New Theology

[rush4hire]

Thanks Keven_H. That was very insightful. So basically, you're saying New Theology is evil, but the way some are going about refuting it is a travesty, like throwing water on a grease fire..

I didn't mean to get defensive. It looked like you where suggesting that I should get my money back for my theology degree and go to whatever school you're going to. But if Paul can say it, so can I. My doctrine came from God, not from men:

[color:#BF0000]Gal. 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught [it], but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

I agree that so much focus on the nature of Christ is not necessary. It's an open and shut case. Jesus didn't have the nature of Adam before the fall or after the fall. That's corny. If He did, he would have grown to 12 feet tall, and if that where the case it would have surely been mentioned somewhere in the gospels.

He had our nature. He overcame sin in our flesh, so we don't have an excuse.

So what advantage did Christ have? A sense of purpose. He was the Messiah. If he would have failed, this whole thing would have never existed, and God would have swept it under the rug and no one would have known about it ever and He would have started all over.

But Christ was lined up to succeed. God set Him up with everything He needed. He had a good mom and dad and the Scriptures which His life fulfilled, and the nation of Israel, and even his brothers to pick on Him growing up so He wouldn't fit in and be tempted, but would have to spend much time alone with God in prayer and Bible study. Ya, Jesus had some advantages. The wise men gave Him gold, frankincense and myrrh. No wise men gave my parents such things!

So I have an excuse to sin. But I don't have an excuse to keep sinning for the rest of my life. If Jesus overcame in my flesh, I can overcome in my flesh too. I can have a strong sense of purpose. I can imagine what if I had to be the Messiah and be offered as a sacrifice. What if the salvation of mankind depended on whether I gave into the temptations of Satan or resisted? Actually it does to some degree. If I sin, I can't help other people be saved. And those people God had lined out for me to witness to will be lost because I took the selfish course and was seduced by the world. Ya, alot is riding on our decisions. So we can continue developing our relationship with God through the Word and prayer and sharing our faith and we won't have time to sin. Satan can say "hey wanna sin?" and we can say "What? I'm busy. Whatever you need, try again next week." And keep blowing him off and keep focusing on the whatever thing God has for us to do at the time and keep an eye on our ultimate ambitions of glorifying our God like when Solomon built his temple, and like when Ezra and Nehemiah and crew kept focus on their temple and city. You suppose they thought much about sin when they where involved in such an important work?

And what are we building?

[color:#BF0000]Isaiah 58:12 And [they that shall be] of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath...

The accusation NT makes against God are horrendous. They accuse Christ of leading people to sin. Self-love is a sin, but what is self-love? They say that if we follow Jesus it's out of self-love, and even serving the Lord is a sin.

Jesus said "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men", (Matt. 4:19).

Jesus said "...lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven", (Matt. 6:20).

Jesus said "In my Father's house are many mansions... I go to prepare a place for you.", (John 14:2).

Jesus said "...whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister, and whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all", (Mark 10:44).

Is Jesus leading us to sin? Then He would be an accomplice to sin. Therefore wanting treasure and mansions in heaven, or to be fishers of men, or even to be chief among our brethren, is not a sin, or you charge Christ with sin.

I'm sure Ellen White got the concept of "self-love" from the Bible:

[color:#BF0000]2 Tim. 3:2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

3:3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,

3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

That's what self-love is. That's what she's talking about. It's pride related as you can see in the context. When people come to Christ. they see the beauty of His spotless character and they are humble. They abhore their self-love and they work it out so they overcome it. They learn from the Master how to be self-sacrificing and self-denying.

Quote:

"There remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength." Daniel 10:8. The soul thus touched will hate its selfishness, abhor its self-love, and will seek, through Christ's righteousness, for the purity of heart that is in harmony with the law of God and the character of Christ. {SC 29.2}

Those who come to Christ are those who are becoming Christians, not the saints who have come to Christ a long time ago. We don't keep coming to Christ and leaving Him. We abide in Him, (1 John 2:27,28).

Ellen White was not suggesting that Daniel had a self-love. She's just saying that if Daniel walked with God all his life, (being aged by chapter 10), and yet when the Lord drew near, he abhorred himself, and the same with all the prophets of God, even Job after 150 years of walking with God, (more on Job later..), then HOW MUCH MORE should a common sinner be willing to humble himself before God when he comes to Christ.

