Offshore Drilling a Potent Issue for McCain

[doctorj]

There are things that orindary people like you and I can do.

For a first thing, we can go and purchase a Hydrogen Car like that which Honda has now coming onto the market.

Second, we can minimise our energy consumption by driving at lower speeds, being careful with the gas pedal, turning off electric lights when not needed, turning off almost every electrical appliance in the house.

Third, we can buy less, for example, use our shoes for more than one season, use furniture in the home that will last, be careful on the number of trips we do in the car, use public transport thus reducing the amount of gas we buy, etc.

Fourth, we can be frugal with the amount of food we buy and reduce the amount of food we waste.

There are just so many things that we can do to minimise our energy consumption. AND believe this, America is one of the most wasteful nations on earth. I lived there for ten years and could not believe my eyes at the waste of food in restaurants, waste of food in ordinary homes, and absolute waste in the number of consumer goods purchased and then thrown out with little to no use.

Australia also has many wasteful habits imported from the USA. There is just such a lot of things that must be done to avoid energy consumption.

[Dr. Shane]

The average person cannot afford to go and buy a hydrogen vehicle. There is not a refueling infrastructure available yet even if everyone did have the money to buy such a vehicle. And how is this hydrogen acquired? I thought it took a lot of energy to acquire hydrogen.

We certainly can conserve energy (and should) however consuming energy is not in itself a sin. The problem is that when the sources of energy are polluting our environment. Some sources are worse than other sources.

Consumerism drives the economy. As Christians we certainly want to be on our guard against materialism but we can still be consumers and contribute to a healthy world-wide economy. The impact on the economy is the same weather I am buying myself 18 pairs of shoes or buying them for 18 orphans. If every world citizen cut back on the material goods and services they purchased it would result in major job losses, more hunger and more death.

[Denise]

Exactly Shane!

[Anderoo]

I think we should all just adopt an Amish lifestyle! lol

Seriously though, Relocalizing economies is a big thing we can all do. Stop shopping at Wal-Mart and support local businesses. Conservatives need to stop shying away from "liberal" issues such as alternative energy and the environment just because they have been championed by liberals. Liberals need to do the same thing. Drilling is going to happen no matter what. The tide of human greed/need is too great.

[Anderoo]

http://www.uruknet.de/?p=m45390&hd=&size=1&l=e

[carolaa]

Originally Posted By: carolaa

Somehow I don't think the increased revenues would be used to invest in alternative energy. In fact, I think that increased drilling would delay any sense of urgency and would postpone alternative developments.

The same government that has banned drilling off shore can make sure revenues generated by off-shore drilling are invested in alternative energy. I know that, but somehow I don't think they will do that. I could be wrong, but I'd be really surprised if it happened.

The real reason so many liberals do not want more drilling is because they fear it will lead to lower gas prices and thus Americans will not support alternative energy sources. I don't agree. I think the real reason liberals don't want more drilling is because of global warming. They believe fossil fuels contribute to or cause global warming. I think only the gullible believe more drilling will lead to lower gas prices.

In all our worry about saving sea turtles and dolphins we might want to remember that human beings in developing countries are dying because of the price of food caused by the price of oil. If drilling in ANWR saves the lives of thousands in Asia and Africa, would that be worth it? So we are going to save lives by continuing to destroy the earth.

if drilling off shore or in ANWR is going to increase our oil supply in the future that is going to impact what speculators are doing today. I understand how speculators work. You may have a point, I'm not sure.

[carolaa]

I read today that Bush halted all use of solar power on government land for at least 2 years.

Great news! I heard this report today:

US Reverses Moratorium on Solar Projects

The Bureau of Land Management has reversed a recently imposed moratorium on the construction of new solar energy projects on public land. Government officials had said they needed the freeze to study the solar projects’ environmental impact on land in Arizona, Nevada, California and other western states. Critics had warned the moratorium could have paralyzed the solar energy industry.

[carolaa]

Consumerism drives the economy. As Christians we certainly want to be on our guard against materialism but we can still be consumers and contribute to a healthy world-wide economy. The impact on the economy is the same weather I am buying myself 18 pairs of shoes or buying them for 18 orphans. If every world citizen cut back on the material goods and services they purchased it would result in major job losses, more hunger and more death.

Exactly. It's a house-of-cards economy based on consumerism. It looks to me like the issue is, do we save our economy or do we save the planet.

[Dr. Shane]

If a consumerism-based economy is a "house of cards" than it is a very old house made of very old cards, the wind must never blow and the foundation must be strong.

[Dr. Shane]

We don't know if we can stop global warming. All the carbon that we are releasing into the environment has been in the environment before. Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant. We don't even know what the effects of global warming will be. It is all speculation based on computer models.

