Was Alberto Rivera for real? Or was he a liar?

[carolaa]

(Adventist Review article on evolutioin)

C O V E R S T O R Y

BY JONATHAN GALLAGHER

Can you prove evolution? No. Can you prove creation? No. Can you use the intellect God has given you to decide whether something is logical or illogical? Yes, absolutely. It all comes down to "faith"--and I don't have enough to believe in evolution. I'm too logical!

_________________________

*Ben Carson is the director of pediatric neurosurgery at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, Maryland.

_________________________

Jonathan Gallagher is the United Nations liaison for the Seventh-day Adventist Church, with headquarters in Silver Spring, Maryland.

I think I read that article a while back. It's a great article. Makes a lot of sense to me. And I have a lot of respect for Ben Carson.

But it shows we simply have a difference of beliefs with some people - not that anyone lied.

[John317]

Of course. No question.

[John317]

Obviously, I share your concerns. But it doesn't take away from the fact that no one has come up with a lie that the Catholic Church has come up with in the last 100-200 years, or even before that. That's the only point I was trying to make, because the claim was made that they lie, and yet there is no proof of that since the Dark Ages.

I understand you. I haven't much studied the issue of current lies like the ones referred to, so I can't give an answer. All I know is that we have enough lies in the false doctrines, and those are the ones that the Bible concentrates on because they destroy millions of people spiritually.

On the other hand, if Ellen White's statements in GC are to be believed-- and I believe they are-- then we shouldn't surprised if some of those things are happening.

Have you read of or heard of Malachi Martin's book, The Jesuits? Or: The Keys of This Blood? Malachi Martin was a very highly respected scholar and writer who had been a Jesuit professor in Rome for decades. I'm reading The Keys book right now. Later I plan to read The Jesuits, which I see often at Barnes and Noble.

[carolaa]

Whether the Catholic Church (a) lies or ( has different doctrines are quite different issues from whether the Catholic Church has Jesuit secret agents in Protestant churches trying to destroy them, and on this forum attacking Adventist doctrines.

Yes, you're right. I got off on a tangent. It's hard for me to let those kinds of wild accusations just go by, especially when it is divisive and not necessary to the discussion at hand. I mean, yeah, we know, historically, they told some whoppers that have been easily disproved. But we need to recognize that was 500 years ago, and we need to understand the difference between lies and differences of opinion/doctrine. My feeling is, if a person can't back up their argument better than that, they're on pretty shaky ground. If they stick to what is solid, they're more likely to convince me.

[Kountzer]

Yes. I have both books. I need to start re reading Keys of this blood. In it the catholic church plainly states that their goal is to set up a one world government with the RCC at the head.

The writer of the book, Malachi Martin, was a vatican insider. His book had the impremator of the RCC.

[John317]

Yes, The Keys of This Blood is a remarkable book because when he began writing it, we were still in the Cold War, and the USSR was still a superpower. In the book, Keys of This Blood, Malachi Martin tells us of John Paul's plan to take down the USSR, which would then leave only the USA and the Papacy as the major powers in the West.

We know today that it was Reagan and the Pope who got together twice and planned the downfall of the Iron Curtain. That has been written up in Time magazine several times. Even Gorbochav has stated a number of times that it would not have happened without John Paul II. All of this happened AFTER The Keys was published.

The book goes on to discuss the plan of the Papacy to use the USA in order to gain even greater influence in the world. Martin mentions the interest the Papacy has in churches such as the Seventh-day Adventists. We are mentioned at least twice in the book.

By the way, Malachi Martin was a friend of the Vatican and the papacy. He was not writing about these powers as something evil. As you yourself pointed out, Martin was an acknowledged expert on the Vatican and on the Jesuits, having been an insider in both for many years. Therefore it cannot reasonably be said that the book is fanciful and sensationalistic.

The Keys is also a book heavy with political philosophy and discussions about Marxist theory.

[Bill Cork]

>>But is there an independent, un-bias investigation? No one is surprised they would drum up a bunch of fake information. But I have seen the Catholic church publish so many bold lies, that's it's just ridiculous. Who do you trust? Who has any credibility? If anyone on earth does, it's not the Roman Catholic Church.

Cornerstone is not a Catholic publication; it is evangelical. Gary Metz, the investigator, also wrote an article on this for Christianity Today.

Is Jack Chick a credible source? That's the question here. And these independent evangelical publications looked at the evidence and said, no.

[Kountzer]

Reading books by Malachi Martin and articles by George F Will expands the vocabulary considerably.

