Of how much sorer punishment?

[rush4hire]

I was shocked when I saw this:

Originally Posted By: Anonymous 2

Number 15:32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses.

Hmmm?

[/quote']

I asked my Sabbath School class, how they could reconcile the God of the Old Testament who sent the angel of death to Egypt and to Pharoahs household, to the Christ of the New Testament who show such love to everyone....the silence was deafening..

It is a hard thing to understand...

It seems this one got left hanging without a good explanation. It's left looking like an insinuation against God, as if God actually made the Sabbath a burden by having people stoned to death for willfully breaking the Sabbath.

Is the punishment for presumptuous sin more severe now, or less severe?

[color:#BF0000]Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

It says that a much sorer punishment is given for those who pick up sticks in the Sabbath today, than back then.

That guy that was picking up sticks on the Sabbath despised God's law:

[color:#BF0000]Num. 15:28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly,

15:30 But the soul that doeth [ought] presumptuously, [whether he be] born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

15:31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity [shall be] upon him.

15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.

If you despise the Ten Commandments, you reproach your Creator.

So what is this sorer punishment?

[color:#BF0000]2 Thes. 2:9 [Even him], whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Now God gives you over to strong delusion. This is a fate worse than death. If you are stoned to death, and die in your sins, you come up on the 2nd resurrection and are burned up and suffer for the sins of your short lifetime.

If you are given over to strong delusion, your heart is permanently hardened against the truth. No one can ever convince you. You can not get right with God. You will be at war against God and His saints. You will seduce others into that delusion. You will spend the rest of your life storing up wrath for yourself against the judgment. The 2nd death will be much worse for you than if you had been stoned to death.

There are people alive today that are permanently deceived. God knows they will never be convinced no matter what anyone does. They are the living dead.

The death sentence was given for those who would never repent. If a person is hardened beyond the point of no return, then what is the purpose of allowing him to live any longer to store up more wrath for himself.

And when people are stoned to death, others will fear and will not be so presumptuous. Then there won't be any strong delusion to get mixed up in. Strong delusion is worse than death, for it makes you an abomination and provides a force that seduces others.

Then if a mistake was made, and someone dies, though they are able to repent and, like the thief on the cross, give glory to God and confess that they deserved to die, then they would go right to heaven, like the thief.

[color:#BF0000]Luke 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

Acts 25:11 For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die

That's what it comes down to. Life or death.

[color:#BF0000]Jer. 21:8 Behold, I set before you the way of life, and the way of death.

Obey your Creator and live. Obey Satan and die. That's the way it is still to this day. Do you think you can choose sin and live? If you harden your heart in presumption, it will be much worse for you than being stoned to death.

On the up side, there is strong delusion, but there is also an increase in knowledge. The more knowledge of God you have, the more power you have to resist temptation, though the temptations be stronger.

If anyone disagrees, than give your interpretation.

[B Humble]

"So what is this sorer punishment?" There are degrees of punishment in the judgment. Some punishments are worse than others, but they are all bad. You'll remember that each man is rewarded "according to his works". The more terrible the works are, the sorer the punishment for those that do not repent.

In this life, we see the same thing. The worse the crime(s), the sorer the punishment. As it is written, the things of God are clearly shown by the things which are seen ( paraphrase of the Epistle of Romans)

Thus, Christ can say, "it will be better for Sodom and Gomorrah than for this city". And Paul, says "how much sorer punishment.." would be given to those who refuse Christ's words from heaven, than those who refused Moses' words. It is a worse sin to refuse to hear Christ, than Moses. Therefore, we should all stand and tremble before the Lord always.

[rush4hire]

Very well put. That's exactly my point. People are punished according to how wicked their works are. Now look at this.

But the greater the light and the plainer the danger signal, the greater the condemnation of those will be who turn from light to darkness. The words of Christ are too serious in their import to be disregarded. {CS 137.1}

So under Moses, if you despise God's law and become a walking abomination, you die. How wicked are your works? Not that wicked, because your life was cut short.

Now under Christ, if you despise God's law and become a walking abomination, you live, but you are given over to strong delusion. Now how wicked are your works? Very wicked. Your life is not cut short, so you go on in your delusion multiplying abominations, and eventually you will be murdering God's people. That's great wickedness.

The greater the light rejected, the greater the condemnation.

