Killing off the smaller churches

[LynnDel]

I remember it used to be that Adventist church members could say that a small church could have a pastor even when the small church couldn't afford his salary, because of our system of centralizing the tithe.

For some years now there has been a new formula - church membership - for determining how many pastors a church gets. Four years ago this resulted in my local church - even though the 60+ regular members' tithe more than paid a full-time pastor's salary - having to accept the fact that we were not deemed to be large enough to merit a full-time pastor.

Since that happened, church attendance has fallen off steadily, with some going to larger, more distant churches who have as many as six pastors on staff, and some not going to church at all.

The whole thing makes me alternately mad and then sad.

Is this happening all over?

LD

[John317]

I'm not sure if it's happening all over. I live near Loma Linda, and of course we have lots of churches and many pastors.

But I think we should begin practicing what the "Jehovah's Witnesses" do. They don't have any paid pastors in their churches but they have a lot more participation by everyone. Everyone gets the training to do teaching or preaching. That way, they don't have too many people coming in order to sit and listen. On Thursdays they have classes in public speaking and people talk for as little as five minutes whereas others with more experience may talk for 10 or 15.

I'd love to see us do things like that.

In central Tennessee some pastors had 4 or 5 churches, so he usually only got around to each one about once a month. Under those conditions, the members have to learn to do most of the work themselves. It wasn't easy at first, but in the long run it may be best for the spirituality of the members.

What do you think?

[fccool]

Believe it or not, I was asking myself the same question as I attended one of the smaller church the past Sabbath. The question I've had is slightly different though.

The person who was leading the Sabbath school in the church was extremely knowledgeable and well versed in Bible, yet the Church depended on the traveling pastors, who would have to travel 2 hrs, just so that Church would have a pastor that Sabbath.

My question was: Why can't a qualified church member assume a position of a pastor if he feels that's God's calling? After all, Paul supported his own living on many occasions when he was evangelizing and pastoring. So, why in these situations could the members have pastors among their own congregation?

The answer was that the pastors have to go trough the Adventist Seminary, and to be ordained and allocated by the conference. When I asked, why would they have to go through all of that knowing that they most likely would not end up in the church they want to help? Why not just let the qualified local individuals to feel that void if they are willing to sacrifice their time. After all, the traveling pastors are not really pastors of these congregations, but they are more like "guest speakers". Teaching is not the only role of a pastor.

The answer was: "I guess we don't want to set a president event." The conference is too afraid of decentralization, because the other churches would take on similar model.

I absolutely agree with John. In fact, I think that the early church model was exactly such. I don't think we have enough audience participation in today's churches. Our discussions are scripted by the study guides, which I believe makes people rely on study guides instead of digging on their own. We need more open ended Sabbath school classes, as these actually cause people to think about issues untouched by the scripted guides and sermons.

You can't experience growth through evangelism in churches where members can not explain in plain and clear words what exactly is that they believe. We need to be able to know when asked, without running to study guides, or Dough Bachelor to conduct prophesy seminars.

[Gerr]

From what I have read in the Review, the growth of our church outside the USA is inversely proportional to the number of pastors. For 7 months we had no pastor in our little church of 48 regular attendees. Only one person stopped coming. No one moved away. Since we've previously shared the pastor with another church, the elders and the deacons did the preaching. IMHO, the elders' sermons do not take a back seat to many pastors that I have heard over the years. We now have a pastor, but because of our small size, we still share him with another small church, so the elders continue to share the pulpit. That one person who had stopped coming, started coming back again, but it seems only on Sabbaths that the pastor is here.

If people stop attending because there is no paid pastor around, to me that says volumes about the people who move away or stop coming.

Gerry

[Gerr]

I am one of 3 SS teachers that rotate teaching the class. I personally use the SS quarterly as a take off for discussion. I hate it when someone goes through the lesson day by day and almost question by question. THAT would drive me to go to another church more than having no pastor!

Gerry

[Woody]

I am one of 3 SS teachers that rotate teaching the class. I personally use the SS quarterly as a take off for discussion. I hate it when someone goes through the lesson day by day and almost question by question. THAT would drive me to go to another church more than having no pastor!

Gerry

Yep. There has to be balance. What I don't like is ... I will faithfully study the lesson ... and then go to church and have the lesson much ignored. I come prepared to discuss it and would like to bring out questions and insights ... but don't have the chance and feel cheated.

Anyone else out there that can share my tears?

If the lesson is not used ... that is fine ... but give me the topic ahead of time and let me study so I can come to SS prepared to participate.

Then we have the issue of visitors. I think there should be at least one SS class that is studying the lesson. Just my two cents.

[Woody]

From what I have read in the Review, the growth of our church outside the USA is inversely proportional to the number of pastors. For 7 months we had no pastor in our little church of 48 regular attendees. Only one person stopped coming. No one moved away. Since we've previously shared the pastor with another church, the elders and the deacons did the preaching. IMHO, the elders' sermons do not take a back seat to many pastors that I have heard over the years. We now have a pastor, but because of our small size, we still share him with another small church, so the elders continue to share the pulpit. That one person who had stopped coming, started coming back again, but it seems only on Sabbaths that the pastor is here.