DB

[rush4hire]

I've been wanting to read those books by Malachi Martin. I've heard alot about them. Here are his other books:

1958 - The Scribal Character of the Dead Sea Scrolls

1964 - The Pilgrim, (under pseudonym: Michael Serafian)

1969 - The Encounter

1972 - Three Popes and the Cardinal

1873 - Jesus Now

1978 - The Final Conclave

1980 - King of Kings: a Novel

1981 - The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church

1984 - The New Castle; Reaching for the Ultimate

1984 - Rich Church, Poor Church

1984 - There is Still Love

1986 - Hostage to the Devil: The Possession and Exorcism of Five Living Americans

1986 - Vatican: a Novel

1987 - The Jesuits: The Society of Jesus and the Betrayal of the Roman Catholic Church

1990 - The Keys of This Blood: The Struggle for World Dominion between Pope John Paul II, Mikhail Gorbachev, and the Capitalist West

1996 - Windswept House

These look very interesting.

Here's a nice sample, called "Young People's History of the Sabbath". It's for children, but there is good information for adults, and it's a clever presentation.

Part 1

Part 2

Part 3

(Just download all 3 and then unzip it with winrar. It's a split archive because the max file size for rapidshare is 100 MB.)

I've said quite a bit about Jim Arrabito. I listed the videos by him in this post. I have a hard time denying the testimony of this man. He was a very knowledgeable historian and spoke on many topics.

In other videos, Jim Arrabito exposes other lies of the Roman Catholic Church, like in "The Lost Pages of Christian History", which is about the Waldenses. They say the Waldenses where started in the 1500s by Peter Waldo. Peter Waldo was just the guy that discovered them and they named the people Waldenses after Peter Waldo. They said that the Waldenses never kept the Sabbath. They make it look like all Christianity kept Sunday since the Apostles. We know that's not true. History shows much evidence to the contrary.

http://www.sabbathtruth.com/history/sabbath_history1.asp

[rush4hire]

There and many more lies are still being affirmed the the Roman Catholic Church. It is their custom to re-write history to their own interests:

Quote:

The history of God's people during the ages of darkness that followed upon Rome's supremacy is written in heaven, but they have little place in human records. Few traces of their existence can be found, except in the accusations of their persecutors. It was the policy of Rome to obliterate every trace of dissent from her doctrines or decrees. Everything heretical, whether persons or writings, she sought to destroy. Expressions of doubt, or questions as to the authority of papal dogmas, were enough to forfeit the life of rich or poor, high or low. Rome endeavored also to destroy every record of her cruelty toward dissenters. Papal councils decreed that books and writings containing such records should be committed to the flames. Before the invention of printing, books were few in number, and in a form not favorable for preservation; therefore there was little to prevent the Romanists from carrying out their purpose. {GC 61.2}

No church within the limits of Romish jurisdiction was long left undisturbed in the enjoyment of freedom of conscience. No sooner had the papacy obtained power than she stretched out her arms to crush all that refused to acknowledge her sway, and one after another the churches submitted to her dominion. {GC 62.1}

Well now they can't alter the record of history by just burning books, so they have more clever deceptions. If anyone believes Rome is more honest now than in the Dark Ages, they are in denial. Prophecy seems to suggest the opposite, that the Papacy gets less and less honest until the 2nd coming.

Quote:

Romanism is now regarded by Protestants with far greater favor than in former years. In those countries where Catholicism is not in the ascendancy, and the papists are taking a conciliatory course in order to gain influence, there is an increasing indifference concerning the doctrines that separate the reformed churches from the papal hierarchy; the opinion is gaining ground that, after all, we do not differ so widely upon vital points as has been supposed, and that a little concession on our part will bring us into a better understanding with Rome. The time was when Protestants placed a high value upon the liberty of conscience which had been so dearly purchased. They taught their children to abhor popery and held that to seek harmony with Rome would be disloyalty to God. But how widely different are the sentiments now expressed! {GC 563.1}

The defenders of the papacy declare that the church has been maligned, and the Protestant world are inclined to accept the statement. Many urge that it is unjust to judge the church of today by the abominations and absurdities that marked her reign during the centuries of ignorance and darkness. They excuse her horrible cruelty as the result of the barbarism of the times and plead that the influence of modern civilization has changed her sentiments. {GC 563.2}

.....

