Do the ends justify the means...or 'Postmodernist Thought'....

[Reddogs]

Do the ends justify the means...or 'Postmodernist Thought'....

We are living today under a system of morals that Joseph Fletcher termed, "The New Morality" or "Situation Ethics." Fletcher stated, "There is no absolute right or wrong, but the situation determines morality." In other words, the end justifies the means. In his Guide to Contemporary Culture, Gene Veith provides a useful summary of postmodernist thought. He explains that for postmodernists, morality is a matter of desire. ‘What I want and what I choose is not only true (for me) but right (for me). That different people want and choose different things means that truth and morality are relative, but “I have a right” to my desires. Conversely, “no one has the right” to criticise my desires and my choices. Although postmodernists tend to reject traditional morality, they can still be very moralistic. They will defend their “rights” to do whatever they want.

Even politicians have applied this 'Postmodernist Thought', Bill Clinton thought anything he chose to do could be justified using legalities. I came across a article by Jonah Goldberg which hits on this theme with current Presidential candidate, Barack Obama, called 'Obama, the postmodernist'. He says, 'In the Illinois senator’s world, words have no fixed meaning, and truth is often just a matter of perspective. Asked to define sin, Barack Obama replied that sin is "being out of alignment with my values." But we have to ask ourselves, were are these values derived from.

In the article the author continues saying "'Postmodernists' hold that there is no such thing as capital-T "Truth." There are only lower-case "truths.".. and reality is "socially constructed." They claim to liberate society from fixed meanings and rigid categories, but it is invariably used to impose new ones, usually in the form of political correctness. In postmodernist thinking, meaning is not discovered in the objective world; rather, meaning is a purely human phenomenon. Because there is no ready made meaning to life, individuals can create meaning for themselves. ‘Since everyone creates his or her own meaning, every meaning is equally valid. Religion becomes a purely private affair, which cannot be imposed on anyone else.

Furthermore, postmodernist seem to feel they have a right not to be criticized for what they are doing. They want not only licence but also approval. Thus tolerance becomes the cardinal virtue… postmodernist sins are “being judgmental”, “being narrow-minded”, “thinking that you have the only truth”, and “trying to enforce your values on anyone else”. Those who question the postmodernist dogma that “there are no absolutes” are excluded from the canons of tolerance. The only wrong idea is to believe in truth; the only sin is to believe in sin. God and his Law is excluded, in fact He is dead to them in other set their standard of morality.

They use 'situation ethics' to justify the postmodernist version of 'truth', whatever they decide it is depending on the house of cards of ethical thought they have constructed. Moral values, like other kinds of meaning, are created by the self. For them, the ends do justify the means, and only they are the deciders of morality, as God is swept aside.

[Gail]

So...

How does this affect your methods of witnessing to this group?

[GiveHimGlory]

I thought LIFE.Development embraced (at least some of) postmodernism?

Are you saying it is all wrong? Have you read anything by Jon Paulien? Do you agree with any of it?

[Taylor]

life.development is trying very hard to reach postmoderns without loosing the uniqueness of our message. From what I have heard I think they are doing a great job at trying to be open minded and seek for ways to reach these people without compromising truth.

[there buster]

The Gospel confronts all cultures, including our own. Yup, postmodernism has some real problems. But so does modernism -- the one it's replacing.

Telling postmoderns what's wrong with their philosophy is not difficult, but gets you nowhere. They just stop listening. It's not the severity of sin, but the goodness of God that leads to repentance. Soooo---

I concentrate on helping postmoderns find solutions to their perceived needs. that used to be the definition of evangelism at the Seminary.

[Gerr]

Do the ends justify the means...or 'Postmodernist Thought'....

We are living today under a system of morals that Joseph Fletcher termed, "The New Morality" or "Situation Ethics." Fletcher stated, "There is no absolute right or wrong, but the situation determines morality."

If the end does not justify the means, what does?

It's been awhile since I read Fletcher's "Situation Ethics," but my recollection is that he recognizes one absolute, and that is, the law of love. I believe he is correct in this. For example: the command to cease from labor on the Sabbath is NOT absolute. The law of love may compel me to work on the Sabbath to bring comfort and healing or even save a life on the Sabbath.

The two [love to God & love to man] are absolutes; the ten [10 commandments & all other commandments that stem from them] may or may not be so absolute.

Gerry

[Reddogs]

Originally Posted By: Reddogs

Do the ends justify the means...or 'Postmodernist Thought'....

We are living today under a system of morals that Joseph Fletcher termed, "The New Morality" or "Situation Ethics." Fletcher stated, "There is no absolute right or wrong, but the situation determines morality."

If the end does not justify the means, what does?

It's been awhile since I read Fletcher's "Situation Ethics," but my recollection is that he recognizes one absolute, and that is, the law of love. I believe he is correct in this. For example: the command to cease from labor on the Sabbath is NOT absolute. The law of love may compel me to work on the Sabbath to bring comfort and healing or even save a life on the Sabbath.

The two [love to God & love to man] are absolutes; the ten [10 commandments & all other commandments that stem from them] may or may not be so absolute.

Gerry

So if granny needs a operation and has no money, I can justify the use of 'deadly force' and find my way to rob a bank to get granny what she needs...hey 'situation ethics' and loving my granny come hand in hand, and 'voila', my actions and means to a end are justified.......

The 'Bill Clinton' Center for Justifying your Actions says 'You've done fine, son', and everybody goes home happy......or do they, anyone see a problem here.....

