Unity of Belief?

[cricket]

Do all Seventh-day Adventists believe the same things? If not, can anyone point me to the group that has the Truth?

[Planey]

Do all Seventh-day Adventists believe the same things? If not, can anyone point me to the group that has the Truth?

Good News Unlimited

[Kevin H]

In 1888 Mrs. White was more focused on the spirit of the groups than how correct they were. She saw the spirit of Jesus as more important truth than the details.

The whole truth is in Jesus. Once you move out to the 12 disciples you find 12 variations of truth. A reason why we have the four gospels is that three of them are three major groupings of perspectives with points of agreement and dissagreement. But they all, like different fasits of a dimond, gives different perspectives of the beauty of Jesus. Then apperently John is to keep the church of Peter and the church of Paul from becoming two opposing religions, reminding them that they both are important to the one religion of Jesus.

Corinthians talks about some of these sub groups in the early church and the problems when the members of corinth wanted to follow the one who has "The Truth" and Paul was very critical about this.

We read about the pharicees, they had many subgroups. Jesus and the disciples going through the grain fields plucking grain on Sabbath was a point that some of these subgroups said was sin others said that it was alright to do. Jesus gave a different answer than the traditional arguments between the pharicees. Also part of why Jesus got into trouble is because he did not join one subgroup of pharicees, but felt free to quote from leaders of all the schools and to agree on points and dissagree on points with all the schools.

And as we go back into the Old Testament, we find that it is a collection of writings of three arguing subgroups. The priesthood of Aaron and their focus on the Jerusalem Temple, The Royal party and their emphessass on the Davidic king, and the priesthood of Moses and their influence in the northern tribes. While I believe in a lieteral historical Moses who wrote the books that became our pentituch, there is also much evidence of the hands of editors in the actual formings of the final books to what we have today. And Leviticus and Deuteronomy were edited by two very differnt approaches to the original writings of Moses.

As for some of the differences in editing: When the spys went to spy out the land how many faithful spys were there? 1, 2 or 12? In the main story there were 2 faithful spys, but in other references and other recountings of the stories Joshua was not listed as one of the spys, where Calab is the faithful spy and Joshua was the faithful of the people hearing the spy's report. Then in Deuteronomy all 12 spys were faithful, but the people rejected the spy's report and the importance of Joshua and Calab is that they were willing to defend the spys from the people.

Therefore we do not even find unity of belief in the Bible, but a collection of disunified and unified beliefs between people that God called his choosen people. And thus we find that Mrs. White was again more focused on the spirit that we show and our willingness to be teachable and willingness to grow than she was in us nesessarly having the correct interpetation. Correctness of interpetation is important but only of third importance behind the spirit of Jesus, the willingness to grow and learn, we all have things to learn and unlearn, there will be pressent truth that is not yet pressent truth as we don't yet know the cultural, geographical and linguistic and poetric structures of the words we are reading the the Bible to fully understand them at our current level. These debating subgroups are how we can look at the evidence to grow in truth.

When the church agreed it had all the truth we had the dark ages. As subgroups have a spirit that they have all the truth they turn into strange people.

[John317]

In 1888 Mrs. White was more focused on the spirit of the groups than how correct they were. She saw the spirit of Jesus as more important truth than the details.

There's no doubt that our attitudes are very important, because if the Spirit is guiding us, we will have love for one another even while not agreeing; but I think it's essential to keep in mind that Ellen White never left people with the idea that what we believe-- having unity on those beliefs-- is of secondary importance.

For instance, she said,

Our faith in reference to the messages of the first, second, and third angels was correct. The great waymarks we have passed are immovable. Although the hosts of hell may try to tear them from their foundation, and triumph in the thought that they have succeeded, yet they do not succeed. These pillars of truth stand firm as the eternal hills, unmoved by all the efforts of men combined with those of Satan and his host. We can learn much, and should be constantly searching the Scriptures to see if these things are so. Maranatha (1976), page 247, paragraph 3

And:

The enemy will set everything in operation to uproot the confidence of the believers in the pillars of our faith in the messages of the past, which have placed us upon the elevated platform of eternal truth, and which have established and given character to the work. The Lord God of Israel has led out His people, unfolding to them truth of heavenly origin. His voice has been heard, and is still heard, saying, "Go forward from strength to strength, from grace to grace, from glory to glory." The work is strengthening and broadening, for the Lord God of Israel is the defense of His people. Selected Messages Book 2 (1958), page 388, paragraph 3

[John317]

Do all Seventh-day Adventists believe the same things? If not, can anyone point me to the group that has the Truth?