Anyone with self-love is not converted:

Quote:

And all who would bring forth fruit as workers together with Christ must first fall into the ground and die. The life must be cast into the furrow of the world's need. Self-love, self-interest, must perish. {COL 86.3}

Those who are filled with self-esteem and self-love do not feel the need of a living, personal union with Christ. {COL 162.1}

Their self-love, their love of popularity and love of praise, exclude the Saviour from their hearts {COL 162.1}

Shall not the workers in the Sabbath school divest themselves of all pride and self-love, and heartily and sincerely become doers of the word? {CSW 106.2}

Selfishness destroys Christ likeness, filling man with self-love. It leads to continual departure from righteousness. Christ says, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." But self-love is blind to the perfection which God requires. . . {CS 24.3}

Those are only the first few out of 250 quotes with the tern "self-love".

If you want to be a disciple of Christ, you can't love yourself more than God. But when NT disciples point their fingers at their brethren charging them with "self-love" and saying they will never overcome that and it would be better if they would admit to it, that's what reminded me of Job and his friends:

[color:#BF0000]Job 8:20 Behold, God will not cast away a perfect [man], neither will he help the evil doers:

11:14 If iniquity [be] in thine hand, put it far away, and let not wickedness dwell in thy tabernacles.

11:15 For then shalt thou lift up thy face without spot; yea, thou shalt be stedfast, and shalt not fear:

They even imagined specific sins:

[color:#BF0000]Job 22:5 [is] not thy wickedness great? and thine iniquities infinite?

22:6 For thou hast taken a pledge from thy brother for nought, and stripped the naked of their clothing.

22:7 Thou hast not given water to the weary to drink, and thou hast withholden bread from the hungry.

22:8 But [as for] the mighty man, he had the earth; and the honourable man dwelt in it.

22:9 Thou hast sent widows away empty, and the arms of the fatherless have been broken.

22:10 Therefore snares [are] round about thee, and sudden fear troubleth thee;

They didn't have any evidence at all. It was just their theory that said if a man suffers like that, God must be punishing him for his sins. Similarly the prophets of New Theology keep telling us we have been committing sin and thus make false accusations.

Job's friends urged him to just confess his sins and it would all go away. But Job didn't have any sins to confess. If he said he did, he would have been lying. He hadn't committed one sin since he was a youth:

[color:#BF0000] 13:26 For thou writest bitter things against me, and makest me to possess the iniquities of my youth.

If the Devil wanted to dig something up on him, he would have to go back to his childhood. How pitiful. Job was a perfect man and God's greatest representative in all the earth. That's what God said: Job 1:1,8; 2:3

He was too busy representing Christ on earth, constantly taking care of the needs of others.

[color:#BF0000]Job 29:12 Because I delivered the poor that cried, and the fatherless, and [him that had] none to help him.

29:13 The blessing of him that was ready to perish came upon me: and I caused the widow's heart to sing for joy.

29:15 I was eyes to the blind, and feet [was] I to the lame.

29:16 I [was] a father to the poor: and the cause [which] I knew not I searched out.

Job was the master of pure and undefiled religion:

[color:#BF0000] James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world.

That hedge was too many layers thick for Satan to get through. There where too many thankful widows praying for him too. And in order for you to sin, Satan has to get through. No one sins, but at the enticements of Satan, for "..He that committeth sin is of the devil", (1 John 3:8). And the promise is given for us to claim and not to deny:

[color:#BF0000] James 4:7 .. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you.

Resist the Devil with the Word, the Sword of the Spirit like Jesus did.

[color:#BF0000]Psalms 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

Draw near to God by doing the things God delights in:

[color:#BF0000]Isaiah 58:6 [is] not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke?

58:7 [is it] not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh?

Amen.

[John317]

Good exchanges on this thread, Kevin and Rush. I am really busy now or I would take part, too. So I will just read for now and enjoy it that way until I have more time to devote to writing.

Keep up the great attitudes!

[Kevin H]

I'm not so sure about calling the Neo-Lutherans (or new theology) evil, nor would I call the so called "Historic Adventists" evil, only that they both have a tendency of using a portion of the truth as an excuse to reject other, and interestingly in the fields that interest time they have tended to (with a very gagged edge, not nicely 50% 50%) both have some very important truths that they have built man made traditons on, and these truths tend to be what the other tends to shy away from.

[John317]

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1. Sin: Is it choice or nature. (The New Theology says it is nature.)

