Demon possession...what does that mean?

[Robert]

Luke 8:2 "Mary who was called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out"

Question 1: Do demons really control people or does "demon" simply denote being controlled by one's lower nature? In the case of Mary maybe she had 7 besetting sins?

Question 2: Are we tempted by Satan/demons or are we tempted by our own natures?

Question 3: If we are tempted from within (by our natures) what then is Satan's function?

Just thinking out loud,

Rob

[Robert]

Luke 8:2 "Mary who was called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out"

Question 1: Do demons really control people or does "demon" simply denote being controlled by one's lower nature? In the case of Mary maybe she had 7 besetting sins?

Question 2: Are we tempted by Satan/demons or are we tempted by our own natures?

Question 3: If we are tempted from within (by our natures) what then is Satan's function?

Just thinking out loud,

Rob

The only one I actually have an answer to is # 2. The other two I'm not really sure....As to # 2:

James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.

Mark 7:21 For from within, out of men’s hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 greed, malice, deceit, lewdness, envy, slander, arrogance and folly. 23 All these evils come from inside and make a man ‘unclean.’”

[Robert]

Luke 8:2 "Mary who was called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out"

Question 1: Do demons really control people or does "demon" simply denote being controlled by one's lower nature? In the case of Mary maybe she had 7 besetting sins?

These next quotes goes with question # 1:

Luke 22:3 "Then Satan entered Judas"

John 13:27 "As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him."

What does this mean (I don't know)? We know that Judas was tempted from his greedy nature, but what does Satan entered him mean? Does it mean at that point the Holy vacated Judas (i.e., Judas' heart was completely hardened) and Satan took full control?

Rob

[John317]

Luke 8:2 "Mary who was called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out"

Question 1: Do demons really control people or does "demon" simply denote being controlled by one's lower nature? In the case of Mary maybe she had 7 besetting sins?

Question 2: Are we tempted by Satan/demons or are we tempted by our own natures?

Question 3: If we are tempted from within (by our natures) what then is Satan's function?

Just thinking out loud,

Rob

People may be tempted in both ways. If Satan were to die right now, people would go on sinning because of their nature and because of their habits and love of sin. However, it is also true that Satan and his fallen angels do actually take over people's bodies and minds.

Satan (and his spirit followers) tempts, harasses, controls, and possesses. Those are four different levels of Satan's attacks on humans. He hates everything God loves and seeks to destroy them and cause people to do the same.

The New Testament makes this clear, but there are many today who think the Bible is using metaphorical, rather than literal, language.

Consider this quote from Ellen White:

The Signs of the Times , June 13, 1895, paragraph 3

Article Title: The Usurper's Authority Disputed.-By Mrs. E. G. White.-

Satan determined to sit upon the throne of God in the earth, to sit in the temple of God, showing himself to be God. For ages he seemed to rule as though the world was entirely his own, and his assumption to supreme authority seemed undisputed. The powers of hell seemed to hold men under their control, and Satan revealed his hellish principles in taking possession of the human body, and plunging his subjects into misery and crime. To all appearances the world had become his subjects, with the exception of a small minority who dared to withstand his power and to dispute his authority. Through his agents he invented instruments of torture, and put his victims to cruel suffering, and then he charged his own attributes upon God, and indicted the law of God as the cause of men's misery. Temptation became a science in his hands, and men were educated to be sinners. The confederacies of evil were numerous, and every demon power had a part to act in carrying out the plottings of evil, and every worker was to be ready to spring into action to do his assigned work at an instant's notice. Could the curtain have been withdrawn so that men could have seen what measures were being taken to gain access to the human soul, could they have realized how successful the demoniacal plottings were to prove, they could have stood back with horror, and would have broken with Satan without delay.

Also Google "Vaughn Allen's The War Is Real" and then click on the first link. This is a true book. It's one of several of the author's books available at the Adventist Book Center. You can also order it online or at the stores.

[Robert]

Consider this quote from Ellen White

[John317]

What do you think of Mark 1: 25 where Jesus commands the evil spirit (not the man), "Be quiet, and come out of him." The next verse says the evil spirit convulsed the man's body, cried out with a loud voice (using the man's tongue, of course) and "came out of him."

