Does God Choose or does Man...

[Reddogs]

Does God Choose or does Man...

Can God, being omniscient, choose those who will be saved or does man out of his on free will choose to be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:13

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Prov 19;21 "many plans are in the hearts of man, but its the Lords purpose that prevails"

[Joe_in_RP]

If God chose, then how would it be free will?

[John317]

I believe the verse means that God determined to save all who should put their faith in Jesus Christ. I don't believe it means that God arbitrarily chose to save some and to condemn others. The Bible plainly teaches that God would have all come to a knowledge of Christ and be saved. God certainly does not get any pleasure out of the death of the wicked.

We would not choose Christ or desire what is right apart from the Holy Spirit, but ultimately it is up to each person to decide whether he or she wants Christ and salvation. People are able to resist the Holy Spirit if they choose to. God doesn't force people to obey Him but he gets pleasure out of worship and love which is intelligently and freely given.

[Robert]

Does God Choose or does Man...

Can God, being omniscient, choose those who will be saved or does man out of his on free will choose to be saved.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Reddogs

Does God Choose or does Man...

Can God, being omniscient, choose those who will be saved or does man out of his on free will choose to be saved.

From God's point of view "all men" have been saved (past tense) "in Christ"!

Go to Eph 2:4

Quote:

But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great [agape] with which He [agaped] us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions [spiritually dead - unbelievers], made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus

Again, "in Christ" all men have been saved by grace. Read it again, that's what it says: "by grace (not faith...not works) you have been saved (past tense)". Where? "In Christ"! And Christ as the Son of Man died some 2000 years ago.

Now let's read on:

8 For by grace you have been saved [past tense] through faith...

God saved you "in Christ", but you received this truth by faith. God didn't force it on you, but it is already yours if you want it. However, you have the free will to reject it and say, "No thanks, I don't need your stinking grace because I am perfectly able to save myself." That's essentially what everyone who rejects Christ is telling Him.

Of course, it is significant that Paul is writing to people who have placed their faith in Christ. They are saved "in Christ," that is, in union with Christ; having a faith-based relationship with Him. 1 John 5 says that we have the life if we have Christ, and we do not have the life if we do not have Him. Eternal life is in possessing Christ and the Holy Spirit.

"By faith you have been saved THROUGH [personal] FAITH [or trust]." We cannot trust in Christ before we're born, of course. Compare John 3: 16. All who have faith in Christ might be saved.

Could you point to any verses regarding the preaching of the gospel in the NT where it is said that all humans are already saved and now people have merely to accept it?

Doesn't the Bible consistently say things such as, "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and YOU WILL BE SAVED," not "you are already saved or you were saved before you were born"?

Faith in God or Christ certainly does not earn the believer merit with God, yet it is necessary to receive salvation. Faith has been rightly compared to the empty hand that reaches out to receive God's free gift.

There is no question that God gave Christ to die for all humanity before we were born. Therefore it is true that the provision was made for all of us to be saved at the time Christ was crucified. The plan to save us was as good as done even before the Fall of Adam.

[Gerr]

Does God Choose or does Man...

Can God, being omniscient, choose those who will be saved or does man out of his on free will choose to be saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:13

But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Prov 19;21 "many plans are in the hearts of man, but its the Lords purpose that prevails"

Salvation is a convergence of TWO choices: God chooses to call, and some choose to accept the call.

Gerry

[Robert]

Of course, it is significant that Paul is writing to people who have placed their faith in Christ.

True, Paul's various letters are to either individuals or the churches, but that doesn't mean Paul is always writing about believers. Again, go back to Eph 2: 4

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love [agape] with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)...."

What does Paul mean by "even when we were dead in our transgressions"? Go to verse 1:

"And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world."

This simply means that "in Christ" God saved you by His grace even though you were walking according to the principle of this world. Very clear for those who are not steeped in tradition.

Now go to Romans 5:6

"While we were still weak [eat up with the flesh], at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Why, one will hardly die for a righteous man—though perhaps for a good man one will dare even to die. 8 But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life."

When you were sinful...living for the flesh...when your mind and flesh (nature) were in harmony....when you hated God...Jesus saved you in Himself! When you were enemies, you were reconciled to God through Christ. Hence, you were justified not by faith, but by His blood (see Romans 6:6/7:4)

Otherwise, John, you make "faith" - not Christ - the savior. You can say "MY faith saved me." But if that's true then Christ must die again and again every time someone believes.

