Ernie Knoll's Dreams -- Comfort from Christ Himself?

[David-Kingsley]

Hello, y'all!

Just wanted to share this with you. I can't recall the name of the person who posted the links to begin with. They contain one speech called "The Converging Crisis" by pastor David Gates (divided into two parts)...

Links:

The Converging Crisis 1/2

The Converging Crisis 2/2

In part 2, he mentions the paster Ernie Knoll having dreams and nightly visions about the great tribulation and Jesus' imminent coming. These dreams are put out on the Internet, here's the link:

4 His People

To be honest, these dreams seem to be personal messages from Jesus, based on what I have read, compared to the Scriptures. The angel (called "The Herald") speaking to Ernie does acknowledge Jesus Christ as the Son of Man, that He came in flesh and blood and that He was God, is God and will ever be God (one of the last dreams contains the angel giving a testimony to God and all the universe about Jesus Christ, his "Master and Creator").

I plead with you to listen to David Gates' speech, to read the dreams and compare them to what the Bible says, as the dreams may be a huge comfort and assurance to Gods children! It was to me, and I am once again deeply impressed by God's overwhelming love and grace and most of all ... that Jesus is no longer "coming soon" -- it's too late for that! Says Jesus, "Watch as I AM coming!". (Watch and wait!)

Remember Joel 3, dreams and visions from our Father are very likely to come in these last days!

Thank you!

[fccool]

I regret to disagree, as some of them seem a bit contrived. Here's an example:

Jesus calls me by my heavenly name and says, “May I have your hand?” I hold out my hand and we rise just a little

into the air. Jesus places His right hand on my left shoulder. He calls me by my heavenly name and says, “I have

heard the doubts of the naysayers. I have heard the claims that My messenger is an agent of Satan. I have heard

the accusations made against you. I have seen how the thoughts of My people have been twisted and that because

of what they have said many no longer want to believe. I have allowed My messenger to be tested using

1 John 4:1-3. My messenger gave a perfect account of whom he serves, but that was not enough. I allowed another

test of My messenger, showing it was through My blood that I gave on the cross that all may live. That was not

enough. I came and taught how to test the spirits, but that was not enough. It is through My patience that I allowed

My messenger to be commanded ‘In the name of Jesus Christ whose blood was shed for all that will believe in Him

and have everlasting life, I command you to not say a word but depart and never return to me.’ However My vial of

patience is almost empty. Those that have made claims against Me and My messenger, with the facts that I have

given, prove that they are wrong and are being used of Satan.” Jesus turns and begins writing in the sky:

"Let the people of God arouse out of sleep, and begin in earnest the work of repentance and reformation, let them search the Scriptures to

learn the truth as it is in Jesus, let them make an entire consecration to God, and evidence will not be wanting that Satan is still active and

vigilant. With all possible deception he will manifest his power, calling to his aid all the fallen angels of his realm."

The Great Controversy (1888), p. 397.

“ ‘Every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.’ (John 3:20). As men see that they

cannot maintain their position by the Scriptures, many determine to maintain it at all hazards, and with a malicious spirit they assail the

character and motives of those who stand in defense of unpopular truth.” The Great Controversy (1888), p. 458.

Jesus turns to me and explains that many who have said wrongs against me are not what people think they are.

{1} Many people would rather listen to others than to study to know God’s voice. Many will say they speak and

perform miracles in His name. Jesus says, “I tell you this, ‘I know them not!’ ” {2} Jesus now begins writing in the sky:

“I have been shown that evil angels in the form of believers will work in our ranks to bring in a strong spirit of unbelief. These powers of evil

will assemble in our meetings, not to receive a blessing, but to counterwork the influences of the Spirit of God. In this time evil angels in the

form of men will talk with those who know the truth. They will misinterpret and misconstrue the statements of the messengers of God.”

Selected Messages, Book 3, pp. 410-411.

“There will be seducing spirits and doctrines of devils in the midst of the church, and these evil influences will increase; but hold fast the

beginning of your confidence firm unto the end. Satan and his angels will appear on this earth as men, and will mingle with those of whom

God's Word says, ‘Some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils. ’ (1 Timothy 4:1).”

Manuscript Releases, Vol. 8, No. 345.

“The enemy works untiringly to deceive human beings, and lead them away from God. He and his angels will in the future assume the

shape of human beings, and work to make the truth of God of no effect. Those who know the truth, but who walk contrary to the truth, may

never place their foot in the path that Christ followed.” Spalding and Magan Collection (1985), p. 307.

