BibleShockers Posted August 16, 2008 Posted August 16, 2008 I am not of the opinion that the NT hope for the believer is not "going to heaven (the sky)" but rather "living forever in the promised land" (in the middle east). Has anyone considered this viewpoint? I don't think SDAs believe that believers go to heaven (the sky) immediately upon death, but if anyone thinks that is so, I likewise do not see that as scriptural. Bill Quote Bill Ross
Moderators John317 Posted August 16, 2008 Moderators Posted August 16, 2008 OK. Could you give your argument on the basis of the Bible? Or do you believe what you do on the basis of something besides the Bible? If it's based on the Bible, what are the most important verses or passages in the Bible that persuade you of your belief? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleShockers Posted August 16, 2008 Author Posted August 16, 2008 I just came across this on the SDA website: "28. New Earth: On the new earth, in which righteousness dwells, God will provide an eternal home for the redeemed and a perfect environment for everlasting life, love, joy, and learning in His presence. For here God Himself will dwell with His people, and suffering and death will have passed away. The great controversy will be ended, and sin will be no more. All things, animate and inanimate, will declare that God is love; and He shall reign forever. Amen. (2 Peter 3:13; Isa. 35; 65:17-25; Matt. 5:5; Rev. 21:1-7; 22:1-5; 11:15.) " It sounds like the official position is that believers will live on the "New Earth", yes? Bill Quote Bill Ross
olger Posted August 16, 2008 Posted August 16, 2008 Palestine was merely a "type" of the Earth made new. Said David, "he meek shall inhereit the land (Psalm 37:29) Jesus expanded this statement to include the Earth (Matthew 5:5). oG Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
BibleShockers Posted August 16, 2008 Author Posted August 16, 2008 >>>Palestine was merely a "type" of the Earth made new. Said David, "he meek shall inhereit the land (Psalm 37:29) Jesus expanded this statement to include the Earth (Matthew 5:5). So am I correct that the SDA position is that the biblical hope is not to "go to heaven" but is on this planet? If so, kudos. But Jesus did not refer to "Earth" - the planet (with a capital E) because at that time no one knew that they were on a planet! And the name Earth had not been invented yet. The word translated "inherit" does not mean "get from Daddy when he dies" but rather to "seize" or "take over." It refers to conquest. There is a word play - "meek shall conquer"! The word "earth" just means "land" but in this context it refers to "the promised land." It refers to the original promise to Abe that his seed would get the land he proimsed to him. Bill Quote Bill Ross
Fausto Posted August 16, 2008 Posted August 16, 2008 It sounds like the official position is that believers will live on the "New Earth", yes? Quote
BibleShockers Posted August 16, 2008 Author Posted August 16, 2008 >>>THE ABOVE BURNING IS LITERAL, NOT FIGURATIVELLY! Ok, so I'm confused... Where do the believers spend their everlasting life? Bill Quote Bill Ross
Fausto Posted August 16, 2008 Posted August 16, 2008 Believers are first ressurected (those that are dead) and translatted (those that are alive). This is at the second coming. Then they reign with Christ for a thousand years while the devil roams the earth alone (see no one else is left alive, only the devil and his angels are left). After the thousand years, the new Jerusalem will come down to earth, this erath is destroyed a new earth and a new heaven are created, the saints will then reign with Him forever! Hope this makes more sense, sorry no time to look up more scriptures now, but I am sure someone will soon! Quote
BibleShockers Posted August 16, 2008 Author Posted August 16, 2008 >>>...After the thousand years, the new Jerusalem will come down to earth, this erath is destroyed a new earth and a new heaven are created, the saints will then reign with Him forever!... Well, Fausto, it appears that you are certainly more enlightened than your average Joe! But who is "Him"? "Reign with Him forever?" Bill Quote Bill Ross
Moderators John317 Posted August 16, 2008 Moderators Posted August 16, 2008 >>>THE ABOVE BURNING IS LITERAL, NOT FIGURATIVELLY! Ok, so I'm confused... Where do the believers spend their everlasting life? Bill Let me know if this helps. Check out the Scriptures yourself. Ask any questions you like. As Paul said, and Adventists take seriously-- Let every man be persuaded in his own mind: 25. Second Coming of Christ: The second coming of Christ is the blessed hope of the church, the grand climax of the gospel. The Saviour's coming will be literal, personal, visible, and worldwide. When He returns, the righteous dead will be resurrected, and together with the righteous living will be glorified and taken to heaven, but the unrighteous will die. The almost complete fulfillment of most lines of prophecy, together with the present condition of the world, indicates that Christ's coming is imminent. The time of that event has not been revealed, and we are therefore exhorted to be ready at all times. (Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28; John 14:1-3; Acts 1:9-11; Matt. 24:14; Rev. 1:7; Matt. 24:43, 44; 1 Thess. 