SS#10 "Women of Mission"--Central Study Hour is banned this Sabbath?

[Ilovenaomi22]

Hi Ray thanx for responding to my post it's good to have open dialogue. However there are two things from your points that need clarification.

I also have studied and read Hebrew and Greek and even if the word is Holy as suggested (although quite frankly I am away from my books at the moment and I doubt that this translation is correct) It would make no sense in the passage since Holy is used to describe both men and women in Old testament and the new also the context of the passage has nothing to do with the Temple but rather the statutes of living in Israel(this is also the reason your translation is questionable)

Second What Biblical example do you have for a prophet's call being negated because of human anointing? Paul was and is considered a prophet yet he was one of the early Christians to be anointed by the Church. Your argument about EGW seems based on opinion especially since we have a record of her being Ordained by the Church. I would really like further explanation as to how the churches anointing negates her calling.

The Bible is clear on what being anointed pertains to, and from every example I have seen in the Scriptures It's the Community acknowledging what God is doing in his work among his workers. Paul and Barnabas were anointed by the church only after they showed the works of God manifest in there lives.

[John317]

Quote:

To answer your question, we would need to talk specifically about a particular quote and not about generalities.

Ahhh. Then you are saying that sometimes either can be true? There is no universal rule? It depends upon the quote.

About the "shut door" in relation to Ellen White's gift of prophecy, my comment was that,"She never claimed that the messages from God taught that the 'shut door' teaching was a true doctrine. In fact, it was as a result of visions that she was led to see that the 'shut door' concept was wrong."

If you want to go beyond that and draw conclusions or arrive at principles on the basis of the statement, you're free to do it, of course.

But if we have studied the writings of Ellen White, we know that early on in the work of Ellen White, she had some misunderstandings that she had to unlearn, and one of these was the popular concept among the Millerites of "the shut door."

However, Ellen White didn't write any error because of this belief, and she never claimed that God confirmed by a vision "the shut door" theory.

[Woody]

Quote:

However, Ellen White didn't write any error because of this belief, and she never claimed that God confirmed by a vision "the shut door" theory.

So then ... unless she says that the Lord has confirmed each of her statements individually ... then we can assume that they are not from God? How is it that we can know which of her statements are from God and which of her statements are not?

[rush4hire]

I watched that video and it was actually pretty good, though I thought it would be dull. The information was well presented. It was very balenced, seeing all sides of the issue.

There is no reason to ban this video.

I'm sure the other ones are just as good:

Agents of Hope: God's Great Missionaries

One more thing. This caught my attention:

"No woman of the sons of Israel is to be ordained (quadesh),

No woman of the sons of Israel is to be ordained.

No male of the sons of Israel is to be ordained,

No male of the sons of Israel is to be ordained."

Deuteronomy 23:17

[Bravus]

So, do we know at all whether this 'ban' was real? Or do we have an 8 page thread sparked by a lie?

[Bravus]

And nice work, rush4hire, on that check of the meaning of the words. I think everyone can agree that women shouldn't be ordained... as temple prostitutes!

[John317]

Quote:

However, Ellen White didn't write any error because of this belief, and she never claimed that God confirmed by a vision "the shut door" theory.

So then ... unless she says that the Lord has confirmed each of her statements individually ... then we can assume that they are not from God? How is it that we can know which of her statements are from God and which of her statements are not?

I've already said what I think about the relationship between the so-called Shut Door theory and Ellen White's prophetic gift. If you have other conclusions to draw, then draw them and let us know. I don't really have anything more to add unless you draw a conclusion from the shut-door theory that I believe is unwarranted or invalid. But you first have to explain what you believe, and then we can discuss it from that point if you like.

[John317]

So, do we know at all whether this 'ban' was real? Or do we have an 8 page thread sparked by a lie?

I have no idea but like you I would love to get to the bottom of it.

I have a sister in Tennessee who said she watched it but I am not sure if she was home watching it on 3abn or at the church when she saw it.

I'll do some research and post it here as soon as I've found out for sure whether it was ever banned anywhere. I hope not.

[Peace]

I don't think EG White was ever ordained as someone earlier had mentioned.

[John317]

I don't think EG White was ever ordained as someone earlier had mentioned.

Source: http://letstalk.adventist.org/q_a/adventist_life/ellen_white.html

In 1909 Mrs. White filled out a “Biographical Information Blank” for the General Conference. Item 19 asked, “If ordained, state when, where, and by whom.” On the line next to this, she merely wrote an X. She put one other X on the blank, in answer to Item 26: “If remarried, give date, and to whom.” We know that she never remarried after James White’s death, so the X clearly means, “No, this doesn’t apply to me.”

Similarly, we may conclude by her own testimony that she was not ordained. Yet from 1871 on, the church issued her the credentials of an ordained minister, even though she was not ordained. On some of the credentials the word “ordained” was neatly crossed out, but on others it was not. Apparently the church leaders wished to acknowledge her gift with the highest credentials the church had, even while they recognized that these were not a perfect fit. Mrs. White never exercised any of the distinctive functions of an ordained minister.

In 1881 the General Conference considered a resolution to allow ordaining women to the gospel ministry, but the resolution did not pass. It was referred to committee, where it died. Two recent General Conference sessions considered aspects of the issue again, but in both cases the motions were defeated by substantial majorities. Many delegates expressed concern over whether the practice was in harmony with the Bible’s instruction regarding church leadership. Just as Mrs. White was not ordained, the church does not ordain women to the gospel ministry today.