“I must warn all our churches to beware of men who are being sent out to do the work of spies in our conferences and churches,--a work

instigated by the father of falsehood and deception. Let every church-member stand true to principle. We have been told what would come,

and it has come.” Special Testimonies Series A, Number 12, p. 9.

Jesus now states, “I have asked that you choose this day whom you will serve. Do you serve the ones who have

misquoted My messengers? Do you serve the ones who have called My messengers of Satan? I sent a message in

the ‘Love and Rebuke’ dream. It was ignored and levity was made of it. I gave it again when I instructed on how to

test the spirits. Again it was ignored. I still ask if I will find faith. After teaching how to test the spirits and giving My

rebuke, you want to cast out My messages.” Jesus turns to me and says, “Man ordains man to serve on My behalf

but I have called you personally to serve on My behalf. There was a Shepherd that needed help in tending His flock.

He gave a staff and a robe to each and they went out and called themselves shepherds.

Now, let's be clear about it. Why would Jesus quote so much of E.G. White verbatim, also providing carefully documented references????? Is E.G. White a test of faith???? or is it Bible?

I would except these to be as encouraging dreams, yet I would say to anyone... be very careful.

[fccool]

David gates also has some real misunderstanding about the mechanics of money, globalism and end time events. Basically he is stating that God has to wait for us to become faithful until he unleashes the end time events.

Was this ever the case in history???? Consider the flood. Consider the S&G events. Consider the destruction of Israel and Jerusalem. God does is not caught surprised, neither He depending on human actions to carry out the grand plan. Sure, He works through us, but it does not mean that the plan is hanging on our shoulders, that if we fail... then He fails. He is working to bring about the completion of His will, which is perfect.

Gates also misunderstands the seal of God. Deriving from his eschatology, only 140,000 - a literal number - will have a seal of God, which I don't believe is the case Biblically. Consider the following verses.

2Cor. 1:21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Eph. 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession --to the praise of his glory.

Eph. 4:29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

What is the "Seal of God" based on the above verses? I think it's fairly obvious. Yet, today we are pushing a "sealing of God backwards". Sabbath is not the "Seal of God", it is a RESULT of being sealed, which is wanting to obey God's law. Unfortunately, this is the "horse before the carriage" salvation theology that is being pushed, that Paul rebuked Galatians for.

Obedience to the Law is the result of salvations, not the other way around.

[David-Kingsley]

I agree that it is important to be careful with such revelations. Everything must be compared to what the Bible teachers.

But as I have read a lot of Ellen White's writings in addition to those quotations included, and find that her writings are in accord with what the Bible teaches (both those in the dreams and the rest), I can't see a problem with Jesus quoting White. If Ellen was a prophet sent from God, why would it this be a problem?

We should test everything by the Word of God. I have read all the dreams carefully, and what is quoted from White's writings and the Scriptures in the dreams, are words of truth, according to what the Bible teaches.

I cannot come to any other conclusion than that what I have read so far is truth and that these dreams accord the Bible and the Bible accords them.

[David-Kingsley]

And as for David Gates and his preaching:

Regarding God being dependant of us, I agree that God is independant of humanity. Remember what Jesus said as he rode on the back of the donkey through Jerusalem and the pharisees told Him to make His disciples be quiet:

"And some of the Pharisees among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples. And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immdiately cry out."

I don't think David Gates refers to God not being able to complete His plans due to man's unreliability.

God doesn't have to wait for us, but He wants to. He wants to save as many as possible, God is love! He wants as many as possible of the species of man to trust in Him and become followers of Jesus Christ. That is why our Savior is in the Most Holy Place, to pray for and plead for us before the Father. That is why He waits.

The verses that you quote do not approve your vision on the 144,000 as a literal number. I do not believe there will be 144,000 saved human beings after 6,000 years.

If you want to obey God's law, I believe one would do whatever would be in one's might to obey God's law, according to one's conscience, eventhough we know that no man except for the Son of Man, has been or will be able to fully obey it.

I believe that the Sabbath is the seal of God, those who chose to sanctify it, chose the seal of God. I do not believe that God randomly seals people, and they start keeping the Sabbath out of nowhere. God does not decide one's fait, He knows it, but He does not decide it. We are free human beings, that is the main pillar of God's love, and the reason there are sinners at all.