Based on the Bible evidence as well as the evidence of experiences where people have demons cast out of them-- assuming that these are genuine, which I believe at least some are-- it is apparent that evil spirits actually do inhabit bodies of people.

Of course, demons do not occupy space the same as humans do, so very many demons can possess, or occupy, the body of a single person.

These demons interpret disloyalty to God and continued willful, deliberate sin as an invitation to take over a person's mind and body.

[Robert]

What do you think of Mark 1: 25 where Jesus commands the evil spirit (not the man), "Be quiet, and come out of him." The next verse says the evil spirit convulsed the man's body, cried out with a loud voice (using the man's tongue, of course) and "came out of him."

[John317]

I'll come back and write more on this later, but for now I'd like to give other people a chance to write something. I'll be back on Sunday.

You're examples are just fine. I don't read anything into those things.

[Robert]

I'll come back and write more on this later, but for now I'd like to give other people a chance to write something.

I guess it's back to you....

Rob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

What do you think of Mark 1: 25 where Jesus commands the evil spirit (not the man), "Be quiet, and come out of him." The next verse says the evil spirit convulsed the man's body, cried out with a loud voice (using the man's tongue, of course) and "came out of him."

Okay...how does one differentiate between possession and besetting sin..addictions...habits?

Or are all addictions/habits possessions???

Addictions and sinful habits aren't ever necessarily possession. Sinful habits can eventually lead to possession, however.

It would never be possible for someone watching another person who has a sinful habit to be certain that that person is possessed.

Quote:

Of course, demons do not occupy space the same as humans do, so very many demons can possess, or occupy, the body of a single person.

This is interesting...more info please....

Mark 5: 6-11--

But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

7And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not.

8For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit.

9And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.

10And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.

11Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.

12And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.

13And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.

14And they that fed the swine fled, and told it in the city, and in the country. And they went out to see what it was that was done.

15And they come to Jesus, and see him that was possessed with the devil, and had the legion, sitting, and clothed, and in his right mind: and they were afraid.

[John317]

Willful sins are sins of choice. I mean something that a person continues to practice over a period of time when they know it is wrong to do it and they could do otherwise but thy choose to keep doing it.

The willful, deliberate sins I'm talking about are those sins that are not repented of and that we don't ask forgiveness for. They are sins that a person wants to keep doing.

Quote:

Again, and I think you agree, willful sin is not willfully sinning (as we all do from time to time) but refusing to repent of that sin when the Spirit convicts us, right? I think we agreed here before.

Yes, a person doesn't confess and repent his sin. It may be a willful sin even if he does later repent of it, however. In that case, he is repenting of having committed a willful sin.

Quote:

So let's say I'm having a terrible week...my marriage is falling apart...I feel like God's abandoned me and so I give into some gross temptation. Let's say it's some sexual sin (e.g., went with some guys from work to nude bar)....That's pretty much willful sin because I feel God's rejected me (or whatever clever enticement my nature comes up).

Anyway, the next morning I really feel bad...I feel like I've put a knife into Christ...I feel like a terrible witness and I repent. That's not willful sin, right?

Yes, that's a willful sin, but if a person sincerely repents of it and makes confession to God with the intention of not doing it again, God does forgive and cleanse us from all unrighteousness, just like 1 John 1 says.

Quote:

Anyway, let's say I don't repent and justify going to that nude bar....Are you saying that sometime down the road (as I harden my heart) Satan or a demon can enter me and take over my mind?

Yes, if a person continues that activity and resists the Holy Spirit and does not repent of it and make confession-- but keeps going back to that sin-- the fallen spirits can take possession of that person's mind and body.

Quote:

In my mind that can only happen if the Holy Spirit abandoned me...i.e., moves out. Hence I have persistently rejected His call to repentance and my need of Christ's righteousness. If this is your position I think I mostly agree....

Rob[/quote']

It's not a question of the Holy Spirit abandoning an individual. What happens is that the individual by his choices rejects the Holy Spirit as he gets deeper and deeper into sin and distances himself from God. This usually happens gradually and the person doesn't even know he's grieved away the Holy Spirit.

