What is the Omega of Apostasy, Is it an attack on the Sanctuary Truth?

[messenger]

What is the Omega of Apostasy in Adventisim? Is it an attack on the Sanctuary Message?

I believe that the Omega of Apostasy Is a last day attack on the Sanctuary Message of Daniel 8:14 and the writings of Ellen G. White.

Our Sanctuary Doctrine

“Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” Dan. 8:14.

“God bids us give our time and strength to the work of preaching to the people the messages that stirred men and women in 1843 and 1844. . . .

My brethren, take your position where God bids you. Leave alone those who, after light has been repeatedly given them, have taken a stand on the opposite side. . . . Take up the work which has been given us. With the Word of God as your message, stand on the platform of truth and proclaim the soon coming of Christ. Truth, eternal truth, will prevail.

For more than half a century [i.e., since 1844] the different points of present truth have been questioned and opposed. New theories have been advanced as truth, which were not truth, and the Spirit of God revealed their error. As the great pillars of our faith have been presented, the Holy Spirit has borne witness to them, and especially is this so regarding the truths of the sanctuary question. Over and over again the

Holy Spirit has in a marked manner endorsed the preaching of this doctrine. But today, as in the past, some will be led to form new theories and to deny the truths upon which the Spirit of God has placed His approval.

Any man who seeks to present theories which would lead us from the light that has come to us on the ministration in the heavenly sanctuary should not be accepted as a teacher. A true understanding of the sanctuary question means much to us as a people. When we were earnestly seeking the Lord for light on that question, light came. In vision I was given

such a view of the heavenly sanctuary, and the ministration connected with the holy place, that for many days I could not speak of it.

I know from the light that God has given me that there should be a revival of the messages that have been given in the past, because men will seek to bring in new theories, and will try to prove that these theories are scriptural, whereas they are error, which, if allowed a place, will undermine faith in the truth. We are not to accept these suppositions and pass them along as truth. No, no; we must not move from

the platform of truth on which we have been established.

There will always be those who are seeking for something new, and who stretch and strain the Word of God to make it support their ideas and theories. Let us, brethren, take the things that God has given us, and which His Spirit has taught us is truth, and believe them, leaving alone those theories which His Spirit has not endorsed.” >From Devotional: Our Father Cares, p. 271.

“One will arise, and still another, with new light, which contradicts the light that God has given under the demonstration of His Holy Spirit. . . . We are not to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. They gather together a mass of Scripture and pile it as proof around their asserted theories. This has been done over and over again during the past fifty years. And while the Scriptures are God’s Word, and are to be respected, the application of them, if such application moves one pillar of the foundation that God has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake.”—Selected Messages, book 1, p. 161.

Signs That God will Purify His Church-Shaking and Sifting Times!

“When the shaking comes, by the introduction of false theories, these surface readers, anchored nowhere, are like shifting sand. They slide into any position to suit the tenor of their feelings of bitterness.”—Testimonies to Ministers, p. 112.

“Not having received the love of the truth, they will be taken in the delusions of the enemy; they will give heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils and will depart from the faith.”—Testimonies, vol. 6, p. 401.

“As the storm approaches, a large class who have professed faith in the third angel’s message, but have not been sanctified through obedience to the truth, abandon their position, and join the ranks of the opposition.”—The Great Controversy, p. 608.

“I asked the meaning of the shaking I had seen, and was shown that it would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans. This will have its effect upon the heart of the receiver, and will lead him to exalt the standard and pour forth the straight truth. Some will not bear this straight testimony. They will rise up against it, and this will cause a shaking among God’s people.”—Testimonies, vol. 1, p. 181.

“The enemy will bring in false theories, such as the doctrine that there is no sanctuary. This is one of the points on which there will be a departing from the faith.”—Evangelism, p. 224. See Ibid., pp. 221-225; The Great Controversy, pp. 423, 488; Review and Herald, Jan. 21, 1890; Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 575. (Like Desmond Ford and others)

“One thing is certain: Those Seventh-day Adventists who take their stand under Satan’s banner will first give up their faith in the warnings and reproofs contained in the Testimonies of God’s Spirit.”—Selected Messages, book 3, p. 84. See also Ibid., pp. 48, 83; Testimonies, vol., 4, p. 211.

“Many a star that we have admired for its brilliance will then go out in darkness.”—Prophets and Kings, p. 188. ( Like Desmond Ford and others)

“Many will show that they are not one with Christ, that they are not dead to the world, that they may live with Him; and frequent will be the apostasies of men who have occupied responsible positions.”—Review and Herald, Sept. 11, 1888. See also MR, vol. 13, pp. 379, 381.