God wants us to love us with all our hearts, will and minds. If we know the Sabbath is the true and holy Day of the Lord and do not sanctify it, God will not seal us. If we do not know that the Sabbath is the God's holy Day and do not sanctify it, I believe God will wait until light is cast upon the fourth commandment, so that we can understand and chose to obey or not.

[Stan]

This is not directed at any one..

Keep in mind Ernie Knoll's Dreams has been pretty much discredited by those who dug deep.

[Taylor]

This is not directed at any one..

Keep in mind Ernie Knoll's Dreams has been pretty much discredited by those who dug deep.

Agreed. Thanks For saying this, Stan.

[fccool]

God wants us to love us with all our hearts, will and minds. If we know the Sabbath is the true and holy Day of the Lord and do not sanctify it, God will not seal us. If we do not know that the Sabbath is the God's holy Day and do not sanctify it, I believe God will wait until light is cast upon the fourth commandment, so that we can understand and chose to obey or not.

David, the problem with this is that Sabbath is not the only commandment. Consider these situations:

1) One keeps Sabbath, yet hates his brother.

2) One keeps the Sabbath but gossips, lusts and etc.

So you see, the Sabbath is not the ultimate test BY ITSELF. Salvation experience is a comprehensive package that is initiated by change through the Holy Spirit. Our loyalty is a comprehensive test... not just based on Sabbath.

Notice that nowhere in the Bible God calls Sabbath a SEAL explicitly. You have to stretch scripture pretty far to make this conclusion. It may be a sign between God and His people, yet it never called a SEAL. Seal and sign are two different things.

The purpose of a seal is so that no one but the receiving party would open the package or a document. That's why Bible on numerous occasions calls the Holy Spirit to be our seal, because it is working in us.

[David-Kingsley]

This is not directed at any one..

Keep in mind Ernie Knoll's Dreams has been pretty much discredited by those who dug deep.

I will keep that in mind. Ultimately, it is the Bible in which we should have all our faith, as well as it is to be the only test of faith in all cases. I am very careful with what I accept and do not accept as truth. But I still cannot see any flaws or disharmonious phrases or quotes in Ernie Knoll's dreams when comparing them to what I have been taught and what I ultimately believe as a SDA, regarding Bible teachings and Ellen G. White writings.

This is the only reason I share this with anyone at all.

fccool, yes, it is true that the Sabbath is not the only commandment in the Bible. I am fully aware of that, and it is also true that the Holy Spirit is to be the seal of the saints in the latter days, as the Bible teaches. I believe there will be many Sabbath-keepers who will not be saved at the end of this world. But I also believe that the Sabbath will be the only literal sign/seal of God as a witness to angels and men, as the majority of Christianity sanctifies the first day of the week, Sunday. This i believe will be the main (not the only) difference between those who chose to follow and obey the commandments of our Father, and those who chose to obey the commandments of men.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: David-Kingsley

God wants us to love us with all our hearts, will and minds. If we know the Sabbath is the true and holy Day of the Lord and do not sanctify it, God will not seal us. If we do not know that the Sabbath is the God's holy Day and do not sanctify it, I believe God will wait until light is cast upon the fourth commandment, so that we can understand and chose to obey or not.

David, the problem with this is that Sabbath is not the only commandment. Consider these situations:

1) One keeps Sabbath, yet hates his brother.

2) One keeps the Sabbath but gossips, lusts and etc.

So you see, the Sabbath is not the ultimate test BY ITSELF. Salvation experience is a comprehensive package that is initiated by change through the Holy Spirit. Our loyalty is a comprehensive test... not just based on Sabbath.

Yes, of course.

If someone is doing these things and not confessing his sins and overcoming them by the Holy Spirit in his life, he is not really keeping the Sabbath in the true sense of that term.

You are right that it is not the ultimate test BY ITSELF. Both the Spirit of prophecy and the church have never taught anything different from that. The Sabbath is only the test when it is properly related to-- and the result of-- a loving, personal, faith-based relationship with Christ.

Quote:

Notice that nowhere in the Bible God calls Sabbath a SEAL explicitly. You have to stretch scripture pretty far to make this conclusion. It may be a sign between God and His people, yet it never called a SEAL. Seal and sign are two different things.

The purpose of a seal is so that no one but the receiving party would open the package or a document. That's why Bible on numerous occasions calls the Holy Spirit to be our seal, because it is working in us.

