The National Geographic Channel aired the documentary earlier this week.

True, Tom. The airing earlier this week was a second showing (first aired in the U.S. April 23 or 24, prompting further investigation by authorities and the removal of the three teens). The program that is to be aired tonight at 7 pm was announced by Larry King, and from what he said I don't think it will be a third airing of that documentary.

[Stan]

Are the Seven wives also of adventist background?

None of the wives look like they would be of a similar age to him

[LynnDel]

Anyone interested in reading Larry King's transcripts from Thursday night may go to: Larry King

Update on the National Geographic program (info gleaned from the transcript above). I originally thought tonight's showing was not the NG program "Inside a Cult," but I was wrong. It is to re-air at 10 pm ET (7 pm via DirecTV in California).

[cardw]

You can view the whole National Geographic program on my latest blog post. The comments include some interaction with one of the cult members named Grace.

Just click on the link below and scroll down...

Cult Think: The abuse of Spirituality?

[carolaa]

You can view the whole National Geographic program on my latest blog post. The comments include some interaction with one of the cult members named Grace.

Just click on the link below and scroll down...

Cult Think: The abuse of Spirituality?

I had to agree with your assessment of Jeff. It made me want to cry for him the first time I saw it. I appreciated your insightful comments. Many people, like you, have been raised in Adventism exactly as you described, particularly in the 1960s and 70s. I know only a few from that era who are still in the church today. Some have returned after being away for many years and finding the church to be mostly past those dysfunctional ideas. Others have been able to remain Christians only by joining other denominations.

I want to march in and rescue these people, but what can realistically be done for "addicts," as you described them, who aren't able to respond to reason?

[cardw]

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I want to march in and rescue these people, but what can realistically be done for "addicts," as you described them, who aren't able to respond to reason?

I feel the same way. This is a very good question. Nothing is going to match the high that comes from believing that you have been with the God of the universe. And for those girls who had their first sexual experiences with Wayne, the recovery is going to be a lifetime, unless we discover ways to bridge that gap more quickly. And if one does awaken to the false claims, the feelings of betrayal are extreme. If you have no system of grace, the self recrimination can be overwhelming. In the case of this cult, the evidence is apparent, when the children who were taken from Strong City, went on hunger strikes to get back. Wayne Bent himself went on a hunger strike while he was in prison.

Few people understand the enormity of the harm because many parts of the personality are operating normally and if a person is bright enough they can split the painful parts off and keep them suppressed. Too many underestimate the power of shame and fear combined with beliefs that are unassailable by reason.

This recovery requires far more than a simple mental understanding. The programming involves the whole body and a person's emotional belief system. This requires a community of loving people who understand the path out of this and its pitfalls. This process is beyond any one person.