The papal church will never relinquish her claim to infallibility. All that she has done in her persecution of those who reject her dogmas she holds to be right; and would she not repeat the same acts, should the opportunity be presented?Let the restraints now imposed by secular governments be removed and Rome be reinstated in her former power, and there would speedily be a revival of her tyranny and persecution. {GC 564.2}

A well-known writer speaks thus of the attitude of the papal hierarchy as regards freedom of conscience, and of the perils which especially threaten the United States from the success of her policy: {GC 564.3}

"There are many who are disposed to attribute any fear of Roman Catholicism in the United States to bigotry or childishness. Such see nothing in the character and attitude of Romanism that is hostile to our free institutions, or find nothing portentous in its growth. Let us, then, first compare some of the fundamental principles of our government with those of the Catholic Church. {GC 564.4}

"The Constitution of the United States guarantees liberty of conscience. Nothing is dearer or more fundamental. Pope Pius IX, in his Encyclical Letter of August 15, 1854, said: `The absurd and erroneous doctrines or ravings in defense of liberty of conscience are a most pestilential error--a pest, of all others, most to be dreaded in a state.' The same pope, in his Encyclical Letter of December 8, 1864, anathematized `those who assert the liberty of conscience and of religious worship,' also 'all such as maintain that the church may not employ force.' {GC 564.5}

"The pacific tone of Rome in the United States does not imply a change of heart. She is tolerant where she is helpless. Says Bishop O'Connor: 'Religious liberty is merely endured until the opposite can be carried into effect without peril to the Catholic world.'. . . The archbishop of St. Louis once said: 'Heresy and unbelief are crimes; and in Christian countries, as in Italy and Spain, for instance, where all the people are Catholics, and where the Catholic religion is an essential part of the law of the land, they are punished as other crimes.'. . . {GC 565.1}

"Every cardinal, archbishop, and bishop in the Catholic Church takes an oath of allegiance to the pope, in which occur the following words: 'Heretics, schismatics, and rebels to our said lord (the pope), or his aforesaid successors, I will to my utmost persecute and oppose.'"--Josiah Strong, Our Country, ch. 5, pars. 2-4. [sEE APPENDIX FOR CORRECTED REFERENCES.] {GC 565.2}

......

But Romanism as a system is no more in harmony with the gospel of Christ now than at any former period in her history. The Protestant churches are in great darkness, or they would discern the signs of the times. The Roman Church is far-reaching in her plans and modes of operation. She is employing every device to extend her influence and increase her power in preparation for a fierce and determined conflict to regain control of the world, to re-establish persecution, and to undo all that Protestantism has done. Catholicism is gaining ground upon every side. See the increasing number of her churches and chapels in Protestant countries. Look at the popularity of her colleges and seminaries in America, so widely patronized by Protestants. Look at the growth of ritualism in England and the frequent defections to the ranks of the Catholics. These things should awaken the anxiety of all who prize the pure principles of the gospel. {GC 565.4}

Protestants have tampered with and patronized popery; they have made compromises and concessions which papists themselves are surprised to see and fail to understand. Men are closing their eyes to the real character of Romanism and the dangers to be apprehended from her supremacy. The people need to be aroused to resist the advances of this most dangerous foe to civil and religious liberty. {GC 566.1}

....

God's word has given warning of the impending danger; let this be unheeded, and the Protestant world will learn what the purposes of Rome really are, only when it is too late to escape the snare. She is silently growing into power. Her doctrines are exerting their influence in legislative halls, in the churches, and in the hearts of men. She is piling up her lofty and massive structures in the secret recesses of which her former persecutions will be repeated. Stealthily and unsuspectedly she is strengthening her forces to further her own ends when the time shall come for her to strike. All that she desires is vantage ground, and this is already being given her. We shall soon see and shall feel what the purpose of the Roman element is. Whoever shall believe and obey the word of God will thereby incur reproach and persecution. {GC 581.2}

You need to read this whole chapter again, if you are becoming enthralled in the majesty and grandeur of the great whore.

The Great Controversy, Chap. 35 - Liberty of Conscience Threatened

John tells us of the danger of marveling:

[color:#BF0000]Rev. 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel?

Do not listen to her lies. You want examples of lies? Everything she says is a lie as far as you're concerned.

The attempted assassination of the Pope in 1980 was the greatest publicity stunt ever pulled off in the history of this world. Come now, let us reason together. How are the Jesuits going to hire one of the best marksmen in all Europe to completely miss the Pope's vitals at 10 feet away? He was hit in the arm and lower abdominal region, where it's not possible you could die from a gunshot wound. The bullets where probably not even hollow tipped.