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Both. (yes I need to go into detail here, but as I said this is a rough draft and sadly don't have the time to edit much: However, the New Theology is so focused on the sinful nature that they do not realize the importance of free will and choice and victory, but some new theology opponents need to study more into what the Bible and Mrs. White teach about what the sinful nature is. It is comparable to the alocholic who starts to attend A. A. or the smoker who has just given up smoking. The New Theology's attitude would be similar to saying to the Alocholic "Since you can't stop being an alocholic, don't worry about drinking." and some new theology opponents end up with an attitude similar to "ok, you stoped drinking so forget about it."

The sinfulnature is a disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world, to esteam ourselves more highly than our brethern. We usually do this by somehow dissmissing and littling others, or trying to control and manipulate them. The solution is "When we love the world as he [Jesus] has loved it, then for us his mission is accomplished; we are fitted for heaven for we have heaven in our hearts." We are sinners because we have the tendency to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world, and these selfish motives have a craving on us similar to the craving of alochol on the alocholic or tobacco on the chronic smoker. We have the choice to either allow the sinful nature to control us, or to criticizise it and oppose it in ourselves and look to Jesus and choose to try to love the world as Jesus has loved it. But even our desire and choice to turn to Jesus to go to heaven is tinged with selfishness.)

The bottom line for me is that, with the Holy Spirit, believers are enabled to obey or keep or observe the commandments of God. I believe that we are empowered to resist and overcome all sin, including sinful tendencies with which we are born.

Of course, it goes without saying that only the person who has faith in Christ and has been born of God can obey God's will.

(Do believers sin and fall? Yes. That is dealt with in 1 John 1:5 to 2: 1-2.)

The danger with saying that no one can really obey God's will is that this teaching is really an attack on the whole purpose of the raising up of this church, which is to prepare the world for the Second Coming of Christ. An important part of that preparation is giving glory to God and worshipping Him, which we cannot possibly do without also obeying Him. This preparation leads to a group who keep the commandments of God.

The Bible plainly says there are people who keep the commandments of God. Anyone who teaches that this it is impossible to keep the commandments is contradicting plain scripture such as in Rev. 12 and 14 and 1 John 2: 3,4; 3: 1-10; 5: 2,3. Whether they know it or not, they are siding with Satan in the great controversy, because he is the one who accuses God of having a law that humanity is totally incapable of obeying.

We can define sin in such a way as to say it is utterly impossible for anyone even with the Holy Spirit to obey God. I believe that is false doctrine. It makes our sinfulness and our natures such a slave to sin that even God has no power. This contradicts Romans 6 and 8.

(The man of Romans 7 is not the model for the Christian since he is under conviction of the Spirit but does not have the Holy Spirit either dwelling in him or leading him. Compare Romans 7: 13-24 with 8:1-9.)

"This is the will of God, your sanctification." Sanctification in the Biblical sense is both instantaneous when we accept Christ into our lives and surrender totally to Him-- being set apart for His holy purposes-- and it is an ongoing process that occurs over a whole lifetime. Both are equally God's will.

[Robert]

New Theology, (NT), is the teaching that you will continue to sin until you die or until Jesus comes. Is this a reformation from the Lord, or doctrines of devils?

I guess EGW was part of the New Theology because she stated that as long as life lasted that there would be no stopping point where we could say that we have arrived. Other statements say the same....

By emphasizing this perfectionist theory you are inadvertently teaching legalism....Focus on Jesus and let things take care of themselves. In Him you are complete!

Rob

[Robert]

We can define sin in such a way as to say it is utterly impossible for anyone even with the Holy Spirit to obey God.

[Robert]

On the topic of "self-love", here's another challenge:

[color:#BF0000]Matt. 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Some have claimed that this verse means that God understands that we will never overcome the sin of "self-love". I think this is a different kind of self-love.

I'm not interested in "I think" - I'm interested in the facts. If you have any questions to what Matt 22:39 means then look at the life of Christ. Show me where He was selfish. Show me self-love...I can show you the opposite (not self-hate), but rather self-renouncing love - that love which is not self-seeking.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: rush4hire

New Theology, (NT), is the teaching that you will continue to sin until you die or until Jesus comes. Is this a reformation from the Lord, or doctrines of devils?

I guess EGW was part of the New Theology because she stated that as long as life lasted that there would be no stopping point where we could say that we have arrived. Other statements say the same....

By emphasizing this perfectionist theory you are inadvertently teaching legalism....Focus on Jesus and let things take care of themselves. In Him you are complete!