Being possessed doesn't mean there's no hope for that person. Such a person can still experience salvation, but it is a real battle. It takes lots of prayer by many faithful believers to free a person from possession, and the individual must want to be free. The person probably cannot pray, but Jesus knows the heart and will make a way for that person to be delivered through the help of dedicated, knowledgeable Christians.

[LifeHiscost]

So, the questions are, did Satan literally enter Judas or does it metaphorically mean that Judas (at that point in his life) completely hardened his heart and hence his nature took full control of his mind? Again, this is new territory of me....

Rob

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness" Romans 6:16 KJV

"But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods. But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage?" Gal 4:7,9 NKJV

Bondage as a slave seems to indicate a personal tie to someone.

It seems one can be tied up against one's will.

"When evening came, they brought to Him many who were demon-possessed; and He cast out the spirits with a word, and healed all who were ill." Matthew 8:16 NASB

"Then they came to Jesus, and saw the one who had been demon-possessed and had the legion, sitting and clothed and in his right mind. And they were afraid." Mark 5:15 NKJV

Regards!

[Robert]

Being possessed doesn't mean there's no hope for that person. Such a person can still experience salvation, but it is a real battle.

I thought we were talking of a believer, who for one reason or another, began to practice and justify known sin until his/her heart was fully hardened? That might lead to possession...I don't know, but in my understanding that person has no chance to experience salvation again.

Heb 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age [that's a born-again believer], 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Now, the question is, how does a person "fall away"? Well one way is to become or stay self-righteous and arrogant - like Paul before his conversion. That's why I hammer away at what I perceive to be legalism.

Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ [i.e., cutoff], you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace ["fall away"].

That's one ditch....The other ditch is the justification and practice of known sin.

Rob

[Robert]

Bondage as a slave seems to indicate a personal tie to someone. It seems one can be tied up against one's will.

Even in your Christian walk if you (i.e., your mind) tries to resist sin & temptation you can't (in and of yourself) because your mind will end up serving your human nature. That's what Roman 7 is partially about....

Rob

[Nightingale]

Most of us would agree that there is a battle going on in the universe.

Since both Christ and Satan concern themselves with every aspect of human affairs, every area of our lives can become the scene of battle.

If there is a battle, we either resist the temptation and win that round in the conflict or we yield to the temptation and lose the round. If we resist

and win it is because of Gods presence in our lives. For we do not have within ourselves the power to subdue a single sin or to overcome even the smallest temptation. See 4T355

Resisting one temptation makes it easier for us to resist the next temptation in the same or different area of our lives, for we have yielded a little more control to the Holy Spirit. But if we capitulate to the enemy and yield to the temptation, we short-circut the Holy Spirit and make it easier to yield again, either in the same or different area of our lives.

For in yielding we have turned over a little more of our wills to Satan.

We have given ground to him.

When we yield repeatedly, Satan's influence becomes predominant in that area of our lives as our wills become weaker, and eventually we lose the ability even to choose to resist Satan.

If we do not call upon God for help but permit this process to continue, eventually there will come a time when Satan will control that area of our lives almost completly or at least at his will.

To the degree that this condition exists in a person's life that person is "possessed" by Satan. When Satan is in control of several areas of a person's life that person's habits, behavior, and his lifestyle are no longer under his control.

"Submit yourselves to therefore to God, resist the devil and he will flee from you." James 4:7. We must surrender our wills to God's divine will before we can resist effectively. It is the submission to God and the resulting love relationship with Jesus Christ that makes our resistance to Satan possible.

Taken from the book "More Than A Match" by Vaughn Allen

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Being possessed doesn't mean there's no hope for that person. Such a person can still experience salvation, but it is a real battle.

I thought we were talking of a believer, who for one reason or another, began to practice and justify known sin until his/her heart was fully hardened? That might lead to possession...I don't know, but in my understanding that person has no chance to experience salvation again.

Heb 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age [that's a born-again believer], 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Yes, we are talking about a believer-- at least people who have claimed Christ as their savior.

The question we don't know the answer to is whether the theoretical believer we're talking about ever experienced true conversion. Has this person always been keeping back part of himself from Jesus Christ? Did he ever fully surrender himself?