It's obvious that that was the intent. To make it look like an assassination attempt, so the whole world would really admire this guy for forgiving the assassin.

[color:#BF0000]Rev. 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

Rev. 13:14 ...that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

I have been mocked and ridiculed to scorn for telling about the lies of the Papacy. Now here we have a problem, a lose-lose situation:

[color:#BF0000]Prov. 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

If you answer the fool, he will make fun of you.

If you don't answer, he thinks he's right.

Either way, you lose.

Those who mock and ridicule the great angel of Revelation 18 will get no further light than that which they have rejected. Any light or warning at all will seem like a joke to them:

[color:#BF0000]Gen. 19:14 ...and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.

God's elect, who are that great angel, will fulfill this prophecy:

Quote:

...the movement symbolized by the angel coming down from heaven, lightening the earth with his glory and crying mightily with a strong voice, announcing the sins of Babylon. .. {GC 604.1}

.. Men of faith and prayer will be constrained to go forth with holy zeal, declaring the words which God gives them. The sins of Babylon will be laid open. .. {GC 606.2}

[color:#BF0000]Rev. 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Those who refuse to come out of Babylon will be accomplice to the murder of millions of prophets and saints of the Most High God.

[carolaa]

You want examples of lies? Everything she says is a lie as far as you're concerned.

/quote]

And yet we are still waiting to hear just one example of a verifiable lie they have told since the Dark Ages.....

[Neil D]

Prov. 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

If you answer the fool, he will make fun of you.

If you don't answer, he thinks he's right.

Either way, you lose.

Ok as you wish, I won't answer you.....

[rush4hire]

Originally Posted By: rush4hire

You want examples of lies? Everything she says is a lie as far as you're concerned.

And yet we are still waiting to hear just one example of a verifiable lie they have told since the Dark Ages...

[rush4hire]

What do you say about all the EGW quotes? Have I taken anything out of context? Why all the silence all of a sudden? People can't say anything now, but I know when these things come up again, many will mock and jest again, as if I had never said anything. This evidence here will be completely ignored.

Has the Papacy been tamed, like Ellen White said it would not be? Should we just go ecumenical like all the other churches? I think we can do so and still keep the Sabbath.. for now... If they are not lying and killing innocent people anymore, then why not?

Neil D says the Jesuits are playing nice now:

Um, so, if I reject that these are current practices, I am rejecting EGW?

I dont think so...

[BobRyan]

More Bible please.

Ellen White was very firm on that point.

Quote:

"There should be no going out of the way to attack other denominations, for

it only creates a combative spirit and closes ears and hearts to the

entrance of the truth... In bearing the message, make no personal thrusts at

other churches, not even the Roman Catholic Church.that thrust may do much

harm and no good." Evangelism 576

[BobRyan]

Quote:

2 Cor 6

3 giving no cause for offense in anything, so that the ministry will not be discredited,

4 but in everything commending ourselves as servants of God, in much endurance, in afflictions, in hardships, in distresses,

5 in beatings, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labors, in sleeplessness, in hunger,

6 in purity, in knowledge, in patience, in kindness, in the Holy Spirit, in genuine love,

7 in the word of truth, in the power of God; by the weapons of righteousness for the right hand and the left,

8 by glory and dishonor, by evil report and good report; regarded as deceivers and yet true;

9 as unknown yet well-known, as dying yet behold, we live; as punished yet not put to death,

10 as sorrowful yet always rejoicing, as poor yet making many rich, as having nothing yet possessing all things.

Lest there be some who think that EGW does not agree with the Bible on that point...

Quote:

EGW

Now the fact that God's people that know the truth have failed to do their duty according to the light given in the Word of God, makes it a necessity for us to be more guarded, lest we offend unbelievers before they have heard the reasons of our faith in regard to the Sabbath and Sunday. . . . {Ev 228.1}

Broaching the Sabbath in New Fields. --The message of truth is new and startling to the people of this country [Australia]. The Bible doctrines presented are as a new revelation, and they really look upon the sentiments advanced as infidelity. In presenting the Sunday question, or the union of church and state, handle it carefully. It will not answer to present the strong positions that have been and will of necessity be presented in America. {Ev 227.2}

Guarding Our Approaches. -- We should not, upon entering a place, build up unnecessary barriers

574

between us and other denominations, especially the Catholics, so that they shall think we are their avowed enemies. We should not create a prejudice in their minds unnecessarily, by making a raid upon them.... From that which God has shown me, a great number will be saved from among the Catholics.--Manuscript 14, 1887. {Ev 573.4}