Rob

[Robert]

Could you point to any verses...in the NT where it is said that all humans are already saved and now people have merely to accept it?

I've already given you some, but first don't forget that EGW has babies, who have died before they exercised faith towards God, in heaven. You like to ignore that one....

This truth could only be possible if our condemnation "in Adam" was reversed "in Christ". According to Romans 5:18 (and other statements) that is the case....

Now, are babies born sinful? Yes, the Bible clearly states this in many places. Yet these little ones, who never even understood the gospel, will be in heaven. Yes, they won't take their natures there...so no worries...but yet they'll be in heaven. How so? Not faith, but grace. Hence, as Paul says, "by grace you were saved."

Rob

[cricket]

I believe it is God's will that all men be saved. I believe God, through the Holy Spirit, puts His will in the hearts of men and gives men faith. It is not of free will to choose or not choose--God does the choosing. He chooses ALL men.

[John317]

When you were sinful...living for the flesh...when your mind and flesh (nature) were in harmony....when you hated God...Jesus saved you in Himself! When you were enemies, you were reconciled to God through Christ. Hence, you were justified not by faith, but by His blood (see Romans 6:6/7:4)

Otherwise, John, you make "faith" - not Christ - the savior. You can say "MY faith saved me." But if that's true then Christ must die again and again every time someone believes.

Rob

Yes, we are justified by Christ's giving his life for us. Our faith is not what justifies us. Justification, the forgiveness of sins and the imputed righteousness of Christ, are all a gift-- completely unearned.

But we must accept the gift. God gives us the desire and makes it possible for us to choose Him, but we can and often do resist Him. God gives us that choice. We have to decide consciously to put our wills on God's side. We surrender our wills and our righteousness for God's will and for His righteousness.

Faith is the empty hand of man reaching out to accept the gift of God.

Faith cannot possibly be the savior because it doesn't contribute to God's gift. It merely accepts it.

To say faith then becomes our savior would like saying accepting someone's gift earns or makes the gift. If I am handing you a check of $1,000, and you refuse to put your hand out to accept it, will you ever be able to use the gift?

Who is the hero if someone throws a drowning person a rope or life-jacket? Is the drowning man who grabs the rope the hero? No. Because all he has done is accept the rope thrown to him by another person. That's the way it is with us: God has thrown us a rope, and even given us power to grab it and the desire for it -- but we have to decide to reach out our empty hand. If we don't, we drown.

In the way way, we cannot logically see faith as our Savior simply because God requires that we give Him permission to save us. He won't save us against our wills.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Could you point to any verses...in the NT where it is said that all humans are already saved and now people have merely to accept it?

I've already given you some, but first don't forget that EGW has babies......

I'm referring to the way the gospel was presented by Christ, the disciples, and the apostles. Where do they proclaim the gospel of Christ as salvation that has already happened to everyone and that is ours even before we make any choice?

Yes, the sacrifice was made before we were born. But that is not the question. Where do they proclaim it by saying that all men are already justified and saved and that all we must do is accept the salvation that is already ours? Is it ever clearly put in that way in the NT?

I am not ignoring the Ellen White quote about babies. I believe it. I believe Ellen White was God's messenger and a true prophet. But that quote cannot be made the basis of how we present the gospel. We cannot make it the basis of our soteriology or our theology of mission. Ellen White never would have wanted that and she did not write it in order for it to be used in that way.

[John317]

I believe it is God's will that all men be saved. I believe God, through the Holy Spirit, puts His will in the hearts of men and gives men faith. It is not of free will to choose or not choose--God does the choosing. He chooses ALL men.

I agree with you that it's God's will that all men be saved. He does choose all men in that sense. But how do you account for the fact that some will be saved but most will be lost? Most people go down the broad road that leads to destruction, whereas a few travel the narrow road that leads to salvation. God wants everyone to arrive at the same destination. Why then, do you believe, do most arrive finally at the wrong place?

[Robert]

Where do they proclaim it by saying that all men are already justified and saved and that all we must do is accept the salvation that is already ours?

[John317]

I'm in Denver today, Sabbath, and since I can't get to a church, I'm enjoying studying Jack Sequiera's book, Christ Speaks to Laodicea. Have you read this book and do you believe all of it? (I asked you this once before on a different thread but am not sure if you saw it or answered.) I'm finding it very interesting and worth while. I'm a little over half way through. Except for the part about Job, I haven't seen anything that I would disagree with.

