Moral dilemma..

[olger]

I have owned my own business for 24-years, and learned a lot of lessons in the process but recently I was faced with a moral dilemma that came out of nowhere.

Two weeks ago I received a call from a fellow in Cleveland. He said he worked for a "Hotel" and they wanted a price from us to spray polyurea in the exercise room. I ball parked the project over the phone and said I would send a firm quote via email. The email came back, undeliverable. I got on their website to check the email and discovered that the project is a homosexual place. The pictures on the website were borderline pornographic. Now what? I prayed about it and asked the Lord to guide me.

Two days later I received a call from a contractor who says I have been recommended to spray foam insulation. He has a project that he wants us to quote — a strip club in Dayton Ohio. Double “Now what?” We needed the work and already had authorization to do the jobs if we wanted them. Plus I have two fine sons who work with me and I am mindful of my example as a father. We talked it over between us but weren’t sure what to do.

You see I had also been toying with the idea of saying no to Cleveland and yes to Dayton. Homosexuality was worse because it is a grievous sin against nature, and the enemy was trying to get us to see the strip club in slightly more favorable light. I knew to be consistent I had to say no to both. Or yes to both.

I went through 5-days of turmoil, bouncing between rationalization and resolution. I consulted three spiritual men that I know to get their counsel.

One said “Do it, and look for ways to witness to these people.”

The other one said “Unspeakable things go on in those places. I would not even go in them.”

The other brother said “We will see more of this before Jesus comes. Be as wise a serpent and harmless as a dove.”

I was still in turmoil…

Friday morning I decided to seek an answer directly from the Lord and not get up until I had peace. I read the entire chapters of Psalms 117-134 in my morning devotional. In Psalms 119 there were verses that I could use either way. Quite by accident I turned to the book of Haggai and paused there for a moment…

In the second verse of the first chapter the weakness of rationalization jumped out at me. It hit home. In verse 6 it said that money earned in the wrong way will be placed into a bag with holes. The Lord convicted me on my knees in that moment that the contractor who asked me to quote the strip club needed to hear someone say no for moral reasons, even if it costs me potential income. I made the decision and peace flooded my soul.

I sent out two emails that morning – one to each place, telling them of my decision not to work there. I walked away from about 40k in those emails.

An hour later, the phone rang. It was a plastic company near Cincinnati. They said they had a 90,000 ft² roof that they needed to have installed and wanted me to bid the project for them. I said I would be glad to…

in Him,

gcw

[Amelia]

Awesome testimony olger. Not only is it a testimony of the blessing of God in following His way but also to your sons. They now see that God blesses His children for not falling into the temptations of satan. I believe that if you had taken those two jobs that more of the same would have followed. What would that have done to you? I don't even want to ponder on that one.

[Woody]

I don't believe it is legal to discriminate against customers on moral grounds. You could get in trouble. (Not that you would base your decision on this). Does anyone else know for sure about this matter? Have you consulted a lawyer about it Olger? Render unto Caesar .... ??

[Amelia]

I think they have the right to refuse service/quoting just like any other type of service industry. I believe you see signs at restaurants stating they have the right to refuse service to anyone. Stores also have that right and they also have the right to issue no trespass warrants on customers too. There are some areas where refusals are more touchy. Like home or apt sales/rentals. Job openings. etc

[cricket]

Matthew 5

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.’ 39 “But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 “If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. 41 “Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 “Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.’ 44 “But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 “For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 “If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

[Amelia]

I think it's quite natural for olger not to want to expose his sons to the effects of working around a strip club. And if working around homosexuals makes him equally at unease then so what. It's his company and his moral line in the sand he is keeping. We cannot berate him for having morals that might be different from others can we? Everyone has their own moral threshold right? At least I hope everyone has morals of some type.

[phkrause]

Olger I'd say that you did the right thing by asking the Father. And he obviously gave you the answer that you needed. God says seek and ye shall receive.

pkrause

[Neil D]

Olger I'd say that you did the right thing by asking the Father. And he obviously gave you the answer that you needed. God says seek and ye shall receive.

pkrause

My question is this-

Did God give you peace because

1] it was His will

or

2] it was YOUR will?

[jasd]

QR frame:

Whatsoever, you do - do it as though unto the Lord; and He will, remembering - bless you.

Were my sons consecrated vessels unto Gd - I would not expose them to the verah, verah tempting wiles and blandishments of [ahem] 'loose' women - especicially, were they at an age when testosterone rules!

As far as touching that which has been invested with evil - the Bible condemns it.

