3 Gods?

[Stan]

Am I the only one, picking up messages that there are really 3 Gods? Almost like they sit at a table and chat with each other? OR perhaps even argue?

Jesus, who was/is divine, never taught that..

He taught us to worship and pray to the Father..

[Nan]

Jesus accepted worship for Himself too, at least in Revelation, didn't He?

Some concepts are a bit difficult for us humans to get our heads around.

I will plagiarise something that Sammy sometimes uses to illustrate this point.

He compares the Godhead to a computer - the hard drive, the monitor and the keyboard. None can be used

effectively without the other. He likens God the Father to the hard drive, Jesus to the monitor - visible to the world - and the Holy Spirit to the keyboard, translating the what comes from the hard drive

into something comprehensible on the monitor.

I do not know if he actually originated this illustration, but many people find it helpful.

[Dr. Shane]

I have no problem with God being three separate entities. I think of God the Father and God the Son as being actual beings that are tangible while the Holy Spirit is an intangible being. I just think that They all think the same so they are of one mind.

[Woody]

[Stan]

Our God is One God

[Woody]

Amen. They are ONE.

[John317]

My understanding of why Jesus taught us to pray to the Father is that Jesus was acting as our example in both prayer and worship. He was showing that the Son is in subordination to the Father.

That subordination is not in the sense of being inferior to the Father. It has to do with role and function, not with inherent nature. The Son is of the very same nature as the Father. Hebrews 1: 3. Both are fully God. But the Son has voluntarily become identified with the creature for the purpose of representing mankind to God and God to mankind.

If Jesus is a mere created being, how can we trust what He says about God? It would be a question of how well He knew the Father. If, on the other hand, Jesus is actually God, His life and teachings become not just those of a proxy, but of God Himself.

The essential question, then, becomes whether God made a creature for the purpose of dying for humanity, or whether the Creator Himself came and gave His life for humanity.

[Dr. Shane]

Playing off Nan's analogy, I think of Them more as a computer network than a single computer. It is more like They are three separate computers all networked together. One cannot do or think anything without the other knowing.

[John317]

Yes, I think that's a helpful illustration.

I won't speculate on what my JW friends would do with that, but I see light in it.

By the way, the JWs believe that when Jesus was on earth, he was nothing but a man. They believe that Jesus gave up his divine nature before he came here. I find that contrary to so much in the NT.

I wish I could talk to SDA leaders like James White and Joseph Bates and find out what they were thinking. They didn't write or say much on the subject.

[Nan]

It is only an illustration...Sammy has had more cause to use it for Muslims than for JWs - when

I was a lot younger the standard illustration was the 3 strands of a rope twisted into one.

[John317]

I don't imagine it can be easy convincing Muslims to believe that Jesus is Deity, because the Qur'an says that Jesus was nothing but a mere human messenger for Allah. What is the best and most effective way of dealing with that question?

[Stan]

There is only one God..

[Raphael]

Hi,

I like to tell Muslims in a congenial conversation manner that they can do away with Jesus as a God, if they did not believe in Him. Then I further by telling then that what made Jesus important, that there was a need for a life or blood sacrifice that was symbolized by the lamb offerings conducted since the fall of Adam and Eve, and that this offerings in Islam are what they call 'kurban', where they slaughter animals, as well. If there was no Jesus then the situation would revert to the current Israelites who don't accept Jesus and are still waiting for that person to arrive. Going further to expound upon the concept of perfection is very difficult because they were taught that God could do anything, even created imperfect beings - angels only obeying, Genies only disobeying, and humans having both.. from perfection, once grasped, can explain why death was needed and that it was a cleansing execution, much like what janitors would do, and that it was not a revengeful one, meaning God is not ambivalent but an accountable, predictable (in a sense), trustworthy person.

When I have this very human urge to hammer things, at times ( I'm still human) I still stick to logic, where my last effort would be to describe how apparent it is to even the most illiterate to see that in this world, countries of Christian Protestant majority are super excelling and that countries like Japan (Buddhism) and others are just enjoying the already blazed trail done by Christian countries. I go further to explain that Catholics while looking better are far below the protestants which can be clearly seen geographically wise, world wide. This is my last hammer, if one would call it so, and I don't always go this extent. But ofcourse, I always lay the ground rules for the conversation before the dialogue get sort of heated by explaining objectivity versus subjectivity.

Where subjectively a person may define glass as wood or anything because it is oriented to him as a 'subject'. While Objectively would orient towards the 'object' and let it define itself. Sounds simple and easy. But then I choose to give a dramatic illustration to emphasize. 'We can easily be objective on objects like glasses and tables what about if we talk about your love ones, your father or mother or girlfriend.. Can you still face the challenge..? After these ground rules are well set, things will not get dangerous as much as one imagines, afterwards.. Then ofcourse to make you not sound as some clandestine evangelist, after the religious topics go to other subjects of interest with the same conduct.. (The words are used above are not 100% what I use in discourses, its the gist in it that may be expressed in any other intelligent, most user friendly ways. I suppose that is why the Dummy Series Books were so popular, though they were still at often time, not easy to understand..)