A Cautious Work. --Be cautious in your labors, brethren, not to assail the prejudices of the people too strongly. There should be no going out of the way to attack other denominations; for it only creates a combative spirit and closes ears and hearts to the entrance of the truth. We have our work to do, which is not to tear down but to build up. We are to repair the breach that has been made in the law of God. It is the nobler work to build up, to present the truth in its force and power and let it cut its way through prejudice and reveal error in contrast with truth. {Ev 574.1}

There is danger that our ministers will say too much against the Catholics and provoke against themselves the strongest prejudices of that church. There are many souls in the Roman Catholic faith who are looking with interest to this people; but the power of the priest over his charges is great, and if he can prejudice the people by his stay-away arguments, so that when the truth is uttered against the fallen churches they may not hear it, he will surely do it. But as laborers together with God, we are provided with spiritual weapons, mighty to the pulling down of the strongholds of the enemy.--Letter 39, 1887. {Ev 574.2}

Avoid Unkind Thrusts.

-- Let not those who write for our papers make unkind thrusts and allusions that will certainly do harm, and that will hedge up the way and hinder us from doing the work that we should do in order to reach all classes, the Catholics included.

575

It is our work to speak the truth in love, and not to mix in with the truth the unsanctified elements of the natural heart, and speak things that savor of the same spirit possessed by our enemies. All sharp thrusts will come back upon us in double measure when the power is in the hands of those who can exercise it for our injury. Over and over the message has been given to me that we are not to say one word, not to publish one sentence, especially by way of personalities, unless positively essential in vindicating the truth, that will stir up our enemies against us, and arouse their passions to a white heat. . . . {Ev 574.3}

It is true that we are commanded to "cry aloud, spare not, lift up the voice like a trumpet, and show My people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins." Isa. 58:1. This message must be given, but while it must be given, we should be careful not to thrust and crowd and condemn those who have not the light that we have. We should not go out of our way to make hard thrusts at the Catholics. Among the Catholics there are many who are most conscientious Christians, and who walk in all the light that shines upon them, and God will work in their behalf. Those who have had great privileges and opportunities, and who have failed to improve their physical, mental, and moral powers, but who have lived to please themselves, and have refused to bear their responsibility, are in greater danger and in greater condemnation before God than those who are in error upon doctrinal points, yet who seek to live to do good to others. Do not censure others; do not condemn them.--Testimonies, vol. 9, pp. 241-244. (1909) {Ev 575.1}

Shutting the Door in Their Faces.

--Preach the truth, but restrain the words which show a harsh spirit; for such words cannot help or enlighten

576

anyone. The Echo is a paper that should be circulated largely. Do not do anything that would hinder its sale. There is no reason why it should not be as a light shining in a dark place. But for Christ's sake heed the admonitions which have been given in regard to making scathing remarks about the Catholics. Many Catholics read the Echo, and among the number there are honest souls who will accept the truth. But there is such a thing as shutting the door in their faces as they are about to enter. Put more cheering testimonies of thanksgiving into the Echo. Do not hedge up its way, and prevent it from going to all parts of the world by making it a medium for hard expressions. Satan rejoices when one word of bitterness is found on its pages.--Counsels to Editors, p. 45. (1896) {Ev 575.2}

[carolaa]

Does anyone else have any confirmed lies published recently by the Papacy? I'm really no expert in these matters. Does anyone have evidence to add?

Are you already satisfied Carolaa? You have said over and over that the Papacy has changed, that she doesn't lie and murder people anymore. Is that not what you where saying?

That's what I was *asking* - for examples of lies they have told recently. Just a little proof, that's all. But you are trying to put words in my mouth. I *never* said the papacy has changed - because I don't know if they have changed. Like I said, I'm not that interested in the subject, but you seem to think your blizzard of words is proof that they have not changed - it is not.

[John317]

More Bible please.

Ellen White was very firm on that point.

Quote:

"There should be no going out of the way to attack other denominations, for

it only creates a combative spirit and closes ears and hearts to the

entrance of the truth... In bearing the message, make no personal thrusts at

other churches, not even the Roman Catholic Church.that thrust may do much

harm and no good." Evangelism 576

I agree and put into practice what Ellen White said here. She practiced what she wrote and preached. Her book GC is a good example. In it will be found no personal attacks or thrusts, but there is a great deal written regarding the truth. For instance, it is not a personal attack to discuss and point out that the papacy was instrumental in the suppression of the Sabbath and in encouraging the church to accept Sunday in its place. The same applies to all of the false doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church. However, there is a right way and right time for these things to be presented. We have a lot in common with Catholics, and I think those common beliefs should be our emphasis most of the time when we are in contact with them. Stress the love of Christ and His promises.