4:13-18; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; 2:8; Rev. 14:14-20; 19:11-21; Matt. 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Tim. 3:1-5; 1 Thess. 5:1-6.) 26. Death and Resurrection: The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed. Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord. The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later. (Rom. 6:23; 1 Tim. 6:15, 16; Eccl. 9:5, 6; Ps. 146:3, 4; John 11:11-14; Col. 3:4; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; John 5:28, 29; Rev. 20:1-10.) 27. Millennium and the End of Sin: The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever. (Rev. 20; 1 Cor. 6:2, 3; Jer. 4:23-26; Rev. 21:1-5; Mal. 4:1; Eze. 28:18, 19.) 28. New Earth: On the new earth, in which righteousness dwells, God will provide an eternal home for the redeemed and a perfect environment for everlasting life, love, joy, and learning in His presence. For here God Himself will dwell with His people, and suffering and death will have passed away. The great controversy will be ended, and sin will be no more. All things, animate and inanimate, will declare that God is love; and He shall reign forever. Amen. (2 Peter 3:13; Isa. 35; 65:17-25; Matt. 5:5; Rev. 21:1-7; 22:1-5; 11:15.) Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Fausto Posted August 17, 2008 Posted August 17, 2008 But who is "Him"? "Reign with Him forever?" Quote
BibleShockers Posted August 17, 2008 Author Posted August 17, 2008 >>>I thought this would be obvious but that is Christ of course! You folks certainly keep a sense of humor about you! You are not "dour." I appreciate the "light" touch. Anyway... I have a problem with that. What do you make of this? 1Co 15: 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. Does this not suggest to you that, after having subjected the bad guys, Jesus steps down to let God reign? Bill Quote Bill Ross
Fausto Posted August 17, 2008 Posted August 17, 2008 Quote: I appreciate the "light" touch. I don't think we can attempt to teach with a dour approach as you rightly put it! Does this not suggest to you that, after having subjected the bad guys, Jesus steps down to let God reign? Quote
BibleShockers Posted August 17, 2008 Author Posted August 17, 2008 >>>According to this who is sitting on the throne? Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: Two people will sit on that throne: God the lamb But according to Paul, do they sit on it at the same time? Or does the lamb sit on it first, then he gets down so that God can rule from that throne? Bill Quote Bill Ross
Fausto Posted August 17, 2008 Posted August 17, 2008 Quote: But according to Paul, do they sit on it at the same time? Or does the lamb sit on it first, then he gets down so that God can rule from that throne? Gonna have to study this one out before I answer! Quote
Moderators John317 Posted August 17, 2008 Moderators Posted August 17, 2008 >>>According to this who is sitting on the throne?Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: Two people will sit on that throne: God the lamb But according to Paul, do they sit on it at the same time? Or does the lamb sit on it first, then he gets down so that God can rule from that throne? Bill There is no contradiction between 1 Cor. and Revelation. We can go into greater detail if you like, but Paul's point is that Christ does not become superior to the Father because of Christ's work of salvation and because Christ has conquered all evil forces and powers. In order to save mankind and restore peace to the universe, the Son and the Father have had different roles or parts to play in the salvation process. The Father had handed all things over to the Son for the purpose of subduing and destroying sin and death. See Matt. 11: 27. The Son then came to this earth as a baby. As Phil. 2 says, the Son voluntarily submitted Himself to the Father and took on the role of a servant. That is why when He came as a man, Jesus emphasized the fact that He did nothing except what the Father told Him to do and said nothing except what the Father told Him to say. Jesus was emphasizing that the Father and Son work in perfect harmony. There is no competition between them for the highest position or for more power. After subduing all enemies and destroying sin, Jesus then turns the kingdom over to the Father. This act implies no inferiority of the Son compared with the Father. It is a demonstration of the unity of purpose among the members of the Godhead whereby the activities of one are seen to be the activity of the whole. By the way, the word eita never means "at the same time, but rather "next," "afterward," and "after that." In verse, the Greek word hotan is indefinite as to time, and means "whenever." That Christ reigns after the resurrection and the Second Coming is plainly established by Rev. 20: 1-6. Christ reigns during the 1,000 years. 1 Cor. 15: 24, 25, 27, 28 is not a chronological sequence of events, and no specific time for these events is given. Paul's point is that the resurrected Christ will conquer all evil, including death. See Rev. 20:14. This includes His handing over the Kingdom to the Father, following His destroying all dominion, authority and power of persons and forces opposing Him. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleShockers Posted August 17, 2008 Author Posted August 17, 2008 >>>There is no contradiction between 1 Cor. and Revelation. I didn't say or imply that there was. >>>We can go into greater detail if you like, Yes! Detail! So who do you think is in charge (on the throne) post-millennium? Bill Quote Bill Ross