“Many will stand in our pulpits with the torch of false prophecy in their hands, kindled from the hellish torch of Satan. . . . Some will go out from among us who will bear the ark no longer. But these cannot make walls to obstruct the truth; for it will go onward and upward to the end.”—Last Day Events, p. 179. See also Selected Messages, book 3, p. 385; MR, vol. 7, p. 192.

“The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out—the chaff separated from the precious wheat. This is a terrible ordeal, but nevertheless it must take place.”—Selected Messages, book 2, p. 380.

“The shaking of God blows away multitudes like dry leaves.”—Testimonies, vol. 4, p. 89. “As the storm approaches, a large class who have professed faith in the third angel’s message, but have not been sanctified through obedience to the truth, abandon their position and join the ranks of the opposition.”—The Great Controversy, p. 608. “Soon God’s people will be tested by fiery trials, and the great proportion of those who now appear to be genuine and true will prove to be base metal.”—Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 136.

“The broken ranks will be filled up by those represented by Christ as coming in at the eleventh hour. . . . Large numbers will be admitted who in these last days hear the truth for the first time.”—Letter 103, 1903, cited in Last Day Events, p. 182. See also Early Writings, p. 271; Testimonies, vol. 8, p. 41.

“When the religion of Christ is most held in contempt, when His law is most despised, then should our zeal be the warmest and our courage and firmness the most unflinching. To stand in defense of truth and righteousness when the majority forsake us, to fight the battles of the Lord when champions are few—this will be our test. At this time we must gather warmth from the coldness of others, courage from their cowardice, and loyalty from their treason.”—Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 136.

"We have now before us the alpha of this danger. The omega will be of a most startling nature." Selected Messages, vol.1, 197. "One thing it is certain is soon to be realized,—the great apostasy, which is developing and increasing and waxing stronger, and will continue to do so until the Lord shall descend from heaven with a shout." The New York Indicator, February 7, 1906.

"The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization. Were this reformation to take place, what would result? The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church, would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement. The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice, but God being removed, they would place their dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure." Selected Messages, vol. 1, 204, 205.

"Past history will be repeated; old controversies will arouse to new life, and peril will beset God's people on every side." Testimonies to Ministers, 116. "We have nothing to fear for the future except as we shall forget the way the Lord has led us." Testimonies to Ministers, 31.

The Omega of apostasy is an attack on the pillars of our faith. The pillars of our faith is the Sanctuary Message of Dan.8:14 this is the very foundation of our church. If you remove this foundational truth then the SDA Church and the writings of Ellen White are not true or relevant, neither is the Sabbath or the Law of God. This all has been happening since the late 1970's and 1980's when professor of Theology at Andrews Desmond Ford came out publicly with his views-false theories on the Dan. 8:14 that he had been teaching to his students for years. His coming out publicly with his false theories lead to a great apostasy in our church, thousands even left the ministry and until this day his false theories are taught as bible truth by many SDA theologian - pastors in our churches. Let me share some facts with you about this great on going Omega of apostasy.

"What was Mrs. White’s response to these “new ideas”? Writing to J. H. Kellogg in 1898, she said that some read the Bible without thorough study and then, “full of ardor and zeal, present theories which, if received, will counter work” that which had been received since 1844 as “a connected chain of truth. . . . These crave for new ideas and suppositions, which mar the symmetrical development of character. . . . Let such a one put his whole mind upon some idea which is not correct, and deformity rather than symmetry is developed.”66

"At the 1905 General Conference session in Washington, Ballenger presented three one-hour studies on his “new” light on the sanctuary doctrine. His main thrust was that Jesus, on ascending to heaven, entered the second apartment of the heavenly sanctuary, the Most Holy Place. Prior to the cross, He had been functioning in the first apartment, the Holy Place. Ballenger did not convince the committee members. The committee responded with a Biblical exegesis that had been worked out decades before and confirmed by revelation to Ellen White. The response seemed to have led to a stalemate." (Even today in the Adventist Church many theologians teach that Christ went into the Most Holy Place upon His ascension to heaven and quote several bible text from Hebrews out of context and openly contradict Ellen White and earlier traditional SDA Theologians on the 1844 Sanctuary Message. I posted a blog about the Dan.8:14 Sanctuary controversy in this forum, but it has been revised if you want to see it in its entirety go to my website just click on the link below

www.ConvincingEvidenceOfGod.com/bibletruthprophecy.aspx ) Also see my blog title " What is the So Called New Light or New Theology" in this forum.

“A decade or more of misconstruing the role of the Holy Spirit in salvation by faith weakened Ballenger’s understanding regarding Christ’s role in the atonement. Focusing his attention on the immediacy of the cleansed experience through claiming the Holy Spirit, he took his theological eyes off Christ’s function as High Priest, both in His first phase of ministry in the Holy Place and then in the Most Holy. Refusing to accept the correcting ministry of Ellen White, Ballenger began a course of attacking her credibility on theological matters as well as other areas.

