Robert Posted October 9, 2008 Posted October 9, 2008 The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value to God.....Oh, that all may see that everything in obedience...must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ. I don't know if you guys understand the implication above, but Ellen is saying that even our obedience must be placed on the glowing fire of Christ' righteousness! That's because we are not fully free of selfishness. Proof: "We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life." [sC 28,29] So what defiles even our good works is the love of self. I didn't say all our good works....Nevertheless, even our fruit can be imperfect is Ellen's point. Quote
Woody Posted October 9, 2008 Posted October 9, 2008 Thanks Rob. Great Quote from EGW. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Robert Posted October 9, 2008 Posted October 9, 2008 it is being said that Seventh-day Adventists are legalistic to preach the keeping of the Sabbath on the basis that the Sabbath as a memorial of God's creation of the world. It is claimed that the Sabbath is only to be preached in the future as a sign of righteousness by faith, and that any teaching of it at this time-- before the restoration of the gospel-- is harmful and legalistic. Quote
Woody Posted October 9, 2008 Posted October 9, 2008 Quote: Failure to realize this leads to legalism. Rob. I am honestly trying hard to understand this. Could you go further for me in my ignorance and slow mind ... and explain how it leads to legalism. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Taylor Posted October 9, 2008 Posted October 9, 2008 Originally Posted By: skyblue888 The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value to God.....Oh, that all may see that everything in obedience...must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ. I don't know if you guys understand the implication above, but Ellen is saying that even our obedience must be placed on the glowing fire of Christ' righteousness! That's because we are not fully free of selfishness. Proof: "We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life." [sC 28,29] So what defiles even our good works is the love of self. I didn't say all our good works....Nevertheless, even our fruit can be imperfect is Ellen's point. But I don't think that her quote is written to discourage us that we can never have victory over problems in our lives. I think Christ came to give us life and to give it more abundantly, not to just say "stay the way you are and that is ok with me." He said "go and sin no more". Now that doesn't mean we will never fall or never make a mistake but the good news of the gospel is that Christ can heal broken marriages, can make the drunkard a sober man etc. Why wouldn't this be good news? Quote
Woody Posted October 9, 2008 Posted October 9, 2008 Quote: "stay the way you are and that is ok with me." I don't think anyone here is saying that Taylor. Do you? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Taylor Posted October 9, 2008 Posted October 9, 2008 Well it seems as if some think that John3:17 is saying that one has to be sinless and can never make even "innocent" mistakes. And it seems that Robert is so appalled by that that he wants to make sure we all know we aren't perfect. I don't think the accusations or "feelings" of either side are accurate. I just think that we are saved by grace alone but that Christ does give victory over sin. Just my 2 cents and I am not upset with anyone. Quote
olger Posted October 9, 2008 Posted October 9, 2008 "And it seems that Robert is so appalled by that that he wants to make sure we all know we aren't perfect." I tried not to smile at this but failed.. Well spoken sister. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Moderators John317 Posted October 9, 2008 Moderators Posted October 9, 2008 I just think that we are saved by grace alone but that Christ does give victory over sin. This is everything. Not much more to be said if we realize what this means in our personal lives. 1 John 1: 6-7 said it well-- 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 9, 2008 Moderators Posted October 9, 2008 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 9, 2008 Moderators Posted October 9, 2008 Thanks Rob. Great Quote from EGW. "But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul." F. W. 100 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 9, 2008 Moderators Posted October 9, 2008 John, you and I or the other person will not be saved because of having turned to Christ or because we repented or whatever it might be that we did. Even the works that the Holy Spirit does in and through us are accepted only through the merits of Christ. Can any of us be saved without turning to Christ in faith? "But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul." F. W. 100 "It is through grace that we are brought into fellowship with Christ, to be associated with Him in the work of salvation. Faith is the condition upon which God has seen fit to promise pardon to sinners; not that there is any virtue in faith whereby salvation is merited; but because faith can lay hold of the merits of Christ, the remedy for sin." F. W. 100, 101 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted October 9, 2008 Posted October 9, 2008 Quote: Failure to realize this leads to legalism. Rob. I am honestly trying hard to understand this. Could you go further for me in my ignorance and slow mind ... and explain how it leads to legalism. I will answer this under the circumcision post! Rob Quote
Robert Posted October 9, 2008 Posted October 9, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert The day hasn't been changed' date=' but what it symbolizes is dynamic! It is changing....At creation it stood for a perfect & sinless creation. At the cross it became a symbol of Christ's perfect redemption in Himself. This will be better understood as the gospel is restored. In the future the Sabbath will symbolize a perfect re-creation! So the Sabbath is always God's 7th day, but what it symbolizes is changing. Failure to realize this leads to legalism. The future is NOW.[/quote'] No, John...you are absolutely, positively wrong, wrong, wrong! The Sabbath will be a seal of the justification you have by faith now. Failure to understand this truth as led you into legalism and self-righteousness. Quote: He is still the Creator and His holy law is immutable. That is great news! Creator of what, sin? Are we His creation? If so, God made junk. No, God made us perfect "in Adam"! But Adam fell and because we were in him we too took on his iniquity. Hence we were born loving self. Proof? Again, place two toddlers in the floor and give one of them a toy and the other nothing. What happens? Right, sin! But we laugh and think it's funny.... We are sinners by birth, and unless you have ceased to serve all selfishness and self-seeking in your life you, my buddy, then you are a sinner in need of Christ's righteousness! Comprehend? Quote