Sign and seal are the same thing in the Bible. The words are used interchangeably. See Romans 4: 11, where it says that circumcision is a sign and a seal; and Ezekiel 20: 12, 20 which says the Sabbath is an outward sign, or seal, of God's people who have an inner faith to follow Him as their Creator.

So the seal of God is the Sabbath, kept by God's people because they've learned to trust, love, and obey Him as the loving, powerful God He is. As you know, this sign, or seal, is contrasted with the Mark of the Beast, which also has to do with worship. It is the opposite of God's seal. God's seal is the work of the Holy Spirit on our minds and hearts and is a settling into the truth about God so that we cannot be moved.

On the next post, I've given some quotes from the Spirit of prophecy on the Sabbath as the seal of God, if you're interested.

[John317]

There are these statements from the Spirit of prophecy on the Sabbath as the seal of God:

Quote:

The Covenant and the Sabbath

Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the

sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign

between me and the children of Israel for ever. Ex. 31: 16, 17.

When the Lord delivered His people Israel from Egypt and committed to them

His law, He taught them that by the observance of the Sabbath they were to

be distinguished from idolaters. . . .

As the Sabbath was the sign that distinguished Israel when they came out of

Egypt to enter the earthly Canaan, so it is the sign that now distinguishes

God's people as they come out from the world to enter the heavenly rest. The

Sabbath is a sign of a relationship existing between God and His people, a

sign that they honor His law. It distinguishes between His loyal subjects

and transgressors. . . . The Sabbath given to the world as the sign of God

as the Creator is also the sign of Him as the Sanctifier. The power that

created all things is the power that recreates the soul in His own likeness.

To those who keep holy the Sabbath day it is the sign of sanctification.

True sanctification is harmony with God, oneness with Him in character. It

is received through obedience to those principles that are the transcript of

His character. And the Sabbath is the sign of obedience. He who from the

heart obeys the fourth commandment will obey the whole law. He is sanctified

through obedience.

To us as to Israel the Sabbath is given "for a perpetual covenant." To those

who reverence His holy day the Sabbath is a sign that God recognizes them as

His chosen people. It is a pledge that He will fulfill to them His covenant.

Every soul who accepts the sign of God's government places himself under the

divine, everlasting covenant. He fastens himself to the golden chain of

obedience, every link of which is a promise.

The fourth commandment alone of all the ten contains the seal of the great

Lawgiver, the Creator of the heavens and the earth. Those who obey this

commandment take upon themselves His name, and all the blessings it involves

are theirs.

The Sabbath has lost none of its meaning. It is still a sign between God and

His people, and it will be so forever.

>From God's Amazing Grace - Page 156

Quote:

The Seal of God and the Mark of the Beast

Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples. Isa. 8:16.

The living righteous will receive the seal of God prior to the close of

probation.

The sign, or seal, of God is revealed in the observance of the

seventh-day Sabbath, the Lord's memorial of creation. . . . The mark of

the beast is the opposite of this--the observance of the first day of

the week.

Sunday keeping is not yet the mark of the beast, and will not be until

the decree goes forth causing men to worship this idol Sabbath. The time

will come when this day will be the test, but that time has not come

yet.

No one has yet received the mark of the beast. The testing time has not

yet come. There are true Christians in every church, not excepting the

Roman Catholic communion. None are condemned until they have had the

light and have seen the obligation of the fourth commandment. But when

the decree shall go forth enforcing the counterfeit Sabbath, and the

loud cry of the third angel shall warn men against the worship of the

beast and his image, the line will be clearly drawn between the false

and the true. Then those who still continue in transgression will

receive the mark of the beast.

If the light of truth has been presented to you, revealing the Sabbath

of the fourth commandment, and showing that there is no foundation in

the Word of God for Sunday observance, and yet you still cling to the

false Sabbath, refusing to keep holy the Sabbath which God calls "my

holy day," you receive the mark of the beast. When does this take place?

When you obey the decree that commands you to cease from labor on Sunday

and worship God, while you know that there is not a word in the Bible

showing Sunday to be other than a common working day, you consent to

receive the mark of the beast, and refuse the seal of God.

In a little while every one who is a child of God will have His seal

placed upon him. O that it may be placed upon our foreheads! Who can

endure the thought of being passed by when the angel goes forth to seal

the servants of God in their foreheads?

>From Maranatha - Page 211

[John317]

I agree If Ellen was a prophet sent from God, why would it this be a problem?

I don't believe that quoting Ellen White would be a problem. If Ellen White was a true prophet of God-- which I have no doubt she was--you could expect that God is very interested in how we respond to her and her messages. Look at the way the children of Israel treated Moses in the wilderness. Was God interested? Has God changed?