In one of her public responses during this period, Mrs. White said: “In the future, deception of every kind is to arise, and we want solid ground for our feet. . . . Not one pin is to be removed from that which the Lord has established. The enemy will bring in false theories, such as the doctrine that there is no sanctuary. This is one of the points on which there will be a departing from the faith. . . . I am praying that the power of the Saviour will be exerted in behalf of those who have entered into the temptations of the enemy. They are not standing under the broad shield of Omnipotence.”67

Later she wrote: “He [ballenger] was gathering together a mass of scriptures such as would confuse minds because of his assertions and his misapplication of these scriptures, for the application was misleading and had not the bearing upon the subject at all which he claimed justified his position. Anyone can do this, and will follow his example to testify to a false position; but it was his own.”68

After noting how Ballenger reacted to her counsel in 1891, Mrs. White continued: “Now again our Brother Ballenger is presenting theories that cannot be substantiated by the Word of God. It will be one of the great evils that will come to our people to have the Scriptures taken out of their true place and so interpreted as to substantiate error that contradicts the light and the Testimonies that God has been giving us for the past half century. . . . I declare in the name of the Lord that the most dangerous heresies are seeking to find entrance among us as a people, and Elder Ballenger is making spoil of his own soul. The Lord has strengthened me to come the long journey to Washington to this meeting to bear my testimony in vindication of the truth of God’s Word, and the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in confirmation of Bible truth. The Word is sure and steadfast, and will stand the test.”

She continued: “There is not truth in the explanations of Scripture that Elder Ballenger and those associated with him are presenting. The words are right, but misapplied to vindicate error. We must not give countenance to his reasoning. He is not led of God. . . . I am instructed to say to Elder Ballenger, Your theories which have multitudes of fine threads, and need so many explanations, are not truth, and are not to be brought to the flock of God.”69

In one of the public sessions Ellen White was led to recount early experiences. As she had done on several earlier occasions,70 she described how, in the early years, intense Bible study preceded the “clear explanation of the passages we had been studying” that would be revealed to her in vision. None of this was done in secret. “The brethren knew that, when not in vision, I could not understand these matters, and they accepted, as light directly from heaven, the revelations given.”71

She presented several other messages to various groups at the 1905 session, each one warning both Ballenger and church leaders “not to mingle erroneous theories with the truth of God.” She emphasized that he had “been allowing his mind to receive and believe specious error.” If his theories were accepted, they “would undermine the pillars of our faith.” One of the problems was that in removing “the old landmarks,” they were “working as blind men.”72

Under God’s illumination, Ellen White’s clarifying and unifying leadership in these four theological crises—Salvation by Faith encounter at Minneapolis in 1888; Holy Flesh Movement in 1901 at Battle Creek; Pantheism crisis in 1903 at Washington, D. C.; and the Sanctuary challenge in 1905—was remarkably timely as well as determinative. No other person involved in these four potentially divisive crises was able to unify and set the course for the future. As noted often by many, “It was she who played a key role in resolving these issues. . . . Without Ellen White’s authoritative voice, the outcome may have been very different.”73

Ellen White was indeed the voice of the Advent movement, but not by spelling out each theological detail and settling each crisis with Sinai thunder. She worked to build up the best thinking of the moment, waiting at times until that best thinking ripened so that she did not break the equation initiated many years before: sound Bible study + confirmation by divine revelation = present truth.

It seems that Mrs. White’s highest, greatest contribution was to keep the big picture in view, sensing always the harmful consequences of false theories. Clear in her mind was the full-orbed understanding of the gospel, and any theory that blurred any aspect of the gospel got her careful and concerned attention. She steered the church away from legalism on the right and romantic fanaticism on the left, always concerned with unity and with the distinctive mission of the Adventist Church."

Endnotes

[Top of Document]

1.Letter 117, 1910, cited in Selected Messages, book 3, p. 32.

2.The Great Controversy, p. 186.

3.Acts 20:28-31; Col. 2:8, 16-23; 2 Tim. 4:3-5; Titus 1:9-16.

4.“In later years I have been shown that the false theories advanced in the past have by no means been given up. As favorable opportunities come, they will have a resurrection. Let us not forget that everything is to be shaken that can be shaken.”—Life Sketches, pp. 92, 93; see Selected Messages, book 2, pp. 25-30.

5.Life Sketches, p. 83.

6.Ibid., p. 87. See also p. 50.

7.Ibid., pp. 85, 86.

8.Testimonies, vol. 1, p. 72.

9.Ibid., p. 97.

10. Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, pp. 92, 94, 97. In her writings, Ellen White referred to A. T. Jones and E. J. Waggoner more than 200 times. The emphasis given to “righteousness by faith” at Minneapolis in 1888 was distinctively different from the understanding prevailing in Protestantism during the nineteenth century, a fact that has not always been understood by those who have written of that important period.