It is all in logic, not the hammering in of fear instigating doctrine (though the Holy Spirit works in mysterious ways and still can make use of these less then optimum performances) You are free to pull out one strand of string but the whole house of cards or concept will not stand.. then let them do the thinking.

I use to do this ages ago (seems to me) when I was in Bandung, seat of the second largest Muslim organization of the country, 'Muhamadiyah'.

I believe one may not be able to enjoy the fruits at that moment, even the next day or the very next year. Now, I heard that there are many Christian (not only SDAs) converts in the city which was most unseemingly to all in past days. Without patience, some like to drive the hammer too hard, hoping something might bring, perhaps good reputation and other things to him or her, which is, I believe, is very not God driven.

About two to three years after that, the term or equivalent usage of 'objective speaking' became nation wide and then global... as usual the western worlds have this advantage of learning and grasping things much faster and better than the others. Prior to this, the term or use of this definition was confined only to scientists, researchers and the academic realms.

I don't often converse like those days (those were perhaps my 'identity search' days.. where I was in search of 'everything', open to everything, willing to learn anything 'sensible'..) in the past but when opportunities arise, I do my best and behave as impartial as possible. I could not and would not presume to be more concern upon his or her soul or salvation more than him or herself, that would be very misplaced. Just like professional lawyers providing consultation but will not in any way try to hammer in anything aside logic and let the client do the thinking, realization process, and even anticipate having a disinterested client and moving on to others..

But ofcourse, it is kind of lonely when you are alone and don't get agreeing crowds.. But being the sower was a lonely job, you can imagine, alone in the field, sowing and the grains fell into good, bad, rocky soil.. you know the story..

God bless,

Raphael

[Raphael]

In my exchanges I never quote the Bible or even want to mentioned it at all. I veer away as far as possible from that because if, say, I come up with even a million verses they would simply respond with another hundred million of theirs.. It would be a never ending, clueless, frustrating, unproductive exchange and certainly, a fully waste of time.

It would become like, whose book is has more authority and you know, that will never meet.. That's why I just use logic and sensible exchanges without the lessening of its values.. Truth is supposed to have logical truths in it, that's why it may be called Truth, not simply by claim or 'thus says or saith so..'.

By the way, Happy Sabbath, its already Sabbath here, 10:35 pm, Friday, Jakarta.

Raphael

[John317]

I like to tell Muslims in a congenial conversation manner that they can do away with Jesus as a God, if they did not believe in Him. Then I further by telling then that what made Jesus important, that there was a need for a life or blood sacrifice that was symbolized by the lamb offerings conducted since the fall of Adam and Eve, and that this offerings in Islam are what they call 'kurban', where they slaughter animals, as well.

Do Muslims believe God forgives sin without the shedding of blood?

Quote:

... they were taught that God could do anything, even created imperfect beings - angels only obeying, Genies only disobeying, and humans having both.. from perfection, once grasped, can explain why death was needed and that it was a cleansing execution, much like what janitors would do, and that it was not a revengeful one, meaning God is not ambivalent but an accountable, predictable (in a sense), trustworthy person.

So, then, Muslims are taught that God intentionally creates beings who don't obey Him?

To whom is God accountable?

It is certainly necessary that God be trustworthy, I agree.

I believe Jesus demonstrates for us that God is completely trustworthy.

Quote:

When I have this very human urge to hammer things, at times ( I'm still human) I still stick to logic, where my last effort would be to describe how apparent it is to even the most illiterate to see that in this world, countries of Christian Protestant majority are super excelling and that countries like Japan (Buddhism) and others are just enjoying the already blazed trail done by Christian countries. I go further to explain that Catholics while looking better are far below the protestants which can be clearly seen geographically wise, world wide.

You seem to be arguing here, then, that Protestant Christianity must be true because Protestant countries are more prosperous, is that right?

Quote:

.... I use to do this ages ago (seems to me) when I was in Bandung, seat of the second largest Muslim organization of the country, 'Muhamadiyah'.

I understand Bandung is in Indonesia. Where are you living now-- still in Indonesia? (I just saw that you are in Jakarta.)

Quote:

But ofcourse, it is kind of lonely when you are alone and don't get agreeing crowds.. But being the sower was a lonely job, you can imagine, alone in the field, sowing and the grains fell into good, bad, rocky soil.. you know the story...

Yes, I'm sure being alone that way could sometimes be very lonely.