Rob

It's true there will be no stopping point where we can say we have arrived. That is true. But let's read on.

Since you quote Ellen White here as an authority, you will want to read other statements related to the topic:

In all His Godlike deeds, the world's Redeemer declares, "I can of mine own self do nothing." "This commandment have I received of my Father." John 5:30; 10:18. All I do is in fulfillment of the counsel and will of My heavenly Father. The history of the daily earthly life of Jesus is the exact record of the fulfillment of the purposes of God toward man. His life and character were the unfolding or representation of the perfection of the character that man may attain by becoming a partaker of the divine nature, and overcoming the world through daily conflicts.The Faith I Live By (1958), page 114, paragraph 3

All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life. The Lord declares, by the prophet Isaiah: "I, even I, am He that blotteth out thy transgressions for Mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins." Isaiah 43:25. Said Jesus: "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels." "Whosoever therefore shall confess Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny Me before men, him will I also deny before My Father which is in heaven." Revelation 3:5; Matthew 10:32, 33. GC 483

[Robert]

Anyway for centuries the church argued and studied about the nature of Jesus and eventually came to the understanding that Jesus had his own unique nature, with similaities to both Adam before and after the fall, but cannot be fully equated to either view, and would unite how totally human Jesus became yet how sinless and divine Jesus was.

This isn't complicated at all....Jesus is God. His nature is agape...after all the Bible says, "God is agape". Agape is not just simply an attribute, agape is who God is....

So Christ's nature is Holy...it is selfless...it is self-renouncing. He lives not for Himself...He lives to serve....He lives for you....That's the deity of Christ....

At the incarnation, Jesus as God, assumed the fallen human race that needed redeeming. God did this by uniting the sinless deity of Christ with our fallen, self-loving, humanity that needed redeeming.

You see having a sinful human nature makes you a sinner in and of itself. IF you say Christ HAD a sinful nature, you make Him a sinner.

Note how EGW ties our fallen nature with sin:

We cannot say, "I am sinless," till this vile body is changed and fashioned like unto His glorious body. But if we constantly seek to follow Jesus, the blessed hope is ours of standing before the throne of God without spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; complete [where? in our performance? No,] in Christ, robed in His righteousness and perfection.-- Signs of the Times,March 23, 1888.

[Robert]

their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God

"The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts." [EGW]

I see "character" as a mindset, not necessarily performance. Paul brings this out in Romans 6:6

For we know that our old self [our old life from Adam] was crucified with him [Christ] so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

Now the above is talking about our position "in Christ". Literally "in Christ" our humanity was freed from the power sin because it died. A dead person can't sin....

Now Paul takes this truth and applies to the Christian's mindset:

10 The death he [Christ] died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11 In the same way, count [consider] yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

That's mindset....Not performance. Yes, your mindset...your character will lead to performance, but not perfection....

Why?

“But ‘might be fulfilled’ is not to be taken to imply that the faithful fulfil the law’s requirement perfectly. Chapter 7 must not be forgotten. They fulfil it in the sense that they do have a real faith in God (which is the law’s basic demand), in the sense that their lives are definitely turned in the direction of obedience, that they do sincerely desire to obey and are earnestly striving to advance ever nearer to perfection. But, so long as they remain in this present life, their faith is always in some measure mixed with unbelief, their obedience is always imperfect and incomplete. And this means of course that there can never be any question of their being able to make their new obedience a claim of God.”

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17-- (The man of Romans 7 ... does not have the Holy Spirit either dwelling in him or leading him.

This has been proven utterly false. The man of Romans 7 is converted. His problem is that he's failing to keep the spirit of the law (you shall love your neighbor as you love yourself).

For one he is trying, in his own effort, to use his will power to defeat the flesh. To grow he needs to learn to allow the Spirit to take control of his nature. Then growth into the spiritual realm of the law can advance....

But if we go by Romans 8: 1-17, as well as 1 John 3:9, it becomes obvious that the man of Romans 7 does not have the Holy Spirit in his life. Compare what those verses say as to what happens in a person's life when they have the Holy Spirit. None of those things are in the life of the man of Romans 7. 1 John 3: 9 says plainly that if we are born of God and have His seed in us, we will not continue to practice sin.

The man of Romans 7 cannot stop committing sin. He is practicing evil and cannot stop it. This is not the mark of a man born of the Spirit.

