Jesus and God the Father

[Fausto]

I've come acroos quite a few theorized presentations, denying the trinity, and calling it a dangerous doctrine.

However I must say I'm perprelexed as some verses indicate a possible subjection.

Quote:

Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Pro 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

Pro 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

Pro 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

Pro 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

Pro 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

Then this confuses me quite a bit:

Quote:

1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Yet I agree that Jesus had to show us a Father-son relationship so that we could emulate Him and do likewise!

Opinions?

[John317]

I've come acroos quite a few theorized presentations, denying the trinity, and calling it a dangerous doctrine.

However I must say I'm perprelexed as some verses indicate a possible subjection.

Quote:

Pro 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Pro 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Pro 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

Pro 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

Pro 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

Pro 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

Pro 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

Pro 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

Pro 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

It is obviously not a literal description of anyone, least of all Jesus Christ. If one reads Proverbs 8:1 and 9: 1-4, one discovers that Wisdom is personified as a woman. Of course, Christ is no woman. There are certain aspects of it that apply to Christ but you can't apply everything in those verses in a literal sense to Him. This is the way it is with all poetry. One might compare one's girl friend or wife to a rose, but you never want to take poetry too literally or you can come up with some very strange understandings.

Our friends, the "Jehovah's Witnesses," being Arians, also have a problem understanding these verses.

[John317]

Then this confuses me quite a bit:

Quote:

1Jn 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Yet I agree that Jesus had to show us a Father-son relationship so that we could emulate Him and do likewise!

Opinions?

Not sure why these verses confuse you but perhaps it is verse 7. The words, "the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost," do not appear in any ancient Greek manuscripts. They only appear in two manuscripts and those are very late, about the 14th century AD. They were certainly not part of the original manuscript as the Apostle John wrote it. It worked its way into the King James Version because it was based largely on the Greek text of Erasmus, who adopted the text as we have it in verse 7 only because he made a promise to include it if he was shown some manuscripts with that verse in it. He did not think they would be able to show him such evidence, but they found two late manuscripts that included that verse.

The correct reading of verses 7,8 is as follows:

7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

There are many verses in the Bible that support the doctrine of the Trinity. 1 John 5: 7,8 is not needed for this purpose.