[Taylor]

The Gospel confronts all cultures, including our own. Yup, postmodernism has some real problems. But so does modernism -- the one it's replacing.

Telling postmoderns what's wrong with their philosophy is not difficult, but gets you nowhere. They just stop listening. It's not the severity of sin, but the goodness of God that leads to repentance. Soooo---

I concentrate on helping postmoderns find solutions to their perceived needs. that used to be the definition of evangelism at the Seminary.

That is what I like about the GC program to reach postmoderns. They recognize the "trends" and "thoughts" and so they have catered their program to reach them where they are. There is no judging or making them feel badly...just presenting the gospel in a way that they can get excited about Jesus. I think it is wonderful that our church is trying to find a way to reach them!

[BibleShockers]

>>>...So if granny needs a operation and has no money, I can justify the use of 'deadly force' and find my way to rob a bank to get granny what she needs...hey 'situation ethics' and loving my granny come hand in hand, and 'voila', my actions and means to a end are justified.......

I think you are creating a straw man. The point is not that if an end is good then it justifies any and all means.

I heartily recommend Charles Finney's Systematic Theology as it presents an incredibly perceptive examination of the true basis of morality.

Just Google it.

Bill Ross

[John317]

Let me know some pointers in witnessing to postmoderns because my friend of 30+ years is one. We hardly ever discuss religion. He thinks everything he wants to do is OK. He asks questions like, Does God like to [have sex]?" That's a deep question to him. All I know to do now is pray for him because he has absolutely no interest in serious discussion or reading about it. The other night he said, "I hope there's another life of some kind after death, but who knows?" He doesn't think anyone can know any Truth. It's all just personal opinion and perspective. Nothing true for everyone and for all time. This life is all he lives for, and he has little interest in anyone besides himself.

What do I do?

I was thinking of maybe leaving The Message Bible in his living room and praying that the Holy Spirit will give him a desire to read it. He hasn't had an interest in reading the Bible since about 1973. Like a lot of postmoderns, he has nothing but contempt for ministers, pastors, and priests.

[cardw]

Quote:

So if granny needs a operation and has no money, I can justify the use of 'deadly force' and find my way to rob a bank to get granny what she needs...hey 'situation ethics' and loving my granny come hand in hand, and 'voila', my actions and means to a end are justified.......

Well, the American Revolution was based on that type of thinking. They went to war to defend a greater good of personal freedom. You can read Augustine's work on righteous war and find the same type of thinking.

Post Modern thought is not based on a simple "ends justify the means."

In Christian theology God ultimately uses violence to end sin. This is a cosmic ends justify the means.

The reason you can't "witness" to post modernism is that you don't understand it.

[createsjg]

Live it and give God the glory for the blessings in your life (avoid the word luck and insert blessed). Pray for opportunities to witness. The Holy Spirit will bring people to you and give you the words to say. If they aren't searching for truth then you can't make them see it. I always say things like "by God's grace", "God gives me the strength to...." Don't be afraid to make your life and actions the evidence that there is a different way to look at life. Thank God in the lunch room by bowing your head in prayer. People are watching you. You sow the seeds and the Holy Spirit will take care of the rest. I tell people that I read the Bible through every year. Knowing and understanding Truth will give plenty for God to work with if you wish to be His instrument, His witness. Let me give you a real way that this can happen. I'm an OR nurse (workin in the SF Bay area--lots of eastern religion and post modernistic thinking!) and one day we had a morbidly obese woman that the anesthesiaologist wanted to give spinal anesthetic to--thought it would be safer for her to have less anesthesia. He says "I'm going to need a miracle" pauses and says "Oh that's right I'm an athiest". I said "well I'm a Christian and I'll pray for your miracle." The needle went straight in first try (beleive me they usually struggle on obese people make several tries). I said "see, God gave you your miracle". He acted as if he was ignoring me and I may never know what impact it may have on him. God gives us the opportunities we just need to seize them. Others were there and listening. Only the Holy Spirit knows....

[BibleShockers]

Maybe you should go to work for the Justice Department?:

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26014962/

Bill Ross

[there buster]

Quote:

"I hope there's another life of some kind after death, but who knows?" He doesn't think anyone can know any Truth. It's all just personal opinion and perspective. Nothing true for everyone and for all time. This life is all he lives for, and he has little interest in anyone besides himself.

What do I do?

Give him a copy of "Grounds for Belief." It is written for people like him, and has a chapter that deals with exactly that question.

Not, "the state of the dead," but 'is there something after, and how do I figure it out?"

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

If the end does not justify the means, what does?

It's been awhile since I read Fletcher's "Situation Ethics," but my recollection is that he recognizes one absolute, and that is, the law of love. I believe he is correct in this. For example: the command to cease from labor on the Sabbath is NOT absolute. The law of love may compel me to work on the Sabbath to bring comfort and healing or even save a life on the Sabbath.

The two [love to God & love to man'] are absolutes; the ten [10 commandments & all other commandments that stem from them] may or may not be so absolute.

Gerry

So if granny needs a operation and has no money, I can justify the use of 'deadly force' and find my way to rob a bank to get granny what she needs...hey 'situation ethics' and loving my granny come hand in hand, and 'voila', my actions and means to a end are justified.......

The 'Bill Clinton' Center for Justifying your Actions says 'You've done fine, son', and everybody goes home happy......or do they, anyone see a problem here.....

Is that a loving thing to do? Rob a bank, possibly kill somebody or be killed?

Gerry