Fossil fuels are not going away. Even when we have electric cars and nuclear power plants we are going to need to use fossil fuels for aircraft, heavy trucking and ship traffic. The need for these fuels is going to continue far into the future, likely until the Lord returns. Drilling more now is not going to hurt anything and it may well help.

[Anderoo]

Here is a fun little film that explains how the house of cards was made. Yes, the cards are very old but the foundation is made of sand. We all know the song...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9050474362583451279&q=money

[carolaa]

If a consumerism-based economy is a "house of cards" than it is a very old house made of very old cards, the wind must never blow and the foundation must be strong.

Are you kidding? The Federal Reserve is continually having to come in and tweak things to keep the juggling act going.

[Dr. Shane]

Economies have been consumer based since long before Jesus worked in Joseph's carpenter shop. If Joseph didn't have consumers buying his products and services than Jesus and Mary didn't have flour or fish on the table.

[carolaa]

Economies have been consumer based since long before Jesus worked in Joseph's carpenter shop. If Joseph didn't have consumers buying his products and services than Jesus and Mary didn't have flour or fish on the table.

That's basically true. The problem is that consumerism is now out of control, and it requires more tweaking and juggling all the time. I don't believe it's sustainable. Also, in Jesus' day, a trade or purchase was based on something real, whereas today our money is based mostly on good faith in the government, banks, or whatever (thin air?).

[Dr. Shane]

Now we are getting a little into apples and oranges. Consumerism and monetary policy are not the same thing. Consumerism drives the economy regardless if a nation is on the gold standard or not. Interest rates, lending laws and other monetary policies impact consumerism and thus the economy. One can make the argument that the Federal Reserve's monetary policy is a house of cards but that is not the same as saying that an economy built on consumerism is a house of cards.

Our economy has grown and our wealth has grown to the extent that consumerism has grown. Consumerism is much greater today than it was in Jesus' day and as a result we are wealthier and have a much larger economy. That is not a bad thing. Consumerism is the backbone of a strong economy.

Monetary policy in the days of Jesus was based on precious metals like gold, silver, copper and brass. Our monetary policy today is based on a number of factors such as supply and demand for the currency, interest rates, stability of the government issuing the currency and the currency's purchasing power. There are arguments that can be made in favor and against both systems

[doctorj]

Monetary policy in the days of Jesus was based on precious metals like gold, silver, copper and brass. Our monetary policy today is based on a number of factors such as supply and demand for the currency, interest rates, stability of the government issuing the currency and the currency's purchasing power. There are arguments that can be made in favor and against both systems

Thanks for the clarification. But adding to this, consumerism is not going to go away anytime soon. It is just how we bend consumerism to meet other obligations, such as how we build an economy around sustainable activities, in contrast to un-sustainable activities. We will still produce energy somehow -- through newer technologies, such as windfarming, solar panels etc., and we will sell that energy to people in industries that change the way they manufacture to make best use of the new sources of energy etc.

There are whole new industries that will arise from such change, and there will be some of the old industries that need to fall away and make room for newer industries.

I just don't see that off-shore drilling should be an option in the face of global warming and the environmental hazards that will eventuate. There are better ways of generating energy and the quicker we move to make them realities the better.

A few months ago I visited New Zealand, and in a place called Palmerston North they have a windfarm already built that produces enough enough energy for 30,000 homes. It is brilliant! And New Zealand are building more. More of this should be done to reduce our dependence on carbon fuels.

What about using technology that is already here. Run your car on water! There are lots of things that we can do right now to reduce our dependence on oil! There are more things that can be added here with a little research. If enough people get going and do these things we can make a difference.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

I just don't see that off-shore drilling should be an option in the face of global warming and the environmental hazards that will eventuate.

Global warming is happening. That is a consensus. What is not a consensus is what global warming will result in.

• We don't know what the results of global warming will be.
• Whatever the results are, we don't know how long it will take to realize them.
• What is being seen on the news and media reports is based on computer models. The same type of computer models are known to have been wrong in predicting the results of hurricanes.
• We don't know if there is anything humans can do to stop global warming.
• We know, from ice cores, that there has been global warming in the past long before fossil fuels were being burned.

We know for sure, without any doubt, that people are dying today for lack of food because of the price of oil. How many people do we let die today in our efforts to stop global warming? 10,000? 100,000? 500,000? 1,000,000? What is our effort to stop global warming worth in human lives?

By the time 50% of the world's population is driving electric cars and 50% of the world's electricity comes from clean sources untold thousands will have died due to hunger caused by the high price of oil. Alternative energy sources offer no hope for those dying of hunger in the immediate future. Drilling for more oil does.