Romans 8: 1-17 makes the same point. The man of Romans 7 is in the flesh, not in the Spirit. He is living according to the flesh.

See especially Romans 8: 4-9 and compare and contrast the two descriptions: first the man of the Spirit of Romans 8, and second, the description of the carnal man in Romans 7: 14-24.

I believe the evidence is that the man of Romans 7 is one whom the Holy Spirit has convicted. He appears to have first accepted Christ in the last verse of Romans 7. He is hungering for salvation, but he does not accept salvation through Christ until Romans 7: 25. It is then that he is justified and receives the Holy Spirit, at which point he begins the life in the Spirit which is described in the remaining verses of Romans 8.

[John317]

Note how EGW ties our fallen nature with sin:

We cannot say, "I am sinless," till this vile body is changed and fashioned like unto His glorious body. But if we constantly seek to follow Jesus, the blessed hope is ours of standing before the throne of God without spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; complete [where? in our performance? No,] in Christ, robed in His righteousness and perfection.-- Signs of the Times,March 23, 1888.

Since you are quoting Ellen White here, what does Ellen White say the robe of Christ's righteousness is? Is it legal justification? Do all have on the robe of Christ's righteousness who have ever claimed to have accepted Christ?

What does it mean to have the robe on?

She says in COL that it is imparted righteousness; changed characters due to the Holy Spirit in our lives. It is not something God puts over sins that people continue to practice. It is not hiding our sins that we love and keep committing.

The New Theology makes the mistake of saying the robe of Christ's righteousness is simply forensic justification and is completely unrelated to a change of character that results from a personal, daily, faith-based relationship with Jesus Christ.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God

"The character is revealed, not by occasional good deeds and occasional misdeeds, but by the tendency of the habitual words and acts." [EGW]

I see "character" as a mindset, not necessarily performance. Paul brings this out in Romans 6:6

For we know that our old self [our old life from Adam] was crucified with him [Christ] so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

Now the above is talking about our position "in Christ". Literally "in Christ" our humanity was freed from the power sin because it died. A dead person can't sin....

Now Paul takes this truth and applies to the Christian's mindset:

10 The death he [Christ] died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11 In the same way, count [consider] yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

That's mindset....Not performance. Yes, your mindset...your character will lead to performance, but not perfection....

Why?

“But ‘might be fulfilled’ is not to be taken to imply that the faithful fulfil the law’s requirement perfectly. Chapter 7 must not be forgotten. They fulfil it in the sense that they do have a real faith in God (which is the law’s basic demand), in the sense that their lives are definitely turned in the direction of obedience, that they do sincerely desire to obey and are earnestly striving to advance ever nearer to perfection. But, so long as they remain in this present life, their faith is always in some measure mixed with unbelief, their obedience is always imperfect and incomplete. And this means of course that there can never be any question of their being able to make their new obedience a claim of God.”

We're pretty much in agreement here on the things you've said, Jack-- oh, I mean Rob.

By the way, do you have Jack S.'s, Christ Speaks To Laodicea? I just found it in my library where I had forgotten I put it a few years ago.

[John317]

We cannot say, "I am sinless," till this vile body is changed and fashioned like unto His glorious body. But if we constantly seek to follow Jesus, the blessed hope is ours of standing before the throne of God without spot or wrinkle, or any such thing; complete [where? in our performance? No,] in Christ, robed in His righteousness and perfection.-- Signs of the Times,March 23, 1888.

That is true about no one being able to say, "I am sinless," until Christ changes us at the Second Coming.

But let's talk about the robe of Christ's righteousness. New Theology sees it a lot differently than did Ellen White.

Compare the quote above with other, related statements by the same author concerning the robe of Christ's righteousness:

By the king's examination of the guests at the feast is represented a work of judgment. The guests at the gospel feast are those who profess to serve God, those whose names are written in the book of life. But not all who profess to be Christians are true disciples. Before the final reward is given, it must be decided who are fitted to share the inheritance of the righteous. This decision must be made prior to the second coming of Christ in the clouds of heaven; for when He comes, His reward is with Him, "to give every man according as his work shall be." Rev. 22:12. Before His coming, then, the character of every man's work will have been determined, and to every one of Christ's followers the reward will have been apportioned according to his deeds.

It is while men are still dwelling upon the earth that the work of investigative judgment takes place in the courts of heaven. The lives of all His professed followers pass in review before God. All are examined according to the record of the books of heaven, and according to his deeds the destiny of each is forever fixed.