11. Letter 82, 1888, in The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials, vol. 1, p. 182; “Brethren . . . I must tell you plainly that the course pursued toward me and my work since the Gen. Conf. at Minneapolis—your resistance of the light and warnings that God has given through me—has made my labor fifty times harder than it would otherwise have.”—Letter 1, 1890, Ibid., vol. 2, pp. 659; “the most grievous trial of my life.”—Manuscript 30, 1889, Ibid., vol. 1, p. 354; “one of the saddest chapters in the history of the believers in present truth.”—Ibid., vol. 4, p. 1796.

Blessings be upon you in Christ, Matthew

[John317]

“We are in the day of atonement, and we are to work in harmony with Christ’s work of cleansing the sanctuary. . . . We must now set before the people the work which by faith we see our great High Priest accomplishing in the heavenly sanctuary.”—Review and Herald, Jan. 21, 1890; “The mediatorial work of Christ, the grand and holy mysteries of redemption, are not studied or comprehended by the people who claim to have light in advance of every other people on the face of the earth. Were Jesus personally upon earth, He would address a large number who claim to believe present truth with the words He addressed to the Pharisees: ‘Ye do err, not knowing the Scriptures, or the power of God.’ . . .

“There are old, yet new truths still to be added to the treasures of our knowledge. We do not understand or exercise faith as we should. . . . We are not called to worship and serve God by the use of the means employed in former years. God requires higher service now than ever before. He requires the improvement of the heavenly gifts. He has brought us into a position where we need higher and better things than ever have been needed before.”—Ibid., Feb. 25, 1890; “We have been hearing His voice more distinctly in the message that has been going for the last two years. . . . We have only just begun to get a little glimmering of what faith is.”—Ibid., Mar. 11, 1890.

Thanks very much for posting this message.

I would like to hear more on how we are to work in harmony with Christ's work of cleansing the sanctuary.

Why is it important to know these things?

[Reddogs]

Here is what one of the brothers put in a forum that outlines what is happening today very clear..

"The Omega of apostasy is an attack on the pillars of our faith. The pillars of our faith is the Sanctuary Message of Dan.8:14 this is the very foundation of our church. If you remove this foundational truth then the SDA Church and the writings of Ellen White are not true or relevant, neither is the Sabbath or the Law of God. This all has been happening since the late 1970's and 1980's when professor of Theology at Andrews Desmond Ford came out publicly with his views-false theories on the Dan. 8:14 that he had been teaching to his students for years. His coming out publicly with his false theories lead to a great apostasy in our church, thousands even left the ministry and until this day his false theories are taught as bible truth by many SDA theologian - pastors in our churches."

[Gerr]

Omega is the last letter in the Greek alphabet.

Quote:

The very LAST deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God. "Where there is no vision, the people perish" (Prov 29:18). Satan will work ingeniously, in different ways and through different agencies, to unsettle the confidence of God's remnant people in the true testimony. LDE 177,178 (1 SM 48)

I believe you are all on target. The Omega of apostasy is here. And it is indeed startling, because it calls for the renunciation of truths that have been established by remarkable manifestations of the Spirit of God. Many SDAs today do not believe in the prophetic ministry of EGW. She is relegated to the status on par with pastors today, and there's someone in this forum who even puts her below at least one pastor although that pastor quotes her extensively!

Yes, many SDAs today have abandoned the sanctuary doctrine along with the investigative judgment, and continue to invite D. Ford to speak in our churches! Yeah, the Trojan horse is within the gates! And, yeah, the shaking is here. And the shaking will even get stronger, until the only ones that remain are those that are "settled" in the truth.

Quote:

We have far more to fear from within than from without. The hindrances to strength and success are far greater from the church itself than from the world. LDE 156 (1SM 122)

We are in the soul-searching time of the Day of Atonement. I firmly believe this. And I hope and pray that the damage will be minimal.

Gerry

[BobRyan]

Amen! Even so Lord Jesus - come quickly!

[John317]

... The Omega of apostasy is here. And it is indeed startling, because it calls for the renunciation of truths that have been established by remarkable manifestations of the Spirit of God. Many SDAs today do not believe in the prophetic ministry of EGW.

Yes, many SDAs today have abandoned the sanctuary doctrine along with the investigative judgment..... We are in the soul-searching time of the Day of Atonement.

Completely agree with you.

Ellen White wrote of a technique used by Dr. John H. Kellogg. He would say he believed, but then turn right around and say or do things that proved that he didn't believe at all. But saying he believed made people comfortable in trusting him and listening to him. If he had told the truth, people's alarms would have gone off and they wouldn't have listened to a word he said.

