Why did God allow Lucifer to sin?

[Reddogs]

I have always wondered why God didnt just wipe out sin when it first appeared, why didnt He stop Lucifer before it got to the point of no return. Why didnt God unveil the results of sin so that Lucifer would stop and come back to his senses and give up his campaign against God and His justice and benevolence.

[John317]

He probably would have claimed that God was using fear tactics and trying to manipulate him and others by using His reputed powers of foreknowledge.

Given Lucifer's attitude, I doubt such a warning would have worked.

But the main reason is that God respects and honors our individuality and freedom.

I believe your question is related to the question why God does not come to each individual with overwhelming, undeniable proof of his existence and give each of us a vision of what will happen to us if we don't choose to do His will.

Why not?

Same reason why God didn't have the prophecies written in straightforward predictions, giving precise dates for all the events. Why the obscure symbolism that only believers can believe?

Why not? I believe the main reason has to do with freedom.

God is not primarily interested in His power and control. He wants freedom in His universe, and He came and died in order to guarantee it.

[cricket]

When does this so-called freedom to choose end? If freedom is something He wants in His universe, then why does the Adventist church teach that He will put an end to it with fire and brimstone, death and annihilation?

What kind of freedom is that? Free to choose to abide by His rules and to accept His consequences, but not free to choose to live however each of us desires and with the consequences we desire.

What is freedom anyway???

Freedom. Free-will. Funny words, those.

[Robert]

I have always wondered why God didnt just wipe out sin when it first appeared, why didnt He stop Lucifer before it got to the point of no return. Why didnt God unveil the results of sin so that Lucifer would stop and come back to his senses and give up his campaign against God and His justice and benevolence.

President Clinton, with the push of the Republicans back in 1993, came up with NAFTA (North America Free Trade Agreement). On paper the plan looked great! The US would trade with places like Mexico and in turn they would trade with us.

On paper it sounded wonderful, until, that is, the rubber met the road and NAFTA was put to the test. Do you know what the current trade deficit is with these countries? Around 5 billion dollars! NAFTA has obliterated over 3 million jobs in the US and is responsible for the exploitation of millions of Mexican and Chinese workers.

So until put to the test NAFTA really looked good on paper, but in reality it is a disaster - except for the rich, corporate CEOs.

In heaven Lucifer found God's agape love too restrictive. So he offered an alternative: self-love. Instead of living solely for others, he introduced the principle of "I" or "self". Hence the essence of sin is self-seeking - better known as iniquity.

On paper self-love sounded wonderful, so much that 1/3 of the angels in heaven bought into it! But God would not allow Lucifer to develop his system of love in heaven.

Well you know the rest of the story....He found two folks named Adam and Eve and with their help he became "the god of this world." This simply means that his type of self-love permeates the entire world.

Question:

Has self-love brought peace and prosperity? No!

So on paper self-love sounded wonderful, but when put to the test it brought hatred and poverty.

[fun2believe]

So then where was the free will in the above statement?

Disallow = no free will

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

So then where was the free will in the above statement?

Disallow = no free will

God knew the result....He even tried to convince 1/3 of the angels to reject Lucifer's self-love, but it sounded just too good to ignore! So they said, "No thanks!"

While God understood the outcome, convincing the unfallen angels was quite a task. Why? The love of self wasn't put to the test! It was theory unproven. Hence Lucifer was the 1st great politician!

Rob

[fun2believe]

Originally Posted By: fun2believe

While God understood the outcome' date=' convincing the unfallen angels was quite a task.

Rob

[/quote']

Are you saying that God wasn't up to the task?

[Robert]

Are you saying that God wasn't up to the task?

Didn't 1/3 of the angels side with Lucifer? Apparently God couldn't convince them.....The only way to test a theory is to allow it to develop. So God had to allow iniquity to develop, but not in heaven.

Remember that the Bible calls iniquity a mystery. I think it's called "the mystery of iniquity"? How could a sinless being, created in the image of God, turn against God's agape. He was perfect from the day he was created until iniquity was found in him. Where did this bent-to-self come from? It's a mystery...we don't know. Furthermore, how could sinless being, such as Adam and Eve, sin? There was no inward desire to sin, but yet both sinned. Sin can't be explained, for to explain it is to justify it! It's a mystery.