By the wedding garment in the parable is represented the pure, spotless character which Christ's true followers will possess. To the church it is given "that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white," "not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing." Eph. 5:27. The fine linen, says the Scripture, "is the righteousness of saints." Rev. 19:8. It is the righteousness of Christ, His own unblemished character, that through faith is imparted to all who receive Him as their personal Saviour. COL 310

Christ in His humanity wrought out a perfect character, and this character He offers to impart to us. "All our righteousness are as filthy rags." Isa. 64:6. Everything that we of ourselves can do is defiled by sin. But the Son of God "was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin." Sin is defined to be "the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:5, 4. But

Christ was obedient to every requirement of the law. He said of Himself, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God; yea, Thy law is within My heart." Ps. 40:8. When on earth, He said to His disciples, "I have kept My Father's commandments." John 15:10. By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God's commandments. When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah.

The guests at the marriage feast were inspected by the king. Only those were accepted who had obeyed his requirements and put on the wedding garment. So it is with the guests at the gospel feast. All must pass the scrutiny of the great King, and only those are received who have put on the robe of Christ's righteousness.

Righteousness is right doing, and it is by their deeds that all will be judged. Our characters are revealed by what we do. The works show whether the faith is genuine. COL 311, 312

[LifeHiscost]

Righteousness is right doing, and it is by their deeds that all will be judged. Our characters are revealed by what we do. The works show whether the faith is genuine. COL 311, 312

I have no problem with this statement in that it is understood it is those righteous deeds accomplished in us by Jesus in which we are we are judged. The unrighteous deeds that were part of our experience receieved judgement in punishment in the Person of Christ on the cross, sins continuously cleansed by the blood of Jesus to all who receive Him as their present Savior, and in which He still suffers at present failures requiring moral cleansing.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Hebrews 6:4-6 KJV

And I would like to suggest, the underlined above is not talking about the person who finds himself failing his Father miserably, but is rather referring to one who chooses to join the enemy of God's children in opposition to His wishes to save whosoever will come to Him in repentance.

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9 NKJV

Regards!

[John317]

Yes, indeed. I totally agree. Thanks for those badly needed clarifications. I think sometimes the very things you mention are misunderstood. We often wrongly assume people understand those things when they don't at all. So again, many thanks.

[LifeHiscost]

Yes, indeed. I totally agree. Thanks for those badly needed clarifications. I think sometimes the very things you mention are misunderstood. We often wrongly assume people understand those things when they don't at all. So again, many thanks.

Perhaps if I didn't need those clarifications so much myself, it wouldn't be personally felt to be so important. So you're welcome, John, however the praise is rightfully only the Lord's, of which I'm aware you're fully cognizant.

Blessings!

[rush4hire]

I have to say I really appreciate the quotes, John317. I just hate to say I'm not sure what you meant about "the man of Romans 7". It was my understanding that it was a dramatization of a common experience of anyone who comes to Christ in full humility and surrender and has put away all the deeds of the flesh that he can see.

Then he receives rest:

[color:#BF0000]Romans 7:8 ...For without the law sin [was] dead.

7:9 For I was alive without the law once..

Then when he is ready the Holy Ghost shows him something else:

[color:#BF0000]Romans 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. ....

7:9 ....but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

7:10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.

7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me].

In this case it's covetousness:

[color:#BF0000]Romans 7:7 What shall we say then? [is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

There's some kind of thought or behaviour pattern he doesn't discern as wrong until he receives light on the subject. I'm not sure this would mean he's not converted.

Is he living in sin? No. It says that he's not sinning, but it's sin that's in him is sinning.

[color:#BF0000]Romans 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that [it is] good.

7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but [how] to perform that which is good I find not.

7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

He wants to do the right thing but he can't. He has no control over it. His flesh is acting up like the spasms of a dead man.

This is a terrifying experience that perhaps all of us are familiar with. I believe the purpose is to show us how serious sin is, and without God's grace, we have no power at all to overcome sin.

That doesn't mean that "the man of Romans 7" never got the victory. I believe he eventually did, but God allowed him to suffer for a time so he'll know sin is no joke. This is ironic because some seem to get the opposite message, that sin is not so offensive to God the He can't allow us to continue in sin until we get some kind of lobotomy at the Second Coming.

Such a revelation as Romans 7 is meant for our edification and comfort and I'm glad we can agree that it's not to be twisted around to support some weird wind of doctrine.