The Gospel made impotent ?

[Woody]

Quote:

"One wrong trait of character, one sinful desire cherished, will eventually neutralize all the power of the gospel.... The pains of duty and the pleasures of sin are the cords with which Satan binds men in his snares. Those who would rather die than perform a wrong act are the only ones who will be found faithful. {Mar 82.4}

For sure .... I thought the Gospel was more powerful than that. What do you think? Will one wrong trait of character destroy the power of the gospel? Not sure I can go along with perfection to this degree. I think the gospel is far more powerful than just one of my sins. If this is true ... then the gospel is impotent because sin abounds.

[Neil D]

A trait is not ONE instance....it is ongoing.

A sinful desire may be ONE instance, but if it is "cherished", then you are nurishing the desire...that also is an ONGOING problem.

There will come a time when the Gospel and the ongoing sinful problem will meet head to head and one will prevail over the other....At that point, the person decides either for Christ or for himself....It will be at that point the life will be changed....And if the ongoing sinful problem is favorably chosen, the gospel will continue to wage war against it and will continueally be replaced in favor of the sin....

If you have chosen for Grace, it's called maturity, growth, and sanctification...

That's my opinion...don't stone me for it...

[Kevin H]

The nature of hell fire is the visible pressence of God unveiled. We have two types of pleasures in our lives which go towards either our deepest desire, to love the world as Jesus has loved it, to be like and with Jesus; or towards our sinful nature, a disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world (contempt).

The character trait is where we try to hold on to some reason to have contempt towards Jesus and the world that he made. Things like generalized lessening of things, putting someone down for example; Setting ourselves up for failure, focusing of taking the time of people who really can't help us (or would take longer to help us) than going where we can get help, and when things go wrong enjoying the little voice inside of us saying "See, I knew the world was out to get me." Or external control psychology to try to get others to meet your wims, including what Wm. Glasser calls the 7 habits of miserable people: Complaining, Criticizising, Blaming, Nagging, Threatening, Punishing, Rewarding to control.

If we enjoy these character traits, we will not be happy in the pressence of Jesus. (and ever notice how some people seem like they would not be happy if they were to be happy? No matter what Jesus could do to make them happy, they would rather find reasons to complain about and focus on all their hurts.)

[Woody]

HEY REDWOOD

AS soon as you tell people that you are

a christian especially a 7th Day Adventist

christian. the watch you to find out if

you will live by what you claim. most

people do it to see if you will make

mistakes. BUT even if you have been

christians a long time people are still

watching you.

I believe what the statement means is that

your words and actions must be consistant

if they are not they your neighbors---

friends---coworkers--- even family members

will not take what you have to say at hearts

value making the gospel of little or no effect.

dgrimm60

I like what you have said here dgrimm60. Thank you.

But, I would point out and caution ... we are not suppose to look at humans and human behaviour. We are look to Jesus ... the author of our Faith. Looking at men ... we will only see failure. But in Christ we have the true way ... true perfection and salvation.

Looking to men (and women) who will always fail ... should strengthen our faith that ONLY Jesus has perfection and a way to follow. It should strengthen the Gospel not diminish it.

[carolaa]

I take that quote as just saying that we have to be surrendered and keep God first in our lives. I'm not familiar with the reference you gave.

[Woody]

I pulled it from the book Maranatha. But it is also in the 5th volume of the testimonies and Steps to Christ. (Page 34).

[Taylor]

Quote:

"One wrong trait of character, one sinful desire cherished, will eventually neutralize all the power of the gospel.... The pains of duty and the pleasures of sin are the cords with which Satan binds men in his snares. Those who would rather die than perform a wrong act are the only ones who will be found faithful. {Mar 82.4}

For sure .... I thought the Gospel was more powerful than that. What do you think? Will one wrong trait of character destroy the power of the gospel? Not sure I can go along with perfection to this degree. I think the gospel is far more powerful than just one of my sins. If this is true ... then the gospel is impotent because sin abounds.

I don't see this as a quote not so much about the power of sin but about the committment to truth and following God. If we love God so much that we come to hate sin, that is when we are fully on God's side. Our focus is not our sin but the incredible gratitude that we have for a God who loves us so much that we can't wait to spend eternity with God.

[Woody]

Quote:

"He longed to see in him a humble and contrite heart, conscious of the supreme love to be given to God, and hiding its lack in the perfection of Christ." DA 519

[Guest truthseeker007]

"One wrong trait of character, one sinful desire cherished, will eventually neutralize all the power of the gospel...."