[cricket]

Reminds me of a sermon I once heard where an Adventist pastor said that teens and young adults will turn from their upbringing and go ahead with doing drugs (smoking, alcohol, heroine, cocaine), but they'd NEVER stoop to eating pork.

[aldona]

Coming back to the original scenario in the first post, we are still left with the same questions...

How do we reconcile a loving God with the command to stone someone to death for gathering sticks on the Sabbath?

Especially since the law had only recently been given, and thus we can assume that the community was only just learning what it meant to keep the Sabbath holy.

(The fact that the man was kept in custody because the leaders were not clear on what should be done to him, supports the view that this was a fairly new offence and they had not prosecuted many like this before.)

The example of the manna not spoiling over the Sabbath is another lesson that the Israelites were given to help them understand what the Sabbath was all about. Why were the people who went out to look for manna on the Sabbath not treated in the same way as the man in this account?

How are we to make the Sabbath a delight if this scenario is in the back of our minds?

aldona

[LifeHiscost]

The greater the light rejected, the greater the condemnation.

However it seems worth noting that the condemnation does not come from our Father.

"For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. " John 3:17 NKJV

"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Matthew 12:37 KJV

"And David’s heart condemned him after he had numbered the people" 2 Samuel 24:10 NKJV

"If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me" Job 9:20 KJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

How are we to make the Sabbath a delight if this scenario is in the back of our minds?

aldona

Whenever there are scenarios difficult for me to understand the love of God in the light of His actions, I go back to what He did in order to save sinners (transgressors). Then, underlying that with the platform of universal safety, ie: God is Love, and what Love did in order to save those who were His enemies, I can only say my understanding is deficient, not God's willingness or capacity to redeem my soul, even if that redemption is based on a day of rest.

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest." Matthew 11:28 KJV

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:16 NASB

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Romans 5:8 KJV

"God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God." 2 Corinthians 5:21 TNIV

Regards!

[Robert]

Is the punishment for presumptuous sin more severe now, or less severe?

[color:#BF0000]Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

It says that a much sorer punishment is given for those who pick up sticks in the Sabbath today, than back then.

That guy that was picking up sticks on the Sabbath despised God's law:

Hey, dude....Get a reality check. The context of Hebrews 10 isn't about law breaking...it's about rejecting the gospel.

You still don't have an answer, do you Mr. legalist?

Rob

[rush4hire]

Coming back to the original scenario in the first post, we are still left with the same questions...

How do we reconcile a loving God with the command to stone someone to death for gathering sticks on the Sabbath?

Especially since the law had only recently been given, and thus we can assume that the community was only just learning what it meant to keep the Sabbath holy.

(The fact that the man was kept in custody because the leaders were not clear on what should be done to him, supports the view that this was a fairly new offence and they had not prosecuted many like this before.)

The example of the manna not spoiling over the Sabbath is another lesson that the Israelites were given to help them understand what the Sabbath was all about. Why were the people who went out to look for manna on the Sabbath not treated in the same way as the man in this account?

How are we to make the Sabbath a delight if this scenario is in the back of our minds?

aldona

They never picked up manna because the manna wasn't there on the Sabbath, so to charge them with picking up manna on the Sabbath, would not have been right. They might have been just looking to see if it was true that there was no manna.

The manna is seen at the beginning of Numbers 11. The man was put to death for the sticks at the end of Numbers 15. Alot had happened between those chapters.

We'll come back to that. Let's look at a very similar case.

We know we must call on the name of the Lord to maintain a relationship with God. We say: "Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.", (Matt. 6:10). If you take the Lord's name in vain, you can't say that prayer with a strait face. We want to have a prayer life. We want to go forth in the name of the Lord. We expect God to protect and bless us for His name's sake. So it's natural for us to have great respect for the name of the Lord, and it's natural for us to cringe when we hear people use the name of our God as a cuss word:

[color:#BF0000]Psalms 139:19 Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men.

139:20 For they speak against thee wickedly, [and] thine enemies take [thy name] in vain.

139:21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

139:22 I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

So how do we do this, knowing a man was also stoned to death for cursing the name of his God:

[color:#BF0000]Lev. 24:10 And the son of an Israelitish woman, whose father [was] an Egyptian, went out among the children of Israel: and this son of the Israelitish [woman] and a man of Israel strove together in the camp;

24:11 And the Israelitish woman's son blasphemed the name [of the LORD], and cursed. And they brought him unto Moses....