The Seventh-day Adventist church is united on the basic beliefs, which consist of the 28 Fundamental Beliefs.

But if your question is whether every individual member of the church believes those basic beliefs or believes them in all their details, then the answer is no.

That does not mean the beliefs of the church are wrong. People grow spiritually and learn at different rates. I don't think we can assume that these differences mean the church does not "have the Truth." If the church really has Jesus Christ in its midst, and if Jesus is in the lives of its members, then the church does have the Truth.

[Tallmark]

I don't believe that God kills. Sodom and Gomorrah, the flood, Job's kids, Ananias and Sapphira, and the firstborn of the Egyptians were not killed by God, but by Satan's destroying angels when the people chose to not have God as their protector. Jesus is the God of the OT, and he never changes. He told Peter to put his sword away when he wanted to defend his master. People in the OT times had over 200 gods, so when people learned that there is only one God, they attributed everything, good and evil, to Him.

Anyone else share my opinion?

[monica]

Sodom and Gomorrah, the flood, Job's kids, Ananias and Sapphira, and the firstborn of the Egyptians were not killed by God, but by Satan's destroying angels when the people chose to not have God as their protector.

Why would Satan's angels kill those who obey and love Satan? The Bible states it was God who destroys the wicked.

[John317]

I understand what you are saying and I do sympathize with your thinking on this, because it seems to me you are trying to defend God's character against things you believe are wrong. However, if what you say is true, then how do we believe the Bible, because doesn't it clearly say over and over again that God is the One who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah and that He brought the flood?

If the Bible has it wrong about those things, how do we know it is right about many other things, such as the miracles; what happens when we die; the resurrection; the Second Coming; salvation, etc.? How do we distinguish truth from mere mistaken perceptions of the prophets?

[Robert]

Do all Seventh-day Adventists believe the same things? If not, can anyone point me to the group that has the Truth?

Pastor Jack

[Robert]

I don't believe that God kills....Anyone else share my opinion?

It's not an opinion...it's a fact!

Light through the Darkness, by MM Campbell

[cricket]

If the whole truth is in Jesus, is everyone who believes in Jesus in agreement with one another? Or, do these very same people hold to different ideas, different beliefs--and yet still have the Truth?

[Robert]

If the whole truth is in Jesus, is everyone who believes in Jesus in agreement with one another?

[LifeHiscost]

I don't believe that God kills. Sodom and Gomorrah, the flood, Job's kids, Ananias and Sapphira, and the firstborn of the Egyptians were not killed by God, but by Satan's destroying angels when the people chose to not have God as their protector. Jesus is the God of the OT, and he never changes. He told Peter to put his sword away when he wanted to defend his master. People in the OT times had over 200 gods, so when people learned that there is only one God, they attributed everything, good and evil, to Him.

Anyone else share my opinion?

I believe our Father takes responsibility for all that He has created. Giving His Son to death is the clearest indication of His willingness to do just that, although there could be no fault found in Him.

"See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand." Deuteronomy 32:39 KJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Tallmark

I don't believe that God kills....Anyone else share my opinion?

It's not an opinion...it's a fact!

Light through the Darkness, by MM Campbell

I have a choice, either to believe what you say or to believe what God has said.

"See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god with Me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand." Deuteronomy 32:39 KJV

"So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger,... that He might make you know that.... man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the LORD." Deuteronomy 8:3 NKJV

"But he (Jesus) answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Matthew 4:4 KJV Parenthesis mine LHC

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: cricket

Do all Seventh-day Adventists believe the same things? If not, can anyone point me to the group that has the Truth?

Pastor Jack

Maybe this below would be a good place to point.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace."

John 1:1-4,14-16 KJV

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand." Rev 1:1-3 KJV

Regards!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Tallmark

I don't believe that God kills....Anyone else share my opinion?

It's not an opinion...it's a fact!

Light through the Darkness, by MM Campbell

I accept the Bible's testimony here and in the things given below and I do not believe that such things make God look bad-- if we understand the whole great controversy and take everything into consideration.

On the other hand, if God were to tell me that He did not do these things, it would not be a problem for me, although I might ask Him why the Bible said He did them.

Would you be able to love and accept and worship God if He were to tell you that the Bible is true and that He did indeed do the very things that the Bibles here says He did?

I can and do. I trust God. It's all about trusting God and His Word. I know that there are many things I do not understand, and some of these things are among them.