[skyblue888]

Letters to the Churches by M.L. Andreason is a must in order to understand where this omega took place and who was involved.

If you are interested I will post the letters.

sky

[messenger]

Sure Brother Sky, please go ahead and post them. I have read them before and they are very good and they do explain where and how the problem began. And I am sure there are some that may have never read them before.

Blessings be upon you in Christ, Matthew

[skyblue888]

Should I start a different thread for Letters to the Churches or post them here?

thanks

sky

[messenger]

I think you should start a new thread for the Letters... they are very long and deserve their own thread etc.

blessings, Matt

[John317]

I agree with you. I have read them before also.

If anyone wants to post them, try to spread them out. You might post part of a section, then wait for people to respond to it before posting the next part, etc.

[skyblue888]

john, i wouldn't do it any other way!

What i wanted to know is, should I post the letters here or start a separate thread?

I have spent a lot of hours working on this series and typed them word for word and added a few statements from Mrs. White but the bulk is from brother Andreason and they are not necessarily in the same order.

sky

[skyblue888]

LETTERS TO THE CHURCHES

by M.L. Andreason, an emeritus professor at Andrews University in those years...

THE WHITE BOARD OF TRUSTEES

Early in the summer of 1957 I had placed in my hands, providentially, I believe, a copy of the minutes of the White Board of Trustees for May of that year. For those who are not familiar with this Board, I may state that it is a small committee appointed to have in trust the large volume of letters, manuscripts, and books left by the late Mrs. E.G. White. In counsel with the officers of the denomination, the board decides who is to have access to the material, and to what extent and for what purpose, what is to be published and what is not; and what material is not to be made available at all.

Much of the work of the committee consists in examining and editing those writings and recommending for publication such matter as appears to be of permanent value. This work is of great importance to the church, for only that which is released by the board sees the light of day. During her lifetime Mrs. White herself did much of the work of selecting and editing, and in all cases she had the oversight of what was done. All knew that whatever was publisheed was under her supervision and that it had her approval. The board now has taken over this work.

A CHRISTIAN CHURCH, NOT A SECT!

According to the White minutes, it was on the first day of May, 1957, that two men, members of the committee which had been appointed to write the book that came to be known as Questions on Doctrine, were invited by the board to meet with them to discuss a question that had received some consideration at a meeting the previous January. It concerned statements made by Mrs. White in regard to the atonement now in progress in the sanctuary above. This conception did not agree with the evangelicals. To understand this fully, and its importance, it is necessary to review some history.

The Adventist leaders had for some time been in contact with two ministers of another faith, evangelicals, Dr. Barnhouse and Mr. Martin, respectively editor and an assistant editor of the religious journal Eternity, published in Philadelphia, and had discussed with them various of our doctrines. In these conversations, as in the numerous letters that passed between them, the evangelicals had raised serious objections to some of our beliefs.

The question of greatest importance was whether Adventists could be considered Christians while holding such views as the doctrine of the sanctuary, the 2,300 days, the date 1844, the investigative judgment and Christ's atoning work in the sanctuary in Heaven since 1844. Our men expressed the desire that the Adventist church be reckoned as one of the regular Protestant churches, a Christian church, not a sect.

The two groups spent "hundreds of hours" studying and wrote many hundreds of pages. The evangelicals visited our headquarters in Takoma Park, and our men visited Philadelphia and were guests at Dr. Barnhouse in his comfortable home. From time to time other men were called into consultation on such matters as the Voice of Prophecy and our periodicals, all with a view of ascertaining what stood in the way of our being recognized as a Christian denomination.

to be continued

[skyblue888]

Should I wait for your comments before the next post or should I just keep posting?

sky

[skyblue888]

All right then. Thanks messenger.

sky

[messenger]

Hey Sky, you are very polite brother, but you do not need my permission to do anything. Just do whatever you feel that the Lord is impressing upon you to do!

blessings, Matthew

[BobRyan]

#1. Take the time to actually read "Kingdom of the Cults" by Walter Martin. There you will find his presentation on Seventh-day Adventism as he argues the case for why they should NOT be considered a cult.

Hint -- it had very little at all to do with the 1844 Investigative judgment.

#2. Dr Martin took a lot of heat for that pro-SDA position when it came to handing out "Cult labels" because Hoekema had already released a book labeling Adventism as a cult -- by ignoring our 27 Fundamental beliefs and simply posting wild comments found "in print" some place. His argument was that you did not need to worry about SDAs actually believing that wild stuff to call them a cult -- all you had to do is find a SDA source some place crazy enough to "say it and get it published" to then tar and feather all of Adventism with it.

How sad.

#3. Evangelicals themselves have a wide variety of differences between them AND they do not consider Catholics, Anglicans, Presbyterian, Lutherans to be "a cult" simply because they are not "Evangelical" -- so WHAT ARE they focused on?? Hint -- NOT the "investigative judgment".