Statements like these result in a lot of controversy among Christians. It seems like she is saying that we should reach a status of perfectness. Is this a subtle snaky manner of the devil in order to make grace seem worthless? Or was Ellen in a mood where she just wrote down the things that came to her mind, without being concious of her many contradictional statements?

One thing i know for sure, Ellen was not perfect, the thief on the cross wasn t perfect, no human has ever, or will ever become perfect. I don t think it was very wise from Ellen to connect perfection with salvation. And if hypothetically we could become perfect, do we still need Jesus for our salvation because we then don t need forgiveness anymore.

I think the church has to take a clear stance on the writings of Ellen White. Maybe they were inspired by God, but maybe they were only for the time of Ellen White. In that time it was important to realise for the people that something was going on and that the end of the world was coming. Could she have achieved this if she didn t distinguish herself from the only grace preachers of her time?

However rationally speaking she is right when she says that we should follow Christ 100 percent. We shouldn t hold on to sins. Me for example am addicted to pornography, i know it is wrong, but if i don t do that i feel lost and alone and then there is nobody to support me. I hate my sin and realise it will probably cost me eternal life. It doesn t matter that much because i hate my life anyway. As i see it, if you want to come to heaven you have to realise that that place is filled with harmony and that there is no place for sins around there. I don t think God can stand sin in his presence. We can see that clearly since God s presence is removed from mankind directly. It is Jesus our mediator that connects this sinfull world with God. I think i agree with Redwood that the saints become changed in the end in a moment when we will be freed from our sinfull nature.

Redwood said:

"But, I would point out and caution ... we are not suppose to look at humans and human behaviour. We are look to Jesus ... the author of our Faith. Looking at men ... we will only see failure. But in Christ we have the true way ... true perfection and salvation.

Looking to men (and women) who will always fail ... should strengthen our faith that ONLY Jesus has perfection and a way to follow. It should strengthen the Gospel not diminish it"

I think this is definitely true. A biblical Christian should use grace and love as a basis for true faith. Without this pillars we are nothing more than legalistic guilt ridden christians theorising and spiritualising the faith and grace of Jesus Christ. The power of the gospel is in grace and love.

[Neil D]

Neil's take-

Perfection is in the realm of Gods.

I am not God, and therefore can not be perfect, but I can excell in what I do...

I choose to be excellent...

[Kevin H]

Once again: Mrs. White is trying to get away from the false traditional view of hell (which Aventists have tended to modify) that heaven and hell are two different expirences; where the issue of salvation is "How do I get God to let me into heaven and not send me to hell." but to how God treats us all the same in the end but as we see Jesus in person in full unveiled glory, his very pressence to us is either heaven or hell, based on the character we are developing. Not not the occasional good deed or misdeed, but the general trend of the life.

[LifeHiscost]

Neil's take-

Perfection is in the realm of Gods.

I am not God, and therefore can not be perfect, but I can excell in what I do...

I choose to be excellent...

And therefor our Father is responsible for putting before His children impossibilities and gross overstatements?

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48 KJV

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

" Philippians 4:13 NKJV

Regards!

[jasd]

>>"How do I get God to let me into heaven and not send me to hell." but to how God treats us all the same in the end but as we see Jesus in person in full unveiled glory, his very pressence to us is either heaven or hell, based on the character we are developing.<<

Kevin H, I know what you’re saying, but we might bear in mind that judgement is given to the Son, Jesus Christ. That implication and distinction is what comforts. Salvation per se, for the sinner, may turn upon

the earnestness of the heart at the opportune and/or critical moment – rather than an entire lifetime of ‘walking the line’ - though ultimate rewards may be predicated upon the “character developed” and condign merit. (note: the thief on the cross)

[Kevin H]

Of course jasd. If people have the wrong view of hell (on either one side or the other) they will have wrong views of salvation and jugdment. Sadly we as Adventists come to Mrs. White's view of hell kicking and screaming and refuse to fully submit and end up with one foot in her teachings and the other in one of the two popular views of hell (the physical spanking, or universalism) and instead of Mrs. White's view of hell explaining passages like the one in the opening post here, we read those words from which ever view of hell our other foot is standing in.

Her words make sense when you see her big picture and how she is trying to warn us from the false views of hell. Unfortunetely we don't take them to mean what she meant but we read them and try to interpet them in the light of which ever false view of hell we are draging our foot in.