Do you accept the following verses just as the Bible gives them?

1) Joshua 6: 16, 21 (Who does the Bible say gave Israel victory and brought the walls of Jericho down? Who does the Bible say gave the order that Israel was to destroy all in that city?)

2) Exodus 32: 27, 28. (Who does the Bible say gave Moses these orders?)

3) Leviticus 10: 2. (Out of whom does the Bible say the fire went?)

4) Numbers 11: 1, 3. (Whose fire does the Bible say did this?)

5) Numbers 16: 21, 30, 35. (Who does the Bible say this fire came from?)

Can you give a Biblically consistent explanation for all of these things as they are related in Scripture and yet maintain that God did not do them but that they were done by Satan? How does one explain those things in that light?

Did Satan cause the walls of Jericho to fall? Did Satan give the order to have the people killed? Did Satan give the order to Moses to have the wicked slain? How do you see this?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

If the whole truth is in Jesus, is everyone who believes in Jesus in agreement with one another? Or, do these very same people hold to different ideas, different beliefs--and yet still have the Truth?

I think the whole truth is in Jesus, but I don't think anyone knows the whole Jesus. So......who can know the whole truth?

I think people add things on (or delete the uncomfortable things) to the "Jesus" they are most comfortable with and go with it from there..... I don't know if that's wrong or not. Having some of Jesus is better than having none. But then, again, that kinda sounds like fence-sitting.

It is sort of like my belief in the state of the dead. I'm not entirely convinced about "soul sleep." It doesn't give me any peace of mind about death. Makes me feel like Jesus up and forgets all about people who loved Him and then died. Doesnt' make me feel like getting any closer to Jesus.

There. The heretic spoke.

[Neil D]

Quote:

It is sort of like my belief in the state of the dead. I'm not entirely convinced about "soul sleep." It doesn't give me any peace of mind about death. Makes me feel like Jesus up and forgets all about people who loved Him and then died. Doesnt' make me feel like getting any closer to Jesus.

There. The heretic spoke.

Hmmmmm...He forgets Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob because they died, but he speaks of them like they are living....Hmmmmmm

Oh well...there..the heretic's heretic has spoken....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

It's not an opinion...it's a fact!

Light through the Darkness' date=' by MM Campbell [/quote']

I have a choice, either to believe what you say or to believe what God has said.

"See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god with Me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of My hand." Deuteronomy 32:39 KJV

"So He humbled you, allowed you to hunger,... that He might make you know that.... man lives by every word that proceeds from the mouth of the LORD." Deuteronomy 8:3 NKJV

"But he (Jesus) answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Matthew 4:4 KJV Parenthesis mine LHC

Regards!

Ex 4:11 Then the Lord said to him [Moses], “Who has made man’s mouth? Who makes him dumb, or deaf, or seeing, or blind? Is it not I, the Lord?

Is 45:6 I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, [size:17pt]and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

[Robert]

On the other hand, if God were to tell me that He did not do these things, it would not be a problem for me, although I might ask Him why the Bible said He did them.

The word of God:

"So Saul died for his unfaithfulness; he was unfaithful to the Lord in that he did not keep the command of the Lord, and also consulted a medium, seeking guidance, and did not seek guidance from the Lord. Therefore the Lord killed him , and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse." 1 Chronicles 10:13-14

There it is, guys! God kills....You better believe it! Take it just as it reads. When God says He does something take Him at His word.

But then if you made such a statement (as above) you would have to eat a bowl of crow. Why? Let's read the rest of God's word:

"Saul said to his armorbearer, “Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it” . . . But his armorbearer would not. . . . Therefore, Saul took a sword and fell on it. . . . So Saul . . . died ." (1 Chron. 10:4, 6)

Saul killed Saul! God didn't kill Saul. Saul had previously rejected God; he had hardened his heart.

Because God’s love does not coerce – it does not force – God had to abandon Saul. Saul placed himself outside God’s protection. Out of desperation Saul committed suicide.

Throughout the Bible you’ll see that God sees and describes Himself as doing what He does not prevent. A perfect example is found in the book of Job:

Job 1:9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge [protection] around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.” 12 The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”

Satan fully knew that it was he who would bring trouble down on Job, yet He blamed God [see verse 11]. Satan understood that God is sovereign. That simply means nothing can happen without God's consent.

Now go to verse 16:

... another messenger came and said [to Job], “The fire of God fell from the sky and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!”