They focus on the following areas.

1. Who is Christ -- (i.e do you believe in the trinity)?

2. What was Christ -- (i.e God - man... or just sinful man)?

3. Do you use another source as your authority and rule for doctrine -- other than the Bible? Do your doctrines stand or fall "Sola scriptura"?

4. Do you believe in the virgin birth, the bodily death burial and resurrection of Christ?

5. Do you accept Righteousness by faith -- or do you argue that people in fact work their way to salvation.

-----

The "answer" in Questions on Doctrines" (Also published in our 27 FB book) -- showed that on all these points SDAs are rock solid!!

Dr Martin's review of Adventism is not simply to defend it -- he also points out all the areas where he objects -- but he states clearly that just because we do not share all points of doctrine in common with him or any other Evangelical -- it does not make us a cult since even evangelicals do not share the same views on all doctrines.

Today -- Dr Martin's disciple "Hank Hannegraph" continues the work on the Bible Answer man - that Dr Martin started. However Hank is much less favorable and cogent when it comes to SDA doctrine clearly defined and the criteria Dr Martin used to determine what is and is not a cult.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

So where is the problem?

The problem is not so much outside of the SDA church as it is with small fringe groups inside the SDA church. For example there are tiny fringe groups that deny the clear statements in the 27 FB, and in the Bible and by Ellen White -- regarding the Trinity -- they simply choose to reject the Bible doctrine on the trinity.

There are those who do not understand the Bible concept of a substitutionary atoning sacrifice and how that relates to the sinful state of man -- and his sinful nature -- therefore some small fringe groups make wild guesses that Christ had a nature "full of sin" as is ours (see Romans 3:9-13) in spite of evidence from the Bible, Ellen White and the 27 Fundamental beliefs -- to the contrary.

There are also those who deny the assurance of salvation provided in the Gospel according to scripture - and according to Ellen White and according to the 27 Fundamental beliefs.

Though we seldom find all these faulty beliefs in one single person -- now and then it happens.

While we can always be happy to have each fringe group have their own views of life -- it does nothing for "accuracy" to blame all of their errors on Adventists in general. That was the point Dr Martin was trying to make.

in Christ,

Bob

[messenger]

#1. Take the time to actually read "Kingdom of the Cults" by Walter Martin. There you will find his presentation on Seventh-day Adventism as he argues the case for why they should NOT be considered a cult.

Hint -- it had very little at all to do with the 1844 Investigative judgment.

#2. Dr Martin took a lot of heat for that pro-SDA position when it came to handing out "Cult labels" because Hoekema had already released a book labeling Adventism as a cult -- by ignoring our 27 Fundamental beliefs and simply posting wild comments found "in print" some place. His argument was that you did not need to worry about SDAs actually believing that wild stuff to call them a cult -- all you had to do is find a SDA source some place crazy enough to "say it and get it published" to then tar and feather all of Adventism with it.

How sad.

#3. Evangelicals themselves have a wide variety of differences between them AND they do not consider Catholics, Anglicans, Presbyterian, Lutherans to be "a cult" simply because they are not "Evangelical" -- so WHAT ARE they focused on?? Hint -- NOT the "investigative judgment".

Hey Bob, I have to disagree with you here. The compromises made to get the approval of the Evangelicals and to publish the book "Questions on Doctrines" had a lot to do with the Sanctuary Message or Investigative Judgment being changed or watered down along with other doctrine points. And those unknown brethern who were involved have remained unknown until this day were part of the Omega of Apostasy in this was back in the 1950's but the Omega of Apostasy got much worse just as Ellen White said it would last until the end and grew down through the years with Brimsmead and more so with Desmond Ford in the 1970's-80's. Check out the following statements by M.L. Andreason, Emeritus professor at Andrews University

A CHANGE OF EMPHASIS

Of late years there has been a change of emphasis in the Ministry and not for the better. This change coincides with the period in which our leaders have been in close contact and rapport with the Evangelicals. The trend was in evidence before, but now has blossomed. As an example of this, I shall call attention to an article in the February, 1957, issue entitled, "The Priestly Application of the Atoning Act."

It is claimed that it "is the Adventist understanding of the atonement, confirmed and illustrated and clarified by the Spirit of Prophecy." As it has not been renounced or protested, we may justly conclude that it is officially approved.

The author gives a short tribute to the "magnyfying glass", the Spirit of Prophecy, then goes on to state that the atonement "... is not, on the one hand, limited just to the sacrificial death of Christ on the cross. On the other hand, neither is it confined to the ministry of our heavenly High Priest in the sanctuary above, on the antitypical day of atonement, or hour of God's judgment, as some of our forefathers first erroneously thought and wrote." Ministry, February, 1957, page 9.