[rush4hire]

I've already said what I think about the relationship between the so-called Shut Door theory and Ellen White's prophetic gift. If you have other conclusions to draw, then draw them and let us know. I don't really have anything more to add unless you draw a conclusion from the shut-door theory that I believe is unwarranted or invalid. But you first have to explain what you believe, and then we can discuss it from that point if you like.

I haven't taken time to sort through all the dialog on this topic, but I know the Bible prophets said things that where not right, but then they where corrected by God and they came back and gave the more accurate interpretation.

Paul said people on the ship would die, then he came back and said no one would die:

[color:#BF0000]Acts 27:10 And said unto them, Sirs, I perceive that this voyage will be with hurt and much damage, not only of the lading and ship, but also of our lives.

.....

27:22 And now I exhort you to be of good cheer: for there shall be no loss of [any man's] life among you, but of the ship.

27:23 For there stood by me this night the angel of God, whose I am, and whom I serve,

27:24 Saying, Fear not, Paul; thou must be brought before Caesar: and, lo, God hath given thee all them that sail with thee.

Nathan told David to go ahead and build the temple, then came back and told him he would not build the temple:

[color:#BF0000]2 Sam. 7:2 That the king said unto Nathan the prophet, See now, I dwell in an house of cedar, but the ark of God dwelleth within curtains.

7:3 And Nathan said to the king, Go, do all that [is] in thine heart; for the LORD [is] with thee.

7:4 And it came to pass that night, that the word of the LORD came unto Nathan, saying,

7:5 Go and tell my servant David, Thus saith the LORD, Shalt thou build me an house for me to dwell in?

....

7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

7:13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

Even a prophet can recant. And should, if he realizes he was wrong. Ellen White did explain that she understood things better than before, when everyone believed that probation had closed on the world and they where waiting for Jesus to come. That doesn't mean she's less of a prophet than Paul or Nathan and probably every one of them, who's recantations where just never published.

[John317]

That's right, prophets are people too, of course. They have feelings and personal opinions just like anyone else.

What happened to Nathan in your illustration also happened to Ellen White. She gave her opinion to someone concerning the building of a structure, then she had to go back and tell them that God had shown her in vision that she had been wrong.

Did that mean she was a false prophet? I don't see how that would show she was not a true prophet. At first she wasn't telling anyone that God had given her a special answer for them about the structure. She was simply giving them her private advice the same as any one else might. She did not write her advice out as a testimony.

In the case of the shut door, Ellen White never wrote that God showed her the door of mercy was shut from then on to all the world. She thought it was for a while because that was the popular opinion of that time among the Millerites. But as I said before, her belief about the Shut Door never became a part of her writings. In fact, it was her visions that corrected her beliefs about the Shut Door, because she saw that there was still a lot of work yet to do for the salvation of mankind. I think it needs to be remembered that she was already working to bring the gospel of Christ to people at the very time that she had the visions, a fact which shows that she understood that the Door of Mercy was still open to those who hadn't rejected the truth.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

However, Ellen White didn't write any error because of this belief, and she never claimed that God confirmed by a vision "the shut door" theory.

So then ... unless she says that the Lord has confirmed each of her statements individually ... then we can assume that they are not from God? How is it that we can know which of her statements are from God and which of her statements are not?

I've already said what I think about the relationship between the so-called Shut Door theory and Ellen White's prophetic gift. If you have other conclusions to draw, then draw them and let us know. I don't really have anything more to add unless you draw a conclusion from the shut-door theory that I believe is unwarranted or invalid. But you first have to explain what you believe, and then we can discuss it from that point if you like.

Okay ... to further explain ... I am talking about a policy or method of interpreting any and all of her writings ... not just the shut door issue. What I hear you saying is that unless she says the Lord has confirmed her statements .... then they are just HER ideas and beliefs and subject to error. Or are you saying that this methodology is unique only with the shut door issue?

[John317]

... What I hear you saying is that unless she says the Lord has confirmed her statements .... then they are just HER ideas and beliefs and subject to error. Or are you saying that this methodology is unique only with the shut door issue?

I don't think she must say that the Lord has confirmed her statements in order for us to believe them to be true. If that were the case, we would not know if much that she wrote is true or not.

A rule of thumb for me would be if she writes something as a message to be received by the church, then it is true. If she simply gives her opinion of something as a private person, which of course she did at times, that is a totally different matter. Ellen White talked about those differences.

I'm not aware of anything Ellen White wrote that reflects a mistaken view about the Shut Door or about salvation in general.

[Woody]

I don't think EG White was ever ordained as someone earlier had mentioned.

Yes. Ellen White was ordained as a minister. The 1887 General Conference delegates voted approval for this action. They did not place any limits on her such as: no baptism or doing communion. These restrictions have been placed upon Ellen White by revisionists.

[Nightingale]

"Ellen White's name was among those voted to receive papers of the ordained ministers, although her ordination was not by the laying on of hands by men."

The Lonely Years. Pg 377

I don't believe there is any record of Ellen White ever baptising or leading out in communion.

[Nightingale]

In the SDA church today there are many who carry a "ministerial lisence" who are not ordained as pastors. They are Bible teachers, Bible workers, and hospital chaplins for example. Likely this was the type of "papers" Ellen White received. It is not recorded that Ellen White requested these papers.

[Woody]

If she didn't want them then they would have not have continued year after year ... conference after conference and GC after GC. And she would not have signed them.

Am I to believe that she had no power but to accept them year after year and that at the GC session ... she just quietly voted NO on her ordination?