Some time I would be interested in devoting a thread to his book and to a discussion of it.

[cricket]

I agree with you that it's God's will that all men be saved. He does choose all men in that sense. But how do you account for the fact that some will be saved but most will be lost? Most people go down the broad road that leads to destruction, whereas a few travel the narrow road that leads to salvation. God wants everyone to arrive at the same destination. Why then, do you believe, do most arrive finally at the wrong place?

I have never known anyone who has actually been to the "final" destination. I am, rather, convinced that God wants us all to be with Him in eternity. I believe it is His choice, His will, His desire and His efforts that will ensure that not a single one of His children be lost eternally. I believe that God works with us and for us so that we each will come to an understanding of His will and of His divine love. I believe that now we only know "in part", but then, i.e. sometime in the future, we will know "in full". I believe that ALL things are possible with God. I believe in a mysterious strange act in which God will demonstrate His unfailing love and will woo the hearts of everyone.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Where do they proclaim it by saying that all men are already justified and saved and that all we must do is accept the salvation that is already ours?

Read me!

Here's a sample:

Quote:

The Calvinists have great difficulty explaining the universal text of the New Testament, that Christ came to save the entire human race [see Jn. 3:16,17; 12:47; 1 Tim. 2:5,6; Tit. 2:11]. The Arminians, on the other hand, have great difficulty with those texts that clearly state that on the cross God actually saved, redeemed, or reconciled to Himself the entire human race [Rom. 5:10, 18; 2 Cor. 5:18,19; 1 Tim. 4:10; 1 Jn. 2:2].

Jesus' death certainly shows that God loves everyone and that He wants everyone to be saved. He has opened the door to His Kingdom and invited everyone in-- but there are conditions to entering in, of course.

Many of the verses given above really speak of God as the sustainer of all humanity, despite the rebellion and sin. In this way, God's grace is extended to and falls upon all. None of us-- including those who hate God and want nothing to do with Him--would be alive now if it wasn't for Jesus Christ.

I see Romans 5: 10, 18 as teaching that it's through Christ that humanity is brought back into harmony with God, just as it was through Adam that man lost this harmony. Verses 18 and 19 are basically saying the same thing. (Remember that the verb in the last phrase of v. 18 is not in the original text but is supplied. It could just as easily be "leads" or "results" as "there resulted," etc.

I've read that link before. I know what Jack S. teaches on this subject. But what I am asking for are specific verses in Acts, for instance, which show the gospel being proclaimed in the way you've presented it here-- that is, as salvation or justification that has already happened before we were born or put our faith in Christ.

What do you think about the fact that the preaching and proclamation of the gospel in Acts does not reflect the idea that the whole world was justified at the time of Christ's death? At least I do not see it there. Do you?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I agree with you that it's God's will that all men be saved. He does choose all men in that sense. But how do you account for the fact that some will be saved but most will be lost? Most people go down the broad road that leads to destruction, whereas a few travel the narrow road that leads to salvation. God wants everyone to arrive at the same destination. Why then, do you believe, do most arrive finally at the wrong place?

I have never known anyone who has actually been to the "final" destination. I am, rather, convinced that God wants us all to be with Him in eternity. I believe it is His choice, His will, His desire and His efforts that will ensure that not a single one of His children be lost eternally. I believe that God works with us and for us so that we each will come to an understanding of His will and of His divine love. I believe that now we only know "in part", but then, i.e. sometime in the future, we will know "in full". I believe that ALL things are possible with God. I believe in a mysterious strange act in which God will demonstrate His unfailing love and will woo the hearts of everyone.

OK, I think I understand. I did not know before what you believed about this topic.

I'm sure you've been asked before, and probably get tired of answering, the question about such verses as 2 Thess. 1: 7-9; 2: 8-10; Matt. 20: 46; and Rev. 20:9, among others. My question is, then, how does one believe that eventually all people will be saved, and harmonize the belief in universal salvation with the verses that teach otherwise?

[cricket]

Good question. Do you want my opinion; or do you want an in-depth answer with biblical texts which, in my opinion, support my beliefs? If it is the latter, it will take much more time than I have right now, but I am willing to take on the task and supply you with those answers (in time).

[Gerr]

Good question. Do you want my opinion; or do you want an in-depth answer with biblical texts which, in my opinion, support my beliefs? If it is the latter, it will take much more time than I have right now, but I am willing to take on the task and supply you with those answers (in time).