The author stresses the fact that the Spirit of Prophecy clearly teaches that both these aspects are included, "one aspect being incomplete without the other, and each being the indispensable complement of the other". Ibid.

That is, both the death on the cross and Christ's ministry in the second apartment are necessary to atonement. With this, we are in full agreement. The death was a necessary part of the atonement. The one is incomplete without the other.

This point should be noted, for a few sentences further on, the author will say that the death on the cross is complete in itself; to quote: "The sacrificial act of the cross is a complete, perfect and final atonement for man's sin." Page 10.

After having first said that the sacrificial death was incomplete, he now says it is complete, perfect, and final. He does not consider the death merely as a partial atonement, but a complete and perfect and final one. With this we disagree. The two statements are irreconcilable.

This is more than merely an unfortunate wording. While in the next paragraph the author gives lip service to the need of a ministration in the sanctuary above, he leaves out every essential feature of the atonement and omits the dates which are essential to the Adventist concept of a final atonement, which justifies our existence as a people with the message for the world at this time.

In his explanation of Christ's work in the sanctuary, he does not refer to or mention Daniel 8:14: "Then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." Without this text, Christ's work in the sanctuary becomes meaningless. He does not mention 457 B.C. or the 70 weeks, or the middle of the week which pinpoints the time of the sacrifice on the cross, and is "... as a nail in a sure place," (Isaiah 22:23) to which we fasten the whole chronological scheme in prophecy and which also justifies the date, 1844.

Remove or change these dates, and Adventists are without an anchor for the chronological system climaxing in 1844, and are unable to justify their existence as a people who are to proclaim this most important message to the world for this time: "Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come." Revelation 14:7. Every one of these dates the author leaves out, and what remains, in the words of Dr. Barnhouse, "is flat, stale, and unprofitable." Eternity Extra, September 1956, page 4.

To be more precised, the offering of Christ upon the cross was full and complete but it was not the atonement in itself. It was the "condition" for the atonement.

"Christ's sacrifice in behalf of man was full and complete. The condition of the atonement had been fulfilled." A.A.29.

After His resurrection, Christ ascended up on High to make atonement:

"The intercession of Christ is that of presenting His divine merits in the offering of Himself to the Father as our Substitute and Surety; for He ascended up on High to make atonement for our transgressions." E.G. White, Signs of the Times, July 4, 1892.

He who spilled His own blood has been pleading His own divine merits before the Father in behalf of sinners. This is what constitutes the atonement in itself in its first phase, from His ascension to the first apartment of the heavenly sanctuary to His entry into the most holy place in 1844. Christ then continued to plead His own divine merits in behalf of sinners but the final atonement He will make when the mission of the Gospel is completed, at the end of the loud cry. Then Christ will place the sins of all the righteous upon the scapegoat.

Once upon Satan, these sins can never fall back upon the heads of His people. And then will the pronouncement be made:

"He who is righteous, let him be righteous still and he who is unrighteous, let him be unrighteous still." Rev.22:11.

This constitutes the final seal and Satan will be made to suffer for these sins in the wilderness for 1000 years before he is destroyed at the hand of the unrighteous after that time! See Ezekiel 28:7,8.

So on the 22nd of October 1844, Christ passed from the holy to the most holy apartment of the sanctuary above to make the final atonement:

"At the termination of the 2300 days in 1844, Christ then entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary, to perform the closing work of atonement, preparatory to His coming." The Great Controversy, 422.

This final atonement involves a work of investigation. It started with the dead professed people of God since Adam and would have passed on to the living if the message had been proclaimed in the power of the Holy Spirit. But unbelief on the part of God's people delayed that final work. We have been wandering in the "wilderness" ever since. by M.L. Andreason, Emeritus professor at Andrews University

"The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization. Were this reformation to take place, what would result? The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church, would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement. The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice, but God being removed, they would place their dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure." Selected Messages, vol. 1, 204, 205.

[BobRyan]

The Term "Atoning Sacrifice" is in scripture 1John 2:2 NIV.

The term is found repeatedly in Ellen White's Writings

Way too numerous to exhaust here -- but...

Quote:

The study of the incarnation of Christ, His atoning sacrifice, and mediatorial work, will employ the mind of the diligent student as long as time shall last.--Gospel Workers, p. 251.