Let's look at an illustration.

Suppose a man who claims Christ is keeping a lot of pornography under his mattress. He has had this sin under his mattress for years. He had them under there since before his baptism. He just never got rid of those sins. He's kept them hidden all this time. Now every once in a while he indulges this sin. After he does it, he asks God to forgive him, but his keeping those porn magazines shows that he is still planning on committing those same sins again. He is double minded. He's never surrendered that part of life.

Has he ever truly repented?

Isn't there a difference between full surrender and part-surrender?

As Nightingale says, Satan views these kinds of sins as something like a key to our souls and our hearts. He uses them to get us involved in more and more sin, in other areas of our lives, and if we don't overcome them by God's grace, they will eventually overcome us.

Satan does not mind partial surrender. As long as it's only partial, he has nothing to fear.

[Robert]

Satan does not mind partial surrender. As long as it's only partial, he has nothing to fear.

But aren't all of us only partially surrendered? If we were fully surrendered 1 John 1:8 and Roman 3:23 wouldn't be true. We could say that we are without sin (Jesus did!) and we wouldn't be falling short of God's agape love.

Now the example you gave is what Paul would term a carnal Christian - i.e., a believer who has not matured. In your example he is hiding porn magazines under his mattress and views it now and then. The problem with that scenario is that it's too easy to feed the flesh, but then again who needs magazines when you are just a few clicks away from viewing anything your nature desires on the WWW?

BTW, even though he's living for his nature he still has heaven "in Christ". Yes, he needs to experience growth, but that comes with time and learning things the hard way sometimes. That's why we are told not to judge. We can't read the heart...the struggles...his life experiences.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

Bondage as a slave seems to indicate a personal tie to someone. It seems one can be tied up against one's will.

Even in your Christian walk if you (i.e., your mind) tries to resist sin & temptation you can't (in and of yourself) because your mind will end up serving your human nature. That's what Roman 7 is partially about....

Rob

Agreed.

"But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members." Romans 7:23 KJV

I believe the law of sin is that which one is under when unconverted. It is not God's Law that He writes on His willing children's hearts, which is the Law of Truth.

"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people." Jeremiah 31:33 KJV

"FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAELAFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE." Hebrews 8:10 NASB Emphasis theirs LHC

"But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." James 1:25 KJV

"O how love I Thy law! it is my meditation all the day." Psalm 119:97 KJV

"Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth."

Psalm 119:142 KJV

Spoken like a true legalist, washed in the blood of Jesus and saved by grace through faith.

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

If we do not call upon God for help but permit this process to continue, eventually there will come a time when Satan will control that area of our lives almost completly or at least at his will.

While submission to God is necessary before success in resisting, the continuous invitation for Jesus to walk with one's self guarantees only those trials will come into our lives which Jesus knows He can save us.

"Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5 KJV

"And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him." Genesis 5:24 KJV

Regards!

[Guest truthseeker007]

Since we are talking about pornography i would like to express my personal views on this matter. Two weeks ago i was searching for those pics. I was totally out of control. I went to bed in about 6 in the morning for a couple of days. I spend about 40 hours collecting the most disgusting porn on the net. I finally had 6 cd s full of images. I didn t know there was some very tricky problem with me. Everytime i asked something to God, i really didn t believe it. All i had inside my head were negative thoughts. Then i felt so terribly exhausted physically and mentally. Then i saw the secret on TV on Oprah and it really helped me. The law of attraction says that our thoughts send out vibrations to the universe. If we think positive and visualise positive things and we ask those things to the living God, we will receive. For me it helped, and it also gives me more insight. For instance, Jesus stresses so much importance on belief. Maybe theoretically, we have found the right faith, but that is not powerfull when you don t really believe that you will receive something. God can answer all the prayers at the same time, only if he has some universal mechanism to do that. I don t think Jesus is able to personally listen to million people at the same time, but if we call upon his name, the universe will respond in his name. Oprah propagates this secret law of attraction as a means to get money etc., that has never been my purpse, only if i thereby able to glorify God. I am thankfull i am finally free from depression and i have acces to God again by using thoughts and emotions. I know it is real because as a child i somehow knew this secret. You really have to believe that you will receive if you ask something in Jesus name. Doesn t Jesus somewhere tell us 'ask and believe you already received it". God is willing to give us what we need, but we need to believe it. In other words, a prayer without belief has no effect. As for my pornography, i threw it all away in the trash can...