(I wouldn't want anyone to think I'm defending Ernie Knoll's dreams here, because I really don't know much about them.)

[David-Kingsley]

John317, if you haven't read them already, please do. I seriously wouldn't bother posting them here and other places on the net, putting them up for discussion, did I only possess the slightest doubt or scepticism when reading them.

As people seem to rather disagree and utter distrust and disbelief to these revelations, I become insecure. But then as I read them over again, having the Scriptures and Ellen White teachings in mind, I once again cannot keep from acknowledging the well-known, exhalted truths they contain, as well as the holy and meek Spirit in them, by Whom I believe they are sent.

[fccool]

John,

I don't disagree with any of the above. My problem is with a view that pushes Sabbath before God. Sabbath is a RESULT, and not a means to salvation.

Here's another problem with this view. For Sabbath to be THE SEAL... it has to be THE SEAL NOW. It can't be the seal sometime in the future when Sunday is enforced. Do you agree.

If you do agree, would you likewise agree that the Mark of the Beast then is somewhat effective now? Causes is not exactly the same as forces. In this case it is in a context of deception.

What do you think about that?

[fccool]

The problem with the idea of THE MOST IMPORTANT COMMANDMENT, is that Sabbath is not sited in the Bible as such. I can see it being very important in the context of today, but yet I don't see it being above the other. Could you provide me with Biblical proof.

David,

My purpose is not simply to disagree for the sake of disagreeing. This is very important issue at hand that I can't chalk up to blind faith... as I don't believe God wants us to believe with no evidence on hand. The evidence presented is very vague and much of it is from extra-Biblical source. I'm not saying that is is wrong... but I would like to exclude as much extra-Biblical sources as possible when it comes to Biblical interpretation. I.E. need more Biblical proof that:

1) Sabbath is the most important commandment.

2) That it is THE ONLY THING that will separate sealed from non-sealed in the end times.

What I understand so far is:

1) One must be saved to receive God's SEAL. i.e. understand God's will and be Baptized as a SIGN (just like circumcision was a sign)

2) The salvation results in mind change that would follow God's law, and abnegation of sin.

3) The above two do include the Sabbath, yet it is not the ONLY thing at stake, although I can see how it can become a very prominent one.

I guess, the other thing to add is that I wish that as Adventists we would focus on the first two more than on #3. #3 is the natural as Baptism for those who experience salvation. Right now I see almost a sense of the "Sunday law" and "Pope decree" paranoya in Adventistm today. There are other issues are worth paying attention to.

One of these issue is economic one, because this is the mechanism of imposition of the Mark... and thus people would have to choose between keeping their status quo or loosing everything for the sake of Christ.

And I've heard only 1!!!!(not including the videos) adventist pastor to remotely warning people to re-evaluate their thinking when it comes to money and prosperity. I'm not saying that there are not more, but I just don't hear it as much as the issue should be addressed.

[John317]

John,

I don't disagree with any of the above. My problem is with a view that pushes Sabbath before God. Sabbath is a RESULT, and not a means to salvation.

Here's another problem with this view.

For Sabbath to be THE SEAL... it has to be THE SEAL NOW. It can't be the seal sometime in the future when Sunday is enforced. Do you agree.

If you do agree, would you likewise agree that the Mark of the Beast then is somewhat effective now? Causes is not exactly the same as forces. In this case it is in a context of deception.

The Sabbath should never be pushed before God. I think we tend to take it for granted that people already accept God in their life, but that can be a wrong assumption.

When the Latter Rain falls and the Third Angels Messages are given in the Loud Voice, that message will be the everlasting gospel, which is righteousness by faith, and will include the Sabbath along with the warning against receiving the Mark of the Beast. All of these things have to do with who we worship and obey, who we put our trust in-- God or his self-declared enemy.

You are right about the Sabbath and the Mark of the Beast.

The reception of the Mark of the Beast is yet future. But Sunday worship is even NOW the sign or mark of the authority of the sea-beast power. It is the sign of allegiance to Rome. But people won't receive the mark until a fairly short time before the end of human probation.

The same with the Seal of God, which is even NOW the Sabbath.

These things don't change in the future. What changes is the clarity with which people see the issues and also the fact that probation will be brought to a close. People will at that time be on one side or the other. Right now we have a lot of people who don't know the issues.