[carolaa]

One can make the argument that the Federal Reserve's monetary policy is a house of cards but that is not the same as saying that an economy built on consumerism is a house of cards.

I'm not sure I get what you're saying. I see the monetary policy, the economy, and consumerism all working together. I don't see how they can be separated. Are not our policy tweaks based on the economy? The economy is based on consumerism. When consumerism goes up or down, then we have more policy tweaks. I see it all as precarious and not very stable. And most of all, it all depends on consumerism, and where does that end? You have to have higher and higher wages in order to consume more and more - in order to keep the economy going so you can have higher and higher wages.

[carolaa]

Alternative energy sources offer no hope for those dying of hunger in the immediate future. Drilling for more oil does.

You may be right about that. According to the World Bank, biofuels are the major cause of the world's food shortage.

[carolaa]

How many people do we let die today in our efforts to stop global warming? 10,000? 100,000? 500,000? 1,000,000? What is our effort to stop global warming worth in human lives?

Some would say it doesn't matter, because global warming is going to destroy the earth and we're all going to die, anyway.

[Dr. Shane]

I'm not sure I get what you're saying. I see the monetary policy, the economy, and consumerism all working together. I don't see how they can be separated.

Well I guess it can be compared to the body. The brain, heart, liver and stomach all each has its own role.

Consumerism is simply buying goods and services. When people buy goods and services other people have to be producing them. The more consumers consume the more producers must produce. As consumers increase the amount they consume producers must increase production. If production cannot keep up with demand, the price of the good or service will increase so as to decrease demand to the level of production. If production outpaces consumption it results in a supply of goods or services which causes the cost of the product to fall.

Monetary policy is the production and regulation of currency by a government. Money, like anything, only has value because it can be exchanged for something of real value. Gold and silver can be made into products but the value placed on them has more to do with the supply and demand for them. We see the value of gold and silver go up and down much the same way we see the value of world currencies or any commodity go up and down.

A healthy economy is one that grows slowly. If it grows too fast production is unable to keep up with demand and inflation results. If it grows to slow production outpaces consumption and deflation and unemployment result. Governments use monetary policy to try and keep the economy growing at a slow pace.

When it is growing too slow the decrease interest rates which allows banks to loan out more money which results in more money being placed into circulation. They may also lower taxes which allows more money to stay in the market.

When it is growing too fast they increase interest rates to slow down banks for making loans. They may also increase taxes. This serves to decrease the amount of currency in circulation or at least decrease that rate money is being added to the economy.

These are ways that governments try to control consumerism. Consumerism is not bad. It is essential to any economy. From a Christian perspective, materialism is bad because we end up making a god out of "stuff". However we can be responsible consumers without becoming materialistic. Spending our money in ways that help other people and help the gospel reach our communities and beyond is still consumerism. But it is good consumerism. It serves a noble purpose while creating jobs and driving the economy.

[Dr. Shane]

Originally Posted By: Shane

How many people do we let die today in our efforts to stop global warming? 10,000? 100,000? 500,000? 1,000,000? What is our effort to stop global warming worth in human lives?

Some would say it doesn't matter, because global warming is going to destroy the earth and we're all going to die, anyway.

That is speculative. We don't know what the results of global warming will be. We only have computer models which have proven themselves wrong in predicting hurricanes and other weather patterns. Certainly the affects of global warming will be gradual and give humans time to relocate and adjust as needed.

My point is this:

Death from global warming is not conclusive. It is something we are unsure about.

Death from the high price of oil is conclusive. It is something that is happening even today.

[doctorj]

From a biblical perspective we know the earth is coming to an end -- and hopefully this will be very soon. But in the meantime does this suggest that we should not really care about how we mis-use the environment? Does this mean that we go ahead and do destructive things to the planet?

We are called to be good stewards of what God has given us. We should live as though there is no tomorrow, but at the same time, we need to live a life that is sustainable.

I believe that we should support those who act in a sustainable manner, one that makes your and my footprints on this earth as small as possible. This means personally we should be driving less, using less oil, being frugal in the way we live, giving to the poor, supporting policies of governments that bring about less pollution, and greater stability in the use of earth's resources.

No? Or should we just not care because we know the time of the end is soon?

[carolaa]

If we don't care, we are being very foolish, as God is coming to "destroy the destroyers of the earth."

[Dr. Shane]

Carbon dioxide is not a pollutant. Even though it may be the cause of global warming, that doesn't make it a pollutant. Putting more carbon dioxide into the environment is not destroying the planet. Global warming is not destroying the planet - it is changing the planet in a way we fear will be bad for coastlines and other low areas.

People are dying in developing countries for lack of food while those in developed countries try to figure out if we should drill for more oil or not.