If people stop attending because there is no paid pastor around, to me that says volumes about the people who move away or stop coming.

Gerry

My pastor is trying to work with the elders to get them more prepared and comfortable with preaching. One of our churches has great support for this and good abilities. The other church has NO desire to do any preaching. So when the pastor is not there ... it really suffers with sermon tapes and the occasional traveling preacher. Each church is very different. Some only come when the pastor is there and some only come when the pastor is not there. Some times it depends upon ones gender.

[Woody]

I remember it used to be that Adventist church members could say that a small church could have a pastor even when the small church couldn't afford his salary, because of our system of centralizing the tithe.

For some years now there has been a new formula - church membership - for determining how many pastors a church gets. Four years ago this resulted in my local church - even though the 60+ regular members' tithe more than paid a full-time pastor's salary - having to accept the fact that we were not deemed to be large enough to merit a full-time pastor.

Since that happened, church attendance has fallen off steadily, with some going to larger, more distant churches who have as many as six pastors on staff, and some not going to church at all.

The whole thing makes me alternately mad and then sad.

Is this happening all over?

LD

I suspect you will be seeing more and more of this ... especially with the way the economy is now. Our conference has a hiring freeze on now due to the recent bad economy.

[Ellen]

"If the lesson is not used ... that is fine ... but give me the topic ahead of time and let me study so I can come to SS prepared to participate."

I agree, some times I have been caught visiting a church and not knowing the class I chose doesn't use the quarterly. Once a person brought up a point in the lesson and the teacher cut him off saying, we agreed when we started that we would NOT use the lesson! This class was just a getting to know you and feel good period.

I also have a strong feeling that most churches don't use the Sabbath School to do its job. It is NOT another church service. When the leaders just read a page from a devotional book and read the mission story all one person - what appeal is there to even attend?

It is intended to unite and enthuse the members to grow the church so new people will be interested in becoming members of the church. Participation, involvement, enthusiasm. Our SS department has gone to a lot of work preparing pertinent interesting programmes but to put them on effectively takes some work and preparation AHEAD of Sabbath and COMMUNICATION with others to take a part.

I see so many little churches not even having a sabbath school programme and just having a lesson IF enough people want it before church!

[Woody]

So very well stated Ellen. Thank you. This is a big issue on my heart also.

[rush4hire]

Why can't a qualified church member assume a position of a pastor if he feels that's God's calling? After all, Paul supported his own living on many occasions when he was evangelizing and pastoring. So, why in these situations could the members have pastors among their own congregation?

[carolaa]

Originally Posted By: LynnDel

I remember it used to be that Adventist church members could say that a small church could have a pastor even when the small church couldn't afford his salary, because of our system of centralizing the tithe.

For some years now there has been a new formula - church membership - for determining how many pastors a church gets. Four years ago this resulted in my local church - even though the 60+ regular members' tithe more than paid a full-time pastor's salary - having to accept the fact that we were not deemed to be large enough to merit a full-time pastor.

Since that happened, church attendance has fallen off steadily, with some going to larger, more distant churches who have as many as six pastors on staff, and some not going to church at all.

The whole thing makes me alternately mad and then sad.

Is this happening all over?

LD

I suspect you will be seeing more and more of this ... especially with the way the economy is now. Our conference has a hiring freeze on now due to the recent bad economy.

In Texas Conference, I believe the pastor allocation is based on minimums for tithe, membership, and attendance.

[Gail]

We are so dependent on pastors! I hear stories about pastors in S. America being spread out between umpteen churches, leaving the members to do the work. I think it can be done!

Home churches? Everybody having a turn at speaking? How creative can we get? I like these ideas!

[Woody]

[LynnDel]

Our church was actually doing much better, working and pulling together, in between pastors. Once the pastor came, a lot of people sat back and said, "Whew! We can rest now!" But the pastor, being part-time, could not do as much as the church was hoping. It's not so much that the members don't want to work, but many of them have to work very hard - to keep their children in church school for example - leaving little time left for family life if they consent to be involved in various church committees and areas of service. Family has to come before committees.

Another thing that can happen, and I've experienced it, is when the pastor wants to do everything himself, taking over from the members what they enjoyed doing and could continue doing well, and either does not want to delegate responsibility or doesn't trust his elders and other church servants to take responsibility for areas of service. Too bad, because letting leaders and elders do such things would greatly lessen the burden on his own time.

[doctorj]

The best Pastors are keen leaders who enable church-folk to get things done. If a Pastor does this leadership role well he/she can handle two or three smaller churches well. I know that it can be done well because I grew up in a Pastor's family. My dad often had three or four churches to attend. And each of these churches was a growing church.

[Woody]

Quote:

If a Pastor does this leadership role well he/she can handle two or three smaller churches well. I know that it can be done well because I grew up in a Pastor's family.

Depends upon the makeup of the church.