Never should Catholics be personally attacked but that is different from attacking theology and beliefs. It can and should be always done with love. If it can't be, then it would be better to simply show love and be quiet about doctrinal differences.

Almost all of my wife's family are Catholic, and we have never argued about religion, and never will. My wife simply gives them portions of the Desire of Ages and books to read, and they sometimes come to church with us. Two of her sisters were relieved to hear what the Bible teaches about death. These things can be done in love but we first have to have real love for them. If we do have this love, we won't make personal attacks or personal thrusts.

[rush4hire]

@John317

Thank you, again, sir.

@BobRyan

I really do appreciate those quotes. Those are important things to keep in mind.

In evangelism.

But right now, we're not evangelizing. We're having a discussion amongst ourselves.

Quote:

In bearing the message make no personal thrusts at other churches

"bearing the message" is the work of evangelism.

Ellen White did not teach something, she didn't follow herself, and we see countless warnings about the Papacy, alerting us to her wiles, in a well known public book:

Quote:

Romanism is now regarded by Protestants with far greater favor than in former years. In those countries where Catholicism is not in the ascendancy, and the papists are taking a conciliatory course in order to gain influence, there is an increasing indifference concerning the doctrines that separate the reformed churches from the papal hierarchy; the opinion is gaining ground that, after all, we do not differ so widely upon vital points as has been supposed, and that a little concession on our part will bring us into a better understanding with Rome. The time was when Protestants placed a high value upon the liberty of conscience which had been so dearly purchased. They taught their children to abhor popery and held that to seek harmony with Rome would be disloyalty to God. But how widely different are the sentiments now expressed! {GC 563.1}

The defenders of the papacy declare that the church has been maligned, and the Protestant world are inclined to accept the statement. Many urge that it is unjust to judge the church of today by the abominations and absurdities that marked her reign during the centuries of ignorance and darkness. They excuse her horrible cruelty as the result of the barbarism of the times and plead that the influence of modern civilization has changed her sentiments. {GC 563.2}

Have these persons forgotten the claim of infallibility put forth for eight hundred years by this haughty power? So far from being relinquished, this claim was affirmed in the nineteenth century with greater positiveness than ever before. As Rome asserts that the "church never erred; nor will it, according to the Scriptures, ever err" (John L. von Mosheim, Institutes of Ecclesiastical History, book 3, century II, part 2, chapter 2, section 9, note 17), how can she renounce the principles which governed her course in past ages? {GC 564.1}

The papal church will never relinquish her claim to infallibility. All that she has done in her persecution of those who reject her dogmas she holds to be right; and would she not repeat the same acts, should the opportunity be presented? Let the restraints now imposed by secular governments be removed and Rome be reinstated in her former power, and there would speedily be a revival of her tyranny and persecution. {GC 564.2}

She warns about the deceptive allure of her worship service:

Quote:

Many Protestants suppose that the Catholic religion is unattractive and that its worship is a dull, meaningless round of ceremony. Here they mistake. While Romanism is based upon deception, it is not a coarse and clumsy imposture. The religious service of the Roman Church is a most impressive ceremonial. Its gorgeous display and solemn rites fascinate the senses of the people and silence the voice of reason and of conscience. The eye is charmed. Magnificent churches, imposing processions, golden altars, jeweled shrines, choice paintings, and exquisite sculpture appeal to the love of beauty. The ear also is captivated. The music is unsurpassed. The rich notes of the deep-toned organ, blending with the melody of many voices as it swells through the lofty domes and pillared aisles of her grand cathedrals, cannot fail to impress the mind with awe and reverence. {GC 566.2}

This outward splendor, pomp, and ceremony, that only mocks the longings of the sin-sick soul, is an evidence of inward corruption. The religion of Christ needs not such attractions to recommend it. In the light shining from the cross, true Christianity appears so pure and lovely that no external decorations can enhance its true worth. It is the beauty of holiness, a meek and quiet spirit, which is of value with God. {GC 566.3}

And we find strong warnings about many other things.

All this and more warning about the Roman Catholic Church, is all from The Great Controversy. I've sold hundreds of these books to people in their homes. I want them to read these things. I want them to know that the Papacy is still just as bloody today, as she ever was. But I don't attack churches, while I'm evangelizing. I am quite tactful. Otherwise, it wouldn't work.