[BobRyan]

Nothing 'made them sin' -- in Calvinism you do what you are "made to do". You are created to fail or you are created to succeed.

But in the Arminian model - God creates free will.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

When does this so-called freedom to choose end? If freedom is something He wants in His universe, then why does the Adventist church teach that He will put an end to it with fire and brimstone, death and annihilation?

What kind of freedom is that? Free to choose to abide by His rules and to accept His consequences, but not free to choose to live however each of us desires and with the consequences we desire.

What is freedom anyway???

Freedom. Free-will. Funny words, those.

Freedom to choose never will end. The saved will be free to choose, but they will always choose freedom from sin and slavery, and never freedom to sin and die.

Christ died in order to guarantee freedom in the universe-- freedom to be what God made us to be.

God intends to bring suffering and death in the universe to an end. Sin results in death, so our God of love must get rid of sin. If people insist on holding on to sin, God allows them to make that choice, but then they are destroyed along with the sin. He appeals to people to live but if they choose sin, it is the same as choosing annihilation. God is the source of all life, so if people hate God, the natural consequence is death.

What it boils down to is that God refuses to have a jail or concentration camp in his universe forever.

Let me know if this helps at all.

[Robert]

Here's what Jack says:

Sin originated in heaven in the mind of Lucier, the leader of the angels [see Ezekiel 28:14,15]. The Bible doesn’t explain how sin could arise in a perfect being, because sin is unexplainable. That is why it is referred to as the “mystery of iniquity” [2 Thessalonians 2:7].

The essence of Lucifer’s sin was self-exaltation [see Isaiah 14:12-14]. Self-centeredness, the love of self, is the underlying principle of all sin. It is in complete opposition to the principle of selfless, self-sacrificing love, which is the foundation of God’s character and government [see 1 John 4:7, 8, 16]. Sin, then, is basically rebellion against God and His self-sacrificing love.

....Although sin originated in heaven in the mind of Lucifer, God did not allow it to develop in heaven. It was here on earth that Lucier and his angels developed the principle of sin after they were expelled from heaven. Let’s see how it happened.

The Development of Sin

God created this earth for man and gave him dominion over it. All was perfect; sin did not exist in anything that God created [see Genesis 1:26, 28, 31]. Sin came into God’s perfect world through Lucifer, turned Satan. He tempted our first parents, Adam and Eve, to sin and caused them to fall from the perfect state in which God had created them [see Genesis 3:1-24; Luke 4:5, 6]. Thus Satan took possession of this world and made it his own on the basis of the principle that “a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him” [2 Peter 2:19].

In the wilderness of temptation, Satan told Jesus that the authority and splendor of the world “has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to” [Luke 4:6]. Notice that Jesus did not dispute Satan’s claim. Since the fall of Adam and Eve, Satan has been the “prince of this world” [John 14:30]. In fact, Paul calls him the “god of this age” [2 Corinthians 4:4]. As descendants of Adam and Eve, we are in slavery to sin and Satan [see John 8:34; Romans 6:17; 2 Peter 2:19]. We are born self-centered, and our natural inclination is to want to live independently of God [see Romans 1:20-23]. The whole world is under Satan’s control except for those who have given themselves to Christ [see 1 John 5:19].

Using fallen human beings as his tools, Satan has developed a kingdom that is based entirely on self-seeking; the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of the world” [Revelation 11:15]. It is in complete opposition to God’s “kingdom of heaven” [Matthew 3:2], which is based on self-sacrificing love. Everything that goes to make up this world system — politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, nationalism — is founded on Satan’s principle of self-love. At times this principle may not be obvious in the things we see around us, but “everything in the world ... comes not from the Father but from the world” [1 John 2:16]. Without exception, all that is in the world is based upon “lust,” or the principle of self-love.

[phkrause]

In my latest "signs of the times" (oct 08) there is an article by Mark Finley called "the terrorist of revelation". One of the paragraph's goes like this "Back then, however, no one besides God knew how much misery Satan's alternative would create. We-and the whole universe-had to see that for ourselves. We had to know beyond the shadow of a doubt that God's way is best, because that's the only way God could solve the problem of evil once and for all. He wants every question to be answered, every doubt settled." There are many other good sayings in the article. If you want to read it for yourself go to www.signstimes.com web site and check it out. Or just get the magazine. Its got lots of great articles.

pk

[cricket]

John, it doesn't really help me a whole lot, no.