Moderators John317 Posted August 17, 2008 Moderators Posted August 17, 2008 So who do you think is in charge (on the throne) post-millennium? Bill Who declares, in Rev. 22: 13, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last?"______________ Who declares the same thing in Rev. 1: 8?__________________ Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted August 17, 2008 Moderators Posted August 17, 2008 I am not of the opinion that the NT hope for the believer is not "going to heaven (the sky)" but rather "living forever in the promised land" (in the middle east). Has anyone considered this viewpoint? I don't think SDAs believe that believers go to heaven (the sky) immediately upon death, but if anyone thinks that is so, I likewise do not see that as scriptural. Bill Are you of the opinion that there will be a resurrection of dead when Christ returns? What is your opinion as to what will happen to those resurrected? Is your opinion that everyone who ever lived will be resurrected at that same time? What is your opinion about those who have rejected Jesus Christ, as far as resurrection or the future is concerned? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleShockers Posted August 17, 2008 Author Posted August 17, 2008 >>>Who declares, in Rev. 22: 13, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last?"______________ I take that to be Jesus. >>>Who declares the same thing in Rev. 1: 8?__________________ I take that to be God. So would you please answer the question? Who is on the throne post-millenium? Is it God, or is it the lamb? Thanks, Bill Quote Bill Ross
BibleShockers Posted August 17, 2008 Author Posted August 17, 2008 >>>Are you of the opinion that there will be a resurrection of dead when Christ returns? Yes. >>>What is your opinion as to what will happen to those resurrected? Judgment. >>>Is your opinion that everyone who ever lived will be resurrected at that same time? No. >>What is your opinion about those who have rejected Jesus Christ, as far as resurrection or the future is concerned? "Second death" = tossed into the valley of Hinnom, just outside of Jerusalem. There used to be an incinerator there - but the fires of Gehenna apparently burned out and the worms died. Bill Quote Bill Ross
Moderators John317 Posted August 17, 2008 Moderators Posted August 17, 2008 Quote: JOHN3:17-- >>>What is your opinion as to what will happen to those resurrected? BILL ROSS-- Judgment. Are you saying the resurrected righteous who are saved in the Second Coming are judged at that time? When is the judgment of the righteous? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BibleShockers Posted August 17, 2008 Author Posted August 17, 2008 >>>Are you saying the resurrected righteous who are saved in the Second Coming are judged at that time? When are the righteous saved judged? Actually, the righteous are not judged but will instead judge others: Lu 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: 1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. Bill Ross Quote Bill Ross
Moderators John317 Posted August 18, 2008 Moderators Posted August 18, 2008 >>>Are you saying the resurrected righteous who are saved in the Second Coming are judged at that time? When are the righteous saved judged? Actually, the righteous are not judged but will instead judge others: Lu 6:37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: 1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. Bill Ross Study Daniel 7:9, 10, 26, 27; Rev. 14: 7; Rev. 22: 12. The Bible says that there is a judgment prior to the coming of Christ. Remember it says we must all appear before the judgment of God and it also says that Jesus will bring His rewards with Him to give to everyone according to their deeds or work. So the idea that the righteous are not judged is not in accordance with the Bible. I believe that those who claim to be followers of Christ are being judged right now. The judgment of of the righteous-- of all ages-- has been going on since 1844 and will continue until just before Christ returns. THE JUDGMENT OF THE CHURCH IS GOING ON AT THIS VERY TIME. The judgment of those who have never made a claim to believe in Christ or to follow Him will take place at the end of the 1,000 years. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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