I tell you...God gets a bad rap! Even the messenger believed that fire came down from God and killed Job's family. But it is clear that Satan was the one behind this attack.

[cricket]

For those who actually attempted to answer the original question, thank you. I see now that no single person has the truth any more than any other--we all have Jesus and He paid the price for our salvation. It's 100% on Him and I thank Him for it!

[LifeHiscost]

I see now that no single person has the truth any more than any other--

[cricket]

Jesus truly did die for the salvation of all, however only those who accept the Truth, as Jesus is, have the assurance from Him that eternal life is theirs, without equivocation.

So, what you're saying is that only you can save yourself? That even though Jesus paid the price in full there's still something...some small smidgen, some miniscule part that you HAVE to do in order to receive salvation? That He didn't really give 100%, but something more like 99.99% and we have to give the other 0.01%?

Nah. I don't buy it. Jesus did it ALL for us 100%.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

Jesus truly did die for the salvation of all, however only those who accept the Truth, as Jesus is, have the assurance from Him that eternal life is theirs, without equivocation.

So, what you're saying is that only you can save yourself? That even though Jesus paid the price in full there's still something...some small smidgen, some miniscule part that you HAVE to do in order to receive salvation? That He didn't really give 100%, but something more like 99.99% and we have to give the other 0.01%?

Nah. I don't buy it. Jesus did it ALL for us 100%.

I would be interested in what you believe there is lacking when an individual is found to be without hope for eternal life and where you get your information to arrive at a conclusion.

"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Acts 16:30,31 KJV

Now, I believe the very belief one has in God is a gift from Him, so essentially 100% of our Life is a gift. However we still have the freewill to distrust what our Father says and will consequentially, if we do fall in that category and don't accept the trust God is willing to give, will fail of receiving life eternal.

""

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Genesis 2:17 KJV

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die" Genesis 3:4 KJV

"Jesus saith unto him, I am...the life" John 14:6 KJV

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Hebrews 11:6 KJV

Regards!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

On the other hand, if God were to tell me that He did not do these things, it would not be a problem for me, although I might ask Him why the Bible said He did them.

The word of God:

"So Saul died for his unfaithfulness; he was unfaithful to the Lord in that he did not keep the command of the Lord, and also consulted a medium, seeking guidance, and did not seek guidance from the Lord. Therefore the Lord killed him , and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse." 1 Chronicles 10:13-14

There it is, guys! God kills....You better believe it! Take it just as it reads. When God says He does something take Him at His word.

But then if you made such a statement (as above) you would have to eat a bowl of crow. Why? Let's read the rest of God's word:

"Saul said to his armorbearer, “Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it” . . . But his armorbearer would not. . . . Therefore, Saul took a sword and fell on it. . . . So Saul . . . died ." (1 Chron. 10:4, 6)

Saul killed Saul! God didn't kill Saul. Saul had previously rejected God; he had hardened his heart.

Yes, Robert, we have been over this text many, many times before. I learned that principle in the Academy, maybe even before.

But that principle, good and important as it is, does not help to explain many things in the Bible, as for instance:

1) Lev. 10: 2-- Fire came out from God and consumed Nadab and Ebihu. Did the fire come out from Satan? What happened, in your view, on the basis of the Bible record?

2) Joshua 10: 28-42, and chapter 11, where Yahweh's will was for Israel to conquer all the land and destroy the people who had lived there before them. The 10th chapter shows God even making the sun stand still so the people of Israel could have "revenge upon their enemies." Did Satan make the sun stand still? Did Satan cause Israel to take revenge on their enemies? Did Satan cause the walls of Jericho to fall after the people marched around the city and blew on their trumpets?

3) Exodus 32: 27-- Where Yahweh tells Moses to have about 3,000 men of the people killed for their unfaithfulness at Sinai. Who was it that gave Moses this command if not God? Was Moses mistaken about who gave him the command?

4) Explain the flood on the basis of the principle you outlined. yet without doing violence to the texts of Genesis. How are we to believe that Satan caused the flood when the texts say over and over that God planned it and knew that it would destroy almost the whole world?

5) Who causes the "supper of the great God" in Rev. 19: 17-21. Are we to believe that Satan is the one who causes the death of all the wicked at the Second Coming and then calls all the birds to come eat their corpses?

6) Finally, what about Rev. 20:9 which describes the fire that "comes down from God out of heaven and devours" the lost (Majority Text)?

Does the devil throw himself into the lake of fire and destroy himself? Is God simply a passive observer in all this or does God take an active part in the destruction of sin and sinners?