24:12 And they put him in ward, that the mind of the LORD might be showed them.

24:13 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

24:14 Bring forth him that hath cursed without the camp; and let all that heard [him] lay their hands upon his head, and let all the congregation stone him.

24:15 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin.

24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, [and] all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name [of the LORD], shall be put to death.

24:23 And Moses spake to the children of Israel, that they should bring forth him that had cursed out of the camp, and stone him with stones. And the children of Israel did as the LORD commanded Moses.

God gave us His name. We treat His name with respect.

God gave us the Sabbath. We recognize the Sabbath is holy time.

God gave us marriage. Any thing that defies the sanctity of marriage is adultery.

So the comparison is easily seen.

It's probably not the first time this man cursed the name of God. It was probably his habit, but it wasn't public until the fight. The man picking up sticks was probably trying to make a statement, accusing God of putting them in bondage. He was probably picking up sticks every Sabbath.

They showed contempt for the Law of God and rebellion against their Maker.

We must also assume that for both these men, when they where in the ward, there was no attempt to repent or make confession. They where hardened. They didn't feel bad for what they did. They probably thought they would be released. We know what pride does to people. Pride and unbelief caused these men to justify themselves.

Look at the case of Achan:

[color:#BF0000]Josh. 7:16 So Joshua rose up early in the morning, and brought Israel by their tribes; and the tribe of Judah was taken:

7:17 And he brought the family of Judah; and he took the family of the Zarhites: and he brought the family of the Zarhites man by man; and Zabdi was taken:

7:18 And he brought his household man by man; and Achan, the son of Carmi, the son of Zabdi, the son of Zerah, of the tribe of Judah, was taken.

7:19 And Joshua said unto Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession unto him; and tell me now what thou hast done; hide [it] not from me.

7:20 And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done:

7:21 When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them; and, behold, they [are] hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it.

His window of opportunity to confess was before he was pin-pointed, before or during the selection process. I suppose he was hoping the casting of lots was just for show, to convince the people that God was going to point out the traitor, that some random guy would be selected and would bear the blame. Or that maybe he wasn't the only one that took stuff, and another guy that took stuff would be picked.

So he didn't confess any more than Judas confessed, after probation had closed on him and his fate was sealed.

[color:#BF0000]Matt. 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood....

27:5 And he .... went and hanged himself.

Also we see a failure to confess in Acts 5.

[color:#BF0000]Acts 5:8 And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

5:9 Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband [are] at the door, and shall carry thee out.

5:10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost:

That's the loving God of the New Covenant that we are to reconcile with. He would have been justified if He would have let us all perish in our sins.

We must justify God and be assured that in the judgment, we will know all the tragedy God saved His people from in condemning those He condemned. We already can see the result of letting Cain live. Through Cain's apostasy, the rebellion got so bad that the wicked where able to seduce God's elect, and would have seduced or destroyed all of God's people if God had not interposed by destroying them with a flood. We see what happened when God allowed the Papacy to prosper wonderfully, how this has hindered Christianity much more than the persecution from the Pagans and has seduced many with doctrines of devils, and will seek once again to wipe God's remnant from the face of the earth.

[LifeHiscost]

That's the loving God of the New Covenant that we are to reconcile with. He would have been justified if He would have let us all perish in our sins.

We must justify God and be assured that in the judgment, we will know all the tragedy God saved His people from in condemning those He condemned. We already can see the result of letting Cain live. Through Cain's apostasy, the rebellion got so bad that the wicked where able to seduce God's elect, and would have seduced or destroyed all of God's people if God had not interposed by destroying them with a flood. We see what happened when God allowed the Papacy to prosper wonderfully, how this has hindered Christianity much more than the persecution from the Pagans and has seduced many with doctrines of devils, and will seek once again to wipe God's remnant from the face of the earth.

Well put.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD." Isaiah 55:8 KJV

Regards!

[Robert]

Blah, blah, blah....

Let me help you, rushNOT4hire:

Gal 3:10 "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

Under law it doesn't matter how you fail, you must die. That's why believers have been delivered from the law.

The man gathering sticks on the Sabbath, well, the law says if you break one command you've broken all of them.

If you love yourself, than according to the law you must die. In fact if you are not living Christ' life (which answered the whole law), well, then you must die.

Rob