Man could not atone for man. His sinful, fallen condition would constitute him an imperfect offering, an atoning sacrifice of less value than Adam before his fall. God made man perfect and upright, and after his transgression there could be no sacrifice acceptable to God for him, unless the offering made should in value be superior to man as He was in his state of perfection and innocency. {7ABC 461.2}

Justification by faith is to many a mystery. A sinner is justified by God when he repents of his sins. He sees Jesus upon the cross of Calvary.... He looks to the atoning Sacrifice as his only hope, through repentance toward God--because the laws of His government have been broken--and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ as the One who can save and cleanse the sinner from every transgression. {OHC 52.2}

The mediatorial work of Christ commenced with the commencement of human guilt and suffering and misery, as soon as man became a transgressor. The law was not abolished to save man and bring him into union with God. But Christ assumed the office of his surety and deliverer in becoming sin for man, that man might become the righteousness of God in and through Him who was one with the Father. Sinners can be justified by God only when He pardons their sins, remits the punishment they deserve, and treats them as though they were really just and had not sinned, receiving them into divine favor and treating them as if they were righteous. They are justified alone through the imputed righteousness of Christ. The Father accepts the Son, and through the atoning sacrifice of His Son accepts the sinner.... {OHC 52.3}

We are to pray in the name of Christ, our Mediator. Our petitions are of value only as they are offered in His name. He has bridged the gulf that sin has made. By His atoning sacrifice He has bound to Himself and His Father those who believe in Him. His is the only name under heaven whereby we may be saved. . . . {HP 78.2}

The price paid for our redemption, the infinite sacrifice of our heavenly Father in giving His Son to die for us, should give us exalted conceptions of what we may become through Christ. As the inspired apostle John beheld the height, the depth, the breadth of the Father's love toward the perishing race, he was filled with adoration and reverence; and, failing to find suitable language in which to express the greatness and tenderness of this love, he called upon the world to behold it. . . . What a value this places upon man! Through transgression, the sons of man become subjects of Satan. Through faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ, the sons of Adam may become the sons of God. By assuming human nature, Christ elevates humanity. Fallen men are placed where, through connection with Christ, they may indeed become worthy of the name, "sons of God." {AG 188.4}

The Atoning Sacrifice is SEEN IN Lev 16 IN the chapter.

No attempt at all can be made to separate the Sacrifice of Christ as the SIN OFFERING of Lev 16 FROM the Day of Atonement when you read Lev 16.

The real problem that they were addressing is "defining terms". Having spent more than a decade comparing notes with our evangelical brethren on this point -- I am very aware of the problem with "terms".

In the Evangelical view "Atonement" is pretty much limited to what the Bible and Adventist doctrine in the 28FB and QoD calls "Atoning Sacrifice" -- indeed just as Ellen White repeatedly referred to it.

What we call the "Atonement" in heaven -- they call the High Priestly work of Christ for us in heaven. What we see as the connection between Christ today as our High Priest and the work of High Priest in Lev 16 -- they totally ignore -- they basically draw a blank there.

Martin points this difference out as well in his book Kingdom of the Cults. The difference did not go away so he could write the book - rather the difference was "clearly spelled out" instead of leaving it in the gray foggy zone where Hoekema placed it for evangelicals.

Bottom line -- no change in our doctrine on this point that has ever been pointed out where an "actual detail" is shown to have changed other than the fact that we now pay much more attention to the frequent references by Ellen White to the term "Atoning Sacrifice" as a way to clarify where we agree and where we differ with Evangelicals.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

[

"The enemy of souls has sought to bring in the supposition that a great reformation was to take place among Seventh-day Adventists, and that this reformation would consist in giving up the doctrines which stand as the pillars of our faith, and engaging in a process of reorganization. Were this reformation to take place, what would result? The principles of truth that God in His wisdom has given to the remnant church, would be discarded. Our religion would be changed. The fundamental principles that have sustained the work for the last fifty years would be accounted as error. A new organization would be established. Books of a new order would be written. A system of intellectual philosophy would be introduced. The founders of this system would go into the cities, and do a wonderful work. The Sabbath of course, would be lightly regarded, as also the God who created it. Nothing would be allowed to stand in the way of the new movement. The leaders would teach that virtue is better than vice, but God being removed, they would place their dependence on human power, which, without God, is worthless. Their foundation would be built on the sand, and storm and tempest would sweep away the structure." Selected Messages, vol. 1, 204, 205.

Here is where I would argue that you are straining at an imaginary gnat while swallowing a camel. The problem we have is not that the Bible term "Atoning Sacrifice" should be ignored. It should Not.

The problem that we have is that some of our own SDA pastors are ignoring the serious historic doctrine on the Investigative Judgment and the part that message plays in preparing the saints for the close of probation and the second coming.

The denial of this doctrine that your post tries to attribute to the 27FB and QoD -- certainly exists in bold relief today. But that denial is NOT found in either the 27FB or in QoD - it is found in the pulpits as it is proclaimed by some who are IGNORING the 27FB and QoD and are instead teaching something almost identical to the evangelical concept of calvinism!!

There my friend is the elephant in the living room. Their doctrine is directly contrary to what we find in the 27FB and in QoD on the IJ! They do all they can to delete every affirmation of it!

in Christ,

Bob