If you really think that in the end NO ONE will be lost including the demons, yeah, I for one would like to see your Biblical basis for such a belief.

Gerry

[Robert]

What do you think about the fact that the preaching and proclamation of the gospel in Acts does not reflect the idea that the whole world was justified at the time of Christ's death? At least I do not see it there. Do you?

[John317]

Good question. Do you want my opinion; or do you want an in-depth answer with biblical texts which, in my opinion, support my beliefs? If it is the latter, it will take much more time than I have right now, but I am willing to take on the task and supply you with those answers (in time).

I was interested mostly in your opinion-- how you think about this question, but you could also answer at length if you like sometime when you have time. I'm interested in both.

[Robert]

Further, because God has actually redeemed the entire human race in Christ, He can take to heaven all those who have never heard the gospel, through no fault of their own, but who were faithful to the light they had, whatever that light may have been. These will here about Jesus for the first time in heaven and at that time will give Him the glory for saving them.

Wherever there is an impulse of love and sympathy, wherever the heart reaches out to bless and uplift others, there is revealed the working of God’s Holy Spirit. In the depths of heathenism, men who have had no knowledge of the written law of God, who have never even heard the name of Christ, have been kind to His servants, protecting them at the risk of their own lives. Their acts show the working of a divine power. The Holy Spirit has implanted the grace of Christ in the heart of the savage, quickening his sympathies contrary to his nature, contrary to his education. The “Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world” (John 1:9), is shining in his soul; and this light, if heeded, will guide his feet to the kingdom of God. [COL 385]

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

What do you think about the fact that the preaching and proclamation of the gospel in Acts does not reflect the idea that the whole world was justified at the time of Christ's death? At least I do not see it there. Do you?

John, John, John...you're not listening! Please step back from your traditional dogma.

If you really read Sequeira then you should have read this:

Quote:

Further, because God has actually redeemed the entire human race in Christ, He can take to heaven all those who have never heard the gospel, through no fault of their own, but who were faithful to the light they had, whatever that light may have been. These will here about Jesus for the first time in heaven and at that time will give Him the glory for saving them.

Why not simply quote or cite the Bible verses in Acts or wherever that show that the gospel was proclaimed in the way you've described?

I have no problem with Jack Sequeira's understanding. I agree with him on that point.

I am merely asking for evidence that the gospel was preached in the early church to the effect that people have already been justified and saved before they were born. Maybe there is no evidence of that. Can the evidence for this be found in the preaching of Peter or Paul or Silas, etc.?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Jack

Further, because God has actually redeemed the entire human race in Christ, He can take to heaven all those who have never heard the gospel, through no fault of their own, but who were faithful to the light they had, whatever that light may have been. These will here about Jesus for the first time in heaven and at that time will give Him the glory for saving them.

Wherever there is an impulse of love and sympathy, wherever the heart reaches out to bless and uplift others, there is revealed the working of God’s Holy Spirit. In the depths of heathenism, men who have had no knowledge of the written law of God, who have never even heard the name of Christ, have been kind to His servants, protecting them at the risk of their own lives. Their acts show the working of a divine power. The Holy Spirit has implanted the grace of Christ in the heart of the savage, quickening his sympathies contrary to his nature, contrary to his education. The “Light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world” (John 1:9), is shining in his soul; and this light, if heeded, will guide his feet to the kingdom of God. [COL 385]

Those are all good, and I agree with them.

Again, I am asking for clear Bible evidence that in the NT, and specifically, in the book of Acts, the gospel is proclaimed in a way that teaches all humanity has been justified and saved before people were born.

This is important because it goes to the issue of how God wants us to proclaim the gospel. Should we pattern our proclamation after the NT, or should we invent a new paradigm for preaching the Good News? In other words, does God want us to tell people, "You are already justified and saved. All you need to do is accept that fact"?

Is that how you believe the church ought to preach and teach the Good News? Is that how you do it personally?

[Robert]

I am simply asking for evidence that the gospel was preached in the early church to the effect that people have already been justified and saved before they were born. Maybe there is no evidence of that.

I'm more acquainted with Paul's writing, so I'll stick with his letters....

What does the law require of you, John?

1] You must obey me in every detail with no mistakes,

2] but if you fail to obey me, even in one point, you must die the 2nd death.

Now are you telling me that when you believed the above two requirements became true? If so, when did you obey the law perfectly and when did you die the 2nd death for your failure to do so?

Now we can get down to the real issues....

Rob