And as for the question of legalities..., one surely would not advertise that one refuses doing business with another because of their moral penchants (be they what they are) vis-à-vis Xtian ethics. That would be bearding the lion :-o

[aldona]

And here's another question:

Should I, as a medical practitioner, be providing medical services to people who I know are pursuing immoral lifestyles or unethical business practices?

After all, they are using their health and strength to do what is wrong. Shall I give them more health and strength to abuse, so they can continue to do so?

I'm not talking about prescribing Viagra to a sex offender or the birth control pill to a promiscuous teenager. I mean just regular health care of the kind that keeps them healthy enough to do their daily work and pursue their chosen activities.

aldona

[LifeHiscost]

Should I, as a medical practitioner, be providing medical services to people who I know are pursuing immoral lifestyles or unethical business practices?

After all, they are using their health and strength to do what is wrong. Shall I give them more health and strength to abuse, so they can continue to do so? aldona

I am fully satisfied that Olger was wiser than many, by seeking the Lord in prayer as to the decision that would be best for him in his circumstances and responsibilities. OTOH I wish he had prayed about the decision to bring his conclusion to other Christians, and maybe he did. There are always many who are willing to second guess the counsel God gives to those willing to depend upon His promises.

"You called in trouble, and I delivered you; I answered you in the secret place of thunder... Selah " Psalm 81:7 NKJV

"On the day I called, You answered me; You made me bold with strength in my soul." Psalm 138:3 NASB

"That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." Matthew 5:45 KJV

Regards!

[olger]

Thanks for your responses friends.

Addendum to the story: On Friday, the contractor with the strip club called me and asked if I could recommend another spray-foam contractor. I told him where to look. I asked him how his day was going. He sighed..

"Not very good."

"What's wrong?"

He said his 12-year old son had just had a siezure and was in the hospital. First time it had ever happened. I asked him if we could pray for his son. He said he would appreciate that. We did. (He's not a believer at all - yet).

"Another email from the contractor this morning (7:26 AM) "He is much better. Thanks!"

oG

[Bravus]

It goes to show (along with aldona's questions) that life is not simple, it's complex and often difficult. In this situation it looks to me as though God has honoured olger's choices, both in offering alternative work (but the step in faith had to be made first) and in offering a chance to witness/help. I suspect my own decision might have been different, but I hope I would have sought God first. I'm wondering whether there is a qualitative difference that matters between medical ministry and polyurea service... Blessings to you, olger, in wrestling with the tough ones and seeking God.

[Tom Wetmore]

Good points Aldona and CoAspen. As a lawyer, this is a common question posed especially for a criminal defense lawyer. A Christian criminal defense lawyer I know views this as his mission field.

While I don't fault Ger for his decision and going beyond his comfort level, I likewise would not frame this as a moral imperative or dilemma. It becomes very difficult to know where to draw the line on this sort of thing. Taken to its logical conclusion one wouldn't do business with anyone with different moral values and then ultimately not do business with anyone unless they have same beliefs. And then one would have to limit ones social contacts in like manner until one is isolated completely from the rest of the world we are commissioned to reach.

I appreciate Ger's willingness to reach out to the strip club owner as much as he did, but I suspect that is the end of that unless Ger continues to seek him out as follow-up to this limited conversation. Several questions flow from this. If Ger does continue to reach out to this man, is this not just as "questionable" by associating with known sinners, if not worse than merely doing business with him? On the other hand, if Ger had taken the job, wouldn't the opportunities to reach out and minister to this man, and perhaps some of his employees been even greater? Perhaps this was a missed opportunity to do something that could lead to an even greater good than a simple offer of prayer. But I also think it illustrates a reality that even those we percieve as engaged in terrible things (and conclude to be evil...) are much more normal people with normal problems common to all of us.

I also must agree with CoAspen's challenge of Ger's conclusion that the homosexual sin was worse than the strip club sin. In terms of the magnitude of the problem, there are far more heterosexual sexual sinners than homosexual sexual sinners. And is one sexual sin really worse than another sexual sin? And as for potential risk to his sons by being possibly exposed to sin in either context, are you serious! Which is more likely to be a temptation to a young heterosexual male! (But for that matter how much exposure would they actually have in either case doing the insulation work?)

Tom

[jasd]

>>Again the question, how do you know where the money comes from that is in your hand or that the person you are doing business with has not been gained by some sin?<<

Might cognizant volition bear? I think so.

[Gerr]

Not sure what the dilemma is....not working or accepting work or money from someone you consider a sinner....how do you stay in business??

Using the Bible to support your decision seems a little dangerous to me. If you don't want to doit, than don't! If you want to, than do it! I do not believe in using the Bible to support our own biases when dealing with other people.

If you can't/don't use your Bible to make moral decisions, of what good is it?