Take for example the following scenario:

X is the creator of lollipops. X believes red lollipops are the best lollipops and only wants W,Y, and Z to have red lollipops. But...X is not the only lollipop maker in the land. He's the only distributor, but not the only maker.

He wants everyone to love red lollipops and to chose red lollipops but, to be fair to the other manufacturers, he allows them to sell their lollipops in his store.

W,Y and Z come into the store and X tries to convince them that the red lollipops are the best lollipops and will even give them away free if the people would just choose his lollipops over the other ones. W thinks that's a great deal and chooses a red lollipop.

Y is rather partial to blue lollipops and only wants a blue one. Z likes the yellow lollipops and even though they're more expensive, Z chooses the yellow.

X tries and tries to convice them that the red lollipops are better. He offers to give them away for free if Y and Z would just choose the red ones. But they refuse.

Now the packaging on all the lollipops is the same. It is impossible to open them without X's help. So, X reaches down and opens W's package. W runs away with his free red lollipop--skipping merrily down the lane.

Y and Z ask X to help them with their lollipops, but X says, "Sorry, no can do. You're free to choose whichever lollipop you want, but I'm not going to help you unwrap the package."

All three went into the store hoping to get a lollipop. That was their desire, their goal, their purpose. Each had "freedom" to choose a lollipop of their liking. But NONE of them had "freedom" to choose the lollipop and unwrap it themselves.

There was NO choice in unwrapping their goods. It was X's way, or no way at all.

In essence, there was only one "choice" and that choice was made by X himself. The people were free to choose X's way,

Do you understand at all what I'm getting at?

Where is freedom? What is free-will? There's nothing free about it, really. It's God's way, or no way.

[Lineman]

Word picture of freedom:

To make it simpler, try to imagine the largest flat space you can. Envision the center area fenced off with a one-way fence. Once you get into the center (This is where we all start.) you cannot get out yourself, but Jesus wants to take you out and He will if you do not resist His love.

In the center we see all sorts of things the Devil has made that appeals to the visual/physical appitite but that are not good for us. And if you take a closer look you see that in the very center of this circle area there is a venturi/funnel (like water spinning as it goes down a drain) that is pulling everyone into the deepest pit you have ever seen (death).

This is all quite unnoticed by most people as they go about their daily life, but those who cry to the Lord for help will be placed (by God) outside of the one-way fence. From there you and I have complete freedom to go and do anything we would like to do. (In fact, we are even free to return through that one-way fence and die if that is what we want.)

Just think of the places in the entire universe you can go visit and the things you can see and learn about there. Think of all the good stuff you can eat and drink. Think of all the people that you will meet who really do care about things.

I see the 10 Commandments as being like that one-way fence.

That is real freedom.

Back to the original question as to why God allowed Lucifer to sin. I had questioned the same thing years ago and realized that if He had destroyed Lucifer when he first sinned the rest of the universe would be "scared to death" of God. They would no longer love Him. So then I began to question why God did not just destroy everyone and start over or just erase everyones mind so that they would not remember anything about Lucifer. He certainly could have, but His whole government is based on love and even if everyone else could not remember, God would remember and it would have destroyed Him because sin destroyes everything.

Then a few months ago someone made a comment that was even better at explaining why God allowed sin to continue. If He had destroyed sin, eventually it would have happened again. The way He is dealing with it right now is the best and only way to rid the entire universe of this "cancer".

This even answers the question as to why, if there is a loving God, He does not step in and put a stop to this whole mess. You can see this all in a presentation (3 different versions) here: The Big Picture (Summary of the Bible)

God is doing an amazing thing in letting this all continue for a little while longer. Eventually though, He will make all things NEW!

[cricket]

The way He is dealing with it right now is the best and only way to rid the entire universe of this "cancer".

_____________

Which of us, who is filled with sin and has nothing but evil in us will ever want to "choose" to be free of this cancer??

How can the evil that lurks in the heart choose to do anything that is contrary to evil??

[Robert]

The way He is dealing with it right now is the best and only way to rid the entire universe of this "cancer".

Just remember we too have the cancer....

[cricket]

I regret not attributing those words to the original author. My apologies.