But we are in the process of being sealed by God now. Both the seal and the mark are settling into one position or the other.

The seal is a settling into the truth and the ways of God, and the mark is a settling into sin and the ways of Satan. We either become more and more like God and Jesus; or we become more and more like Satan.

The Holy Spirit seals us by writing the law of God on our minds and hearts so that the law of love-- the principles of the Ten Commandments-- become a part of our thinking and feelings. But Satan also is busy getting people to live for him and to accept his ways. His way is to live for self and reject God's law. God's way is to live for God and submit to His Law. And the seal is in the Sabbath, right in the middle of God's moral law.

It is the only part of God's law that has God's seal. It is an acknowledgement of who God is, and the only reason anyone will have it is that they accept God's revelation of Himself and of His will. There's no other reason to obey the Sabbath commandment.

It's a sign that it's the Lord of the universe who sanctifies us. It points to God's power to create and recreate. He recreates a new heart within us.

And at the end, if you are keeping the Sabbath (and the rest of God's moral law), you are saying to the whole world that you would rather die than dishonor and disobey God. You would rather die than submit to Satan. Our thought will be, like Joseph and Job, how can we dishonor and disobey the Creator who has given everything for us?

Any thoughts?

[David-Kingsley]

The problem with the idea of THE MOST IMPORTANT COMMANDMENT, is that Sabbath is not sited in the Bible as such. I can see it being very important in the context of today, but yet I don't see it being above the other. Could you provide me with Biblical proof.

David,

My purpose is not simply to disagree for the sake of disagreeing. This is very important issue at hand that I can't chalk up to blind faith... as I don't believe God wants us to believe with no evidence on hand. The evidence presented is very vague and much of it is from extra-Biblical source. I'm not saying that is is wrong... but I would like to exclude as much extra-Biblical sources as possible when it comes to Biblical interpretation. I.E. need more Biblical proof that:

1) Sabbath is the most important commandment.

2) That it is THE ONLY THING that will separate sealed from non-sealed in the end times.

...

Mat 22:37-40. Jesus clearly presents to the Pharisees the two most important commandments of all.

It is also interesting to think about how the fourth commandment is the only one that starts with the word REMEMBER.

Also thinking of the creation of our planet: the first three days of the week God created, and the following three days He filled what He had created with life (the earth, the sea and the atmosphere). The seventh day is, as a matter of fact, the only day in which He executed both actions: He created it and He filled it with Himself: Holiness, divinity, serenity, rest, happiness. This is ultimately the most generous gift He could ever offor (in addition to His Son, which subsequently was required for the salvation of a fallen mankind)!

I believe the fourth commandment is important in its context, as the major part of the Christian movement today believe Sunday is God's holy day. But I also believe that the fourth commandment is in possession of a significant position among God's ten commandments.

The Bible does not mention this, but as I fully trust what Ellen White writes regarding different biblical topics (which are comparable and researchable in the main Source itself), I also trust what she writes about the fourth commandment and its significance.

But still, the most important commandment is loving one another, and loving God with all our hearts, souls, strength and minds (as mentioned in Luk 10:27).

I also agree on what John317 is saying there about the importance of the Sabbath. As many Christians today consider the commandment of sanctifying the right Sabbath as one minor detail, God's people clearly show, by keeping the Sabbath, the importance of following every divine instruction, not to save ourselves, but because we love our Father (as Jesus says in John 14:15; 14:21; 15:10).

True love for Jesus will not question or search for ways to love Him without taking the responsibility of carrying the cross every day.

[fccool]

John,

I agree and underspend with what you are saying. Yet it's important to emphasize salvation as a whole package. I read the Bible, and I don't see the Sabbath being pushed as the most important issue among Jesus followers.

The question that the critics of the doctrine are asking is very valid: "If Sabbath is such an important issue, why is it that is is not clearly mentioned as the forefront of all things by the writers of the new testement, or even Jesus himself?"

I see many other things mentioned before Sabbath keeping and law is mentioned, and there's a reason for that. The reason is that Sabbath is not more important than salvation. Salvation does not come through Sabbath. Keeping Sabbath is a natural result, just like a stack of dominoes, when one falls it triggers the rest to fall. The fist and most important domino is Jesus.

Now here's the delimma that I see happening, and I think you don't understand my concern... and the reason I view Holy Spirit to be THE SEAL of God, and Sabbath to be the SIGN of those who are His.