Gerry

[Woody]

General Response .... not referring to Olger ....

The Bible is of little good with out the right Spirit. Us 'sinners' will use our own 'biases' to be 'impressed' with the desired choice.

[Gerr]

And how do you know if Olger was/not in the right spirit?

Gerry

[Woody]

I have no idea. It is not my job to judge what Olger does. And anyway ... I wasn't referring to Olger.

[Woody]

Let me just go a little further ....

If we just go by what 'we' think the Bible says .... some of us would 'rightly' be worshipping on Sunday. I know many sincere Christians who feel that it is fine to keep the Sabbath on Sunday.

Just the Bible alone is not enough. You must have the right "Spirit" to rightly follow God. I am confident that some of my understandings of scripture are wrong. But, I 'feel' I am following scripture. Apparently I must have some 'self' in the way. Or perhaps I am just not intelligent enough. Who knows.

But to say that the Bible is what determines what you do just may not be the entire story.

[jasd]

>>Should I, as a medical practitioner, be providing medical services to people...<<

Perhaps, there is cause that Writ adjures against oath-making or taking.

>>...who I know are pursuing immoral lifestyles or unethical business practices?<<

The subject may turn upon the definition – invested evil. Anyway, doesn’t the MD have discretion to provide or deny his or her services? Why might not that be based upon issues involving ‘invested evil’?

“Those who speak most of progress measure it by quantity and not by quality.” --Geo Santayana

>>And as for potential risk to his sons by being possibly exposed to sin in either context, are you serious!<<

Upon reviewing the above posts – I cannot find a suggestion that “sons” may be exposed to “sin in either context”. That said,

I did find a post which referenced an ‘exposure’ to the “verah, verah tempting wiles and blandishments of [ahem] 'loose' women...” – specifically.

>>(But for that matter how much exposure would they actually have in either case doing the insulation work?)<<

If the “insulation work” was to have been done in or from an area far removed from the strippers – probably, not much exposure. Or, if the work was to have been done in a building that would, when finished, become a Strip Club – probably, not much exposure. However,

if the Club is currently featuring strippers (and most Clubs begin offering 'entertainment' in the AM) – well, contact by sight, smell, touch, or other – is certainly very likely – and, as I’ve said, testosterone rules! and, imagination, at least, follows...

[Gerr]

And here's another question:

Should I, as a medical practitioner, be providing medical services to people who I know are pursuing immoral lifestyles or unethical business practices?

After all, they are using their health and strength to do what is wrong. Shall I give them more health and strength to abuse, so they can continue to do so?

I'm not talking about prescribing Viagra to a sex offender or the birth control pill to a promiscuous teenager. I mean just regular health care of the kind that keeps them healthy enough to do their daily work and pursue their chosen activities.

aldona

We are now in an area where each one has to wrestle with his/her own conscience. Early on, I decided I would treat all smokers, drunkards, and all those with self-inflicted sinful practices with all of my skill as a physician including AIDS. However, there is one issue that I have not brought myself to do, that is to abort a fetus or actively take the life of a suffering pt upon request. So, this may Olger's own abortion issue.

Gerry

[Parade Orange]

Not so many years ago I had a friend who rented a little country home not far from where I live. He is gay and kept the cottage immaculate(of course of course) and the landlords(nice elderly couple) adored him. He didnt have wild parties paid rent on time ect.

But to the old couple's horror they realized he was gay when He had a noticable gay guy coming over all the time and the tenant had no girlfriends.

O dear!

The lovely old couple got their way and they got their property freed of the homo.

They really liked him till they found out.

He didnt keep it from them he just was a private person and didnt broadcast it.

I dont know if the old couple were religious but I know many non religious people who are offended by it and and others down right hate homos.

some haters are drunks, whores and fornicators!

[Parade Orange]

Olger!!!!

BTW Thanku for sharing your experience and how God ended up using you.

amen and praise GOD.

when we earnestly seek HIS Face when faced with a dilemma I cant imagine having a wrong spirit.

When we seek God and and Find HIM and have a wrong spirit(?) you can be sure the spirit is righted!!!!!!!!!!

[olger]

The strip club wanted us to do the work at night right after they close and then clean up before they open at 3pm. There would be some overlap betwixt them & us.

The flex hotel wanted us to spray polyurea in the sauna room so they could cavort with greater aplomb.

I am at full peace with my decision. God is good.

Another thing. My oldest son said to me a couple days ago. "If we are called to that kind of work, then like David Wilkerson let us go, but there IS A clear difference between being called by God to such things and going to make money."

That was pretty good for a 23-year old, I thought.

g'night