[rush4hire]

It's like having the Holy Spirit(1) and being filled with the Holy Spirit(2), and being full of the Holy Spirit(3). Three different things. Every real Christian has the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit to keep them from sin and to instruct them in the ways of the Lord. Then get into a ministry and the Holy Ghost will come upon you at times and make you do special things.

Like Samson:

[color:#BF0000]Judges 15:14 ..and the spirit of the LORD came mightily upon him, and the cords that [were] upon his arms became as flax that was burnt with fire, and his bands loosed from off his hands.

15:15 And he found a new jawbone of an ass, and put forth his hand, and took it, and slew a thousand men therewith.

Like the Apostles:

[color:#BF0000]Acts 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 4:8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Acts 13:9 Then Saul, (who also [is called] Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,

13:10 And said, O full of all subtlety and all mischief, [thou] child of the devil, [thou] enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

13:11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord [is] upon thee, and thou shalt be blind

The more you work for God the more and more often you will need to be filled with the Holy Ghost. If often filled, you would be considered to be someone who was full of the Holy Ghost.

Same with devils. Everyone who sins is under the control of Satan. "He that committeth sin is of the devil", (1 John 3:8). The Devil uses him to influence others to sin to keep people laden with sins and under his control and to tempt God's elect.

But a person who is actively working for the Devil can submit to being filled with the "Unholy Spirit", if you will, to do supernatural things, like walk on hot coals, levitate objects, fortune telling, breaking chains, performing the devil's music, etc:

[color:#BF0000]Acts 16:16 ...a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:

1 Sam. 28:7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her.

Spiritualism is a way people can become demoniacs:

Quote:

Satan holds control over mortals who depart from the right, and venture upon his ground. He exercises his power upon such in an alarming manner. I was directed to these words, "Intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind." Some, I was shown, gratify their curiosity, and tamper with the Devil. They have no real faith in Spiritualism, and would start back with horror at the idea of being a medium. Yet they venture, and place themselves in a position where Satan can exercise his power upon them. They do not mean to enter deep into this work, but such know not what they are doing. They are venturing upon the Devil's ground, and are tempting him to control them. This powerful destroyer considers such his lawful prey, and will exercise his power upon them, and that against their will. When they wish to control themselves they cannot. They yielded their mind to Satan, and he holds them captive, and he will not release his claims. No power can deliver the ensnared soul but the power of God, in answer to the earnest prayers of his faithful followers. {4bSG 88.1}

Those wretched beings, dwelling in the place of graves, possessed by demons, in bondage to uncontrolled passions and loathsome lusts, represent what humanity would become if given up to satanic jurisdiction .... Through his specious temptations Satan leads men to worse and worse evils, till utter depravity and ruin are the result.... {DA 341.1}

Not that it's necessary to understand it a certain way, but I don't think that devils physically inhabit the bodies of people, but spiritually. They are like puppet masters, like we see Satan controlling the serpent. There would be a physical defilement in the brain where the devil has his spiritual fingers in the puppet. Those holes would need to be healed.

If God allowed us to witness such a horror, you would probably see a demoniac surrounded by evil angels. They are in him in the sense that they have perfect control over the person and there is a physical connection. Physically the angels are not inside the person, but spiritually. The angel is not controlling his own body, but the persons. It's like controlling a guy in a video game. The kid sort of becomes that little guy.

I know that angels of God, can at times, possess His servants to give them words to speak. They don't physically enter the body.

Also the demon possessed are not tormented until the Holy Ghost comes around and those who have passed beyond the point of no return would not be tormented, like Judas.

[color:#BF0000]Matt. 8:29 .. art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

Also devils do not want to lose their homes so will take every precaution, hedging up their victims, so they will not want to separate from their devils:

[color:#BF0000]Matt. 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.

12:44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out

Luk 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep (abussos).

If you disagree with any of this, please let me know.

[rush4hire]

So no one disagrees with any of those ideas?