1) Consider the Jews. They keep the law and the Sabbath much so than Adventists. They take this issue very seriously. In fact they keep it with extreme devotion and bend over backwards. Do they have the SEAL of God? I contend that they do not, because merely keeping the law is NOT what God requires of us. So what does God require?

2) 1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

God wants us to love him with the above attitude. And, we don't. Without God's guidance and direction, on our own we can't. WITHOUT THE GIFT OF HOLY SPIRIT, WHO IS CHANGING US, WE CAN'T LOVE GOD. That was the case for both OT and NT believers. Do you agree?

Where're some verses to back up what I'm saying here:

(Isaiah 11:2-3) The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD-- {3} and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears;

(Isaiah 61:1-2) The Spirit of the Sovereign LORD is on me, because the LORD has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim freedom for the captives and release from darkness for the prisoners, {2} to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all who mourn,

(Joel 2:28-29) 'And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. {29} Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

(Matthew 10:19-20) But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, {20} for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.

(John 16:12-15) "I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. {13} But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. {14} He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. {15} All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

(Romans 5:5) And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

(Romans 8:9-17) You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. {10}

God is again, and again, and again IS VERY CLEAR on the subject. Yet this subject is NEGLECTED by Adventists today. For unregenerate men who do not have the Spirit, the message is foolishness.

{12} We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. {13} This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. {14} The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

You can't love God except through His Spirit. You just can't. It does not matter how many laws you keep. You may have expressed interest in God, you may know certain things intellectually.

But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. {17} Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. {18} And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, {23} gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. {24} Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. {25} Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

From the above, I can conclude that we are saved through sanctifying work of the Spirit, who is guiding us to SEARCH FOR TRUTH ON OUR OWN, AND FOLLOW IT. There are many adventists today who keep Sabbath for wrong reasons, because they believe that keeping the Sabbath somehow "seals" them, and thus there is much PRIDE and comparative talk like:

"They don't even keep their sunday sabbath correct. They watch football games and etc. They don't even tithe".

The true Christian realizes that it's not from OURSELVES that we do all these things, but by Spirit who guides us to the truth. So ALL CREDIT GOES TO GOD AND NONE TO US.

So, let's not put the cart before the horse, thinking that we somehow better because we keep the Sabbath. Sabbath does not preserve you. It is a result of the work of the Holy Spirit who guides you in truth, and thus preserves you.

I hope that I made my case Biblically, and I urge you to study the verses I've given.

[fccool]

Here's another verse to sum up my point:

As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.

1 John 2:27

How is it that we are taught? Through the anointing. How are we anointed? How was Jesus anointed?

(Luke 4:18-19 NKJV) "The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed; {19} To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD."

But what happens if you teach the law and neglect the basics????? People will have the wrong idea that it is by the obedience to the law that we are saved and thus "sealed". It is simply not true. Obedience is a result, and we can't keep the law except through the Spirit.

[Taylor]

Check this website out for "why Earnie Knoll is not a true prophet" . I haven't read it all myself and do not know all the contributors but they make some good points.

http://www.notaprophet.org/

[John317]

Thanks, Taylor. I read quite a lot and made up my mind.

In one of the dreams, "Love and Rebuke," the Herald says, regarding those who have not accepted the dreams,

Quote:

Kneel, confess your sins lest the streams and rivers dry up and the horse that drinks die, lest you walk the face of the earth and every ear turn away from you as the words you speak fall like rocks from your mouth. Repent lest the Lord God spew you out of His mouth as boiling seawater.

Let he that holds the keys to the vault repent for the evil you have done and spoken against Me and My servant. Let him prostrate himself before the Master Key Maker and ask for forgiveness and walk no more in the ways of your errors. Let him confess before all of misconstruing what he knows is truth as he has been shown. Confess before all lest the keys be knocked from your hand and placed in the hands of another.

Let this person humble them self before the Lord of truth for speaking errors. Let this person acknowledge a proud boasting walk and ask for humbleness. Let this person admit their faults of using a tongue that speaks against truth lest that tongue be cut off and you walk the earth dumb.

Let all who have spoken evil against the message and messenger I have sent prostrate themselves before the throne of God. Ask for forgiveness in the name of His Son. Let them admit fault and take up their cross and follow the path of Jesus. Let them do this before the book is closed and the name is not written in the book."

I wouldn't believe for a moment that this is coming from an angel of God. This, as well as what the Herald said about tithing, shows me that the source is not who he claims to be.