Robert Posted October 9, 2008 Posted October 9, 2008 Originally Posted By: Redwood Thanks Rob. Great Quote from EGW. "But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul." F. W. 100 Partially true and partially false. Hence, the statement must be false! This is legalism. Again, is self-love in the life? Yes? No? If you say "no" I, with the Apostle John, will call you a blooming liar. IF you say "yes" then you are practicing known sin and hence you cannot retain your justification - you are lost! Terrible teaching...just terrible!, This is why many SDA have no peace...no assurance. Rob Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted October 9, 2008 Moderators Posted October 9, 2008 The first one includes salvation. The second one is not referring to salvation. The second one is talking about AFTER being saved. IF your faith in the merits of Christ's righteousness does not result in OBEDIENCE TO HIS 10c, are you still saved? Gerry Quote
Woody Posted October 9, 2008 Posted October 9, 2008 Thief on the Cross Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Robert Posted October 9, 2008 Posted October 9, 2008 Originally Posted By: Redwood The first one includes salvation. The second one is not referring to salvation. The second one is talking about AFTER being saved. IF your faith in the merits of Christ's righteousness does not result in OBEDIENCE TO HIS 10c, are you still saved? Gerry Who told you that you were obeying? Obedience is 100% compliance to the law. Nothing less... Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 10, 2008 Moderators Posted October 10, 2008 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 10, 2008 Moderators Posted October 10, 2008 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo IF your faith in the merits of Christ's righteousness does not result in OBEDIENCE TO HIS 10c' date=' are you still saved? Gerry [/quote'] Who told you that you were obeying? Obedience is 100% compliance to the law. Nothing less... NKJV-- having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children. NASB-- having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children; According to 2 Peter 2: 14, who cannot cease from sin? Answer: those that walk after the flesh (v. 10). (It is obvious that not all are walking after the flesh and that some people are ceasing from sin. Who are ceasing from sin?) Paul and John give the same answer. (See Rom. 8: 4-8; 1 John 3:9; 5:18.) Do any of these verses assume that "ceasing from sin" means never sinning or not being sinful? Does 1 John 5: 5 say that no one can keep the commandments of God? That verse only makes sense if some people are keeping the commandments of God. In your mind, are they legalists? I hope not. Remember they are keeping the commandments of God because of the Holy Spirit and because of their faith-based relationship with Christ. NOTICE THAT NONE OF THESE VERSES DISCOUNT OR CONTRADICT 1 JOHN 1: 8-10. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 10, 2008 Moderators Posted October 10, 2008 Thief on the Cross God realizes that the thief on the cross heard of Jesus and accepted him only in the last hours of his life. God holds us responsible according to our own knowledge and opportunities, not the knowledge and opportunities that other people have. Remember the parable of the men hired to work in the vineyard. Some workers received the same payment even though they only worked for a few minutes. What does that have to do with those of us who were "hired" much earlier in the day? To the person to whom God gives much, much will be required. The point is that the thief put all of his faith in Christ and in His promise. We don't know any more than that. We can be sure there was a change in his life from that moment on. Even the Roman centurion who watched Jesus die said, "Surely this was a good man." If it affected the Roman officer that way, you can be certain it would have had a great affect on the thief who ended up putting all his faith in Christ. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 Every time we rest as God did, we are reminded of the heavenly peace that awaits us. Spin! The commandment says nothing like this. Do you just make this stuff up as you go? I mean how many different reasons must you make up to "keep the Sabbath"? Maybe you can come up with hundreds of rules, just as the Pharisees did! Quote
Robert Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 God realizes that the thief on the cross heard of Jesus and accepted him only in the last hours of his life. God holds us responsible according to our own knowledge and opportunities, not the knowledge and opportunities that other people have. More spin! This is a subtle from of legalism. We are saved by faith from faith to faith. Quote
Robert Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert Who told you that you were obeying? Obedience is 100% compliance to the law. Nothing less... [tangents and more spins....] Nothing in that reply answered the above....Nothing! Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 10, 2008 Moderators Posted October 10, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Every time we rest as God did, we are reminded of the heavenly peace that awaits us. Spin! The commandment says nothing like this. Do you just make this stuff up as you go? I mean how many different reasons must you make up to "keep the Sabbath"? Maybe you can come up with hundreds of rules, just as the Pharisees did! I didn't say the commandment in Exodus 20 says this. I am saying that Hebrews 4: 9, 10 teaches this. See below-- 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 9 So there is still a Sabbath rest for God's people. 10 God rested from his work. Those who enjoy God's rest also rest from their work. Given the fact that Paul's readers were Christian Sabbath-keepers, I believe the message here is obvious: the writer of Hebrews is saying that when we rest from our own works on the Sabbath-- ceasing from our labors like God ceased from his work-- we are reminded that salvation is ours by faith now and that this salvation will be fully realized in heaven. The important point often overlooked is that this is a positive association of the Sabbath with salvation, and there is nothing in it indicating that the Sabbath is a thing of the past. The Sabbath in fact is viewed as a pointer to something yet future. Therefore, it seems unreasonable to assume that the symbol would be done away with before the thing it symbolized is realized. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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