Warning against the deceptions of the Papacy takes up much of the matter in Revelation and Daniel.

We are tempted like John to admire the Roman Catholic Church:

[color:#BF0000]Rev. 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel?

WAKE UP!

Snap out of it. Why do you marvel? Why so much admiration for this whore who drinks the blood of the saints? Do you think she's so beautiful?

It really is a big topic. It's the whole of the 3rd angel's message, who's glory fills the entire earth.

[color:#BF0000] 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

....

18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

You need to come out. The blood of martyrs is crying from the earth, saying "Babylon is fallen".

[color:#BF0000]Rev. 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Don't share her sins. Don't share that blood:

[color:#BF0000]Matt. 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

If you don't come out of Babylon, you will have to drink blood:

[color:#BF0000]Rev. 16:6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

This is prophecy. This is not attacking a church. If you misapply that admonition and squelch prophesying, then you have a problem:

[color:#BF0000]1 Thes. 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

5:20 Despise not prophesyings.

1 Cor. 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual [gifts], but rather that ye may prophesy.

1 Cor. 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or [one] unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on [his] face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.

Let's look at that verse from Paul:

[color:#BF0000]2 Cor. 6:3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:

This must not apply to the needful things, like how Paul pointed out individuals that Christians needed to watch out for:

[color:#BF0000]2 Tim. 2:16 But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

And there are more things like this.

Are you willing to throw a wrench in the gears of the 3rd angel's message, the loud cry, the last message this world is to receive before 6 billion people die at the 2nd coming of Christ?

Because of a misapplication of counsel?

You can not be saved, if you are not willing to leave the Roman Catholic church. And you will see how bloody she is, if you don't refuse to look at the evidence.

Jesus said you have to be willing to leave everything:

[color:#BF0000]Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Luke 11:6 And blessed is [he], whosoever shall not be offended in me.

[BobRyan]

If the question is - "Do SDAs agree that Daniel 7 points to the 1260 years of Dark Ages and that the little horn of Dan 7 and 8 points to the RCC" I readily agree.

The Bible evidence for identification is pretty easy.

Having said that - we then have that very genteel work to do in presenting this information at the right time to the right person.

Recall what Jesus said to the 12 disciples in John 16 "I have many MORE things to tell you but you CAN NOT bear them now".

In Col 4 we are told to "pray without ceasing" that we might KNOW HOW to respond to EACH person - our words seasoned as it were with salt.

In Col 4 and in Eph 6 Paul asks the saints to "PRAY for us as well that a DOOR may be opened for the word". Ours is not a fire hose model -- it is a person-by-person model where the Spirit gives the red light or the green light for the moment for the person for the topic.

in Christ,

Bob

[rush4hire]

That's great, Bob. I just don't see how any of that applies here.

The topic is "Was Alberto Rivera for real? Or was he a liar?"

What do you say?

[rush4hire]

I'm trying to get people ready for the next Inquisition, and I've been getting laughed at. Getting people ready for something, is a good thing, not an evil thing. It's the loving thing, not the unloving thing.

I plead "NOT GUILTY" to the charge of attacking Catholics, or even the Catholic religion. I have not made fun of Catholics or even the Catholic belief system, or doctrines, or practices. I feel Catholics should have the right to worship however they want, in this country.

But if Catholics say they should have the right to murder innocent people, and to lie about them, and to assassinate their character with a constant harassment of false allegations, like in the case of Tony Alamo, then they should not be allowed to do that.

Is that part of their religion?

If I said that's not right, and should not be allowed, am I making fun of their beliefs?

Shouldn't they be happy they are allowed to practice their religion and get along with others in this country? Do we have to allow them to take over our government to bring it into subjection to the Papacy? If I say we should resist such a conspiracy, then am I attacking them?

Should we sit back and allow them to commandeer the CIA, FBI, and the special forces, to send come out and burn us alive in our bible study groups?

Would I be attacking the Catholic religion if I am against their secret societies that want to manipulate matters from behind the scenes and push our government into passing laws on their behalf?

Quote:

Under various disguises the Jesuits worked their way into offices of state, climbing up to be the counselors of kings, and shaping the policy of nations. {GC 235.1}

There are Catholics I have great respect for. One such man is John F. Kennedy, who tried to alert America of conspiracies that wanted to push him around and make him do things.