[Gail]

You wouldn't believe who gave me a real lecture about this man's dreams before. It was someone who I viewed as a real steadfast Adventist Christian.

I was not impressed when I read the things on his website.

How can our more traditional members buy into this stuff? THAT is scary to me. If those who are the most conservative fall for it, what chance do I have? I am not a theologian and not the most informed about spiritual things.

[Taylor]

Thanks, Taylor. I read quite a lot and made up my mind.

In one of the dreams, "Love and Rebuke," the Herald says, regarding those who have not accepted the dreams,

Quote:

Kneel, confess your sins lest the streams and rivers dry up and the horse that drinks die, lest you walk the face of the earth and every ear turn away from you as the words you speak fall like rocks from your mouth. Repent lest the Lord God spew you out of His mouth as boiling seawater.

Let he that holds the keys to the vault repent for the evil you have done and spoken against Me and My servant. Let him prostrate himself before the Master Key Maker and ask for forgiveness and walk no more in the ways of your errors. Let him confess before all of misconstruing what he knows is truth as he has been shown. Confess before all lest the keys be knocked from your hand and placed in the hands of another.

Let this person humble them self before the Lord of truth for speaking errors. Let this person acknowledge a proud boasting walk and ask for humbleness. Let this person admit their faults of using a tongue that speaks against truth lest that tongue be cut off and you walk the earth dumb.

Let all who have spoken evil against the message and messenger I have sent prostrate themselves before the throne of God. Ask for forgiveness in the name of His Son. Let them admit fault and take up their cross and follow the path of Jesus. Let them do this before the book is closed and the name is not written in the book."

I wouldn't believe for a moment that this is coming from an angel of God. This, as well as what the Herald said about tithing, shows me that the source is not who he claims to be.

Glad it was helpful to you. I agree that Ernie Knoll's visions or claims of being "from God" are in fact not from God. I don't think he is a "bad person" but is certainly misled.

[John317]

Glad it was helpful to you. I agree that Ernie Knoll's visions or claims of being "from God" are in fact not from God. I don't think he is a "bad person" but is certainly misled.

Exactly my thoughts too. I don't know him or claim he's a bad person, just that the Harold figure in his dreams is not of God. "To the law and to the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

[David-Kingsley]

I understand there are different opinions.

Still, when reading each of the messages in all of the different dreams, the messages they deliver seem to be pure and biblical. I have not come across any false truths in any of the dreams concerning views of Heaven, the future, the Sabbath and Sunday, the hastiness of our mission, Jesus' imminent comming, the preparation of clean vessels for the Holy Spirit to dwell in/diet, earthquakes/disasters, the four winds kept from blowing, God the Father, His Son, Jesus, His pleading for us in the Most Holy Place, the cross, standing on the truth, Creeping Compromise... All of the topics and teachings are true.

It is also interesting that David Gates (together with seven other pastors) who surely is a dedicated pastor working in the mission fields, winning souls for Christ, also comes to the same conclusion! This is not proof, but strong evidence. He himself mentions the dreams in "The Converging Crisis, part 2".

Think over it: What is the reason that we want to know whether this is of God or of Satan? -We do not want to be deceived. How can we be decieved? -By getting the wrong information, believing false truths.

As I do believe the Bible only should be the main pillar of faith, as well as the test of faith, I do believe it is important to believe God's prophets in general when they appear, just like in "the olden days".

The dreams to me indicate how important it is to surrender all to God, and get ready for the tough times ahead, dreams or no dreams! (You get the point). I believe there are many who are not! And even though there were, it still is important.

The views of Heaven: we'll see when we get there. The future: we know it will be utterly horrifying, regardless of the details in the dreams. The condition of our people: asleep, idle.

If the angel's thorough testimony of Jesus' divinity as fully God and fully Man isn't adequate enough according to what the Bible clearly says about the testing of spirits, I find it almost impossible for human beings to differentiate between divine revelation and satanic deception.

Referring to the dream "Testing the Spirits". Has it now become unsafe to trust the Bible fully by its word when it comes to this topic? And notice the many ways of testing the spirits mentioned in the dream above... To me the strongest proofs are "Keeps the Commandments of God" (which the devil initially attacked and uttered distrust against) and "Loves Jesus/Loves Others" and "Confirms that Jesus is Son of the Living God" (the main rival of the devil, in case you didn't notice).

The major part is quoted from the Scriptures itself.

Think of it this way:

If I were wrong and the dreams were not from our Father, I would at least have the Bible's word on my side.