[carolaa]

OK, this is progress. Instead of making long lists of Bible verses and other quotations and prophecies, this post is a lot closer to actual proof that I have been asking for. In my opinion, if you want people to hear what you are trying to say, you need to connect the verses and quotes with actual current and historical events. When you can cite examples, it gives you more credibility instead of sounding like a ranting extremist. So this is a big step in the right direction.

[rush4hire]

This is a big sigh of relief for me, Carolaa. I couldn't decide if you where a skeptic or you just really wanted proof.

Really, there is a great deal of proof. The proof is always going to follow the prophecy. The prophecy is the more sure word:

[color:#BF0000]2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.

Rev. 19:10 ..I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

After saying this, the Lord will not allow us to go willy-nilly with our interpretations. That is for those who obey Him and take His Word and His Law seriously. Only those who will not obey will be subject to strange interpretations.

[color:#BF0000]Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words [are] closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

I repeat: none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand

The wise are those who keep God's commandments:

[color:#BF0000]Psalms 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

This a miraculous thing. God allows some to see something, and keeps it from others.

It is our sacred privilege to see these things. To be watchful, and to expect these prophecies to be fulfilled before our eyes.

Therefore, wouldn't it be a pity if we chose not to see? Because of the power of ----> denial

Because of pressure from the -----> papacy

Because of pressure from the -----> crowd of people laughing

So we can be sure, what we see today will match up perfectly with what the prophets have told us.

The Great Controversy is just riddled with forebodings of the Vatican taking over the United States, and all the nations of the world, with the help of the former protestant denominations, who are actually no longer protestants, but are now enthralled to the Pope. They are no longer allowed to teach that the Papacy is the Antichrist. Their spirit has been broken. They have been taken captive by the ecumenical/WCC/charismatic movements.

People laugh when I talk about the Jesuits. But the Jesuits where commissioned for one purpose: to stop Protestantism. And they have all but succeeded already. The churches that are called "Protestant" are no longer protesting. And the nations that have sworn they would never allow the Papacy to take over, are now allowing the Papists to have so much control and to make so many decisions.

People need to have the opportunity to see this. It's part of the 3 angel's message of Rev. 14. It's the loud cry of Rev. 18.

You want to know why these public officials climb so high, so fast?

(I hate to be vulgar, but...)

Because they are in bed with the Papacy:

Clinton tried to pretend he was a Baptist.

Supreme court Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr at "Red Mass".

Supreme court Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr laughing with Cardinal Theodore McCarrick at Red Mass

You know a new inquisition is coming, when inquisitors receive so much honor. Thomas More is a demi-god now:

St. Thomas More Award winner Catherine Kilbane is flanked by Ohio Supreme Court

Justice Terrence O'Donnell and Bishop Anthony M. Pilla

And is someone going to try and suggest the Jesuits had nothing to do with all of this?

Quote:

..and wherever they went, there followed a revival of popery. {GC 235.1}

Of course when we present such evidence, we need to guard ourselves from bitterness. The papists don't know any better, I assume. They are filling a role in prophecy, howbeit, an most unfavorable role. We can forgive our enemies, though we know they intend to wipe us off the face of the earth, for telling them them they are worshiping in vain if they don't keep the Ten Commandments, (and we are telling them this, even if we're not saying it), and for refusing to worship their gods, like in Daniel. It will turn to our glory in eternity. When we watch their 2nd death, we will pity them. We may as well show pity for our persecutors now.

I have to admit, though, I do see the papists as a pack of devils. Because Rev. 18 said Babylon would be a habitation of devils. I can't help thinking that to end up in a role like that, they must have made some decisions of serious compromise, perhaps deciding for some vice, rather than some virtue.

To worship a man that murdered the reformers, in cold blood. There's just something wrong with that. That's evil. Do they not discern this? I can't help thinking such things.

[John317]

Quote:

He was also one of the most vicious and bloody inquisitors that ever lived and was responsible for having Bible translator William Tyndale burned at the stake alive for his work.

He had many other innocent victims burned at the stake as well and held massive Bible burning events. Now tell me, what are all our heads of government in all three branches doing attending this cursed event?

Thomas More is celebrated at Red Mass:

Our heads of state attend that celebration to bind themselves more tightly with Rome. They remember this guy who said he's loyal to the Pope, more than the king. What does that tell you?

More was declared Patron Saint of politicians and statesmen by Pope John Paul II in 1980. No doubt this is why they are celebrating him.

They would doubtless be shocked to think that anyone believes the celebration means that they agree with everything Thomas More did.

Thomas More, ironically, was also the first man to go before the English parliament and call for free speech.