In Jakarta, are you able to worship on the Sabbath with other Seventh-day Adventists?

I live near Loma Linda, California, and there are many Indonesians in this area.

They have a church not very far away.

[John317]

Quote:

It would become like, whose book is has more authority and you know, that will never meet..

I know that the Qur'an often refers to the Bible and to Jesus.

Do you find very many Muslims who actually have read the Bible before? Are the Muslims you speak to knowledgeable about what the Bible teaches?

They are taught that the Bible has been changed, aren't they?

I have read some verses in the Qur'an that encourage Muslims to study the Bible. The Qur'an says that God gave the way of salvation in the Bible. Do they believe this or do they believe they can't believe the Bible?

[Robert]

Our God is One God

One in thought...One in agape...One in purpose, but yet three in one.

[Raphael]

Salvation to Muslims is something that can be bought or purchased by good deeds including money. In countries adhering strictly to the Muslim code or Syariat, death penalties can be canceled by way of money, though at great amounts. In Islamic Universities here, they teach that being or becoming a Muslim means you are certainly going to heaven.. after doing your time of punishment in hell. That is 100% salvation for all Muslims, great isn't it? So there is no forgiveness, what there is, is something what accountants do, balancing.. and like in prison, doing your time, if you got sentenced..

God to Muslims, is a frightening, distant figure, something like kings of feudal times. That is why, once there is person, acknowledged to be close to Him, he immediately acquires VIP status, only extremely selected can be like these. That is also why when having a discussion about God, it will make them suddenly feel as if, somehow in the presence of, say President Bush or some most powerful figure in the world. How would you feel if you were suddenly in the Oval office having an intimate conversation with the President? Something like that.. Ignore these 'unaccustomed' behavior of theirs and just keep onto the direction of the exchange..

I had a somehow funny experience with an old friend (now one of the national officers of one of the countries main political parties, sorry can't mention). He told me that the concept of democracy only belongs to the west because here (all world wide geographies of the same belief actually).., it is the grass root customs and beliefs (Islam) that exemplifies nepotism, which brings along the cousins of corruption and others. In the history of Islam in Indonesia, it has always been to these moments, that the lineage from the adhered pioneers (they call it Wali Songo or the Nine something) being in high positions of the society (Islam is the major religion here), enjoying, certainly all the benefits from inheritance of assets to power exerting positions. And this has been done throughout the centuries. (5 to 6 centuries, I think, before Dutch colonialism and after Majapahit (Buddhism), Indonesia's greatest empire in history). So the people are accustomed to religious powers (by inheritance) having great sway, even to this moment. Fortunately, due to the previous layers of Buddhism, according to anthropologists, the people are of moderate religious temperance in comparison to its roots in the Middle East.

So to make it in a nutshell, due to the distant figure of God, the human person closest to Him becomes of colossal importance. That is also why, it is common knowledge, where ever or to whom ever a Kyai or prominent Indonesian Muslim figure decide to support (in the case of political parties), all his followers will obediently follow.

This distant figure notion explain the extreme lack of grasp or understanding of their own creator. They look to Him, more as something like a human leader who can do what ever he pleases.. that is also why among them there is nothing fixed, even doctrinally, it can suddenly change simply depending upon the leaders intentions. People may perhaps not understand why terrorism is and was openly condoned at the society level.. I hope you can see the connection now..

To whom God is accountable.. none, not even to himself.. He can change His mind at a whim or something and His creations are just like the possessions of ancient kingdoms.. very disposable, no way of protesting or winding.. I believe you understand the meaning of Islam, which means 'submission'.

About the argument.. that is when I am, what you would equivalently call 'in a fit'. Yes, I imply that Christian all around the world are visibly more blessed, which is most apparent upon prosperities. I would sometimes say that even in a Muslim majority country, minority Christian would still fare better.. which I don't go further, making sure before hand that the person I am having this exchange, is broadly knowledgeable to already be aware of this facts. But ofcourse, I've laid out the ground rules as well as possible, even with its 'preliminary exercises'.

I spent some of my junior & High School years in Bandung. I was working in Singapore as deputy chief editor of a finance and lifestyle magazine but it went broke, funny indeed, so I am back in Jakarta, doing some sideline projects of magazine too, for priority banking of several banks and credit companies. A funder who knew first hand on my works and how I did things is interested in starting over and having me fully in charge, back in Singapore.. please pray that this may happen and be blessed.

Loneliness.. the question.. that's a personal question.. perhaps I should skip that.. alright?

Yes, I am free to worship at church. I like to change churches often times, so that I won't get bored, but I try to maintain good relations with all, especially the young people...

Wish me luck and pray for me.

God bless,

Raphael

[Raphael]

Muslims who are knowledgeable of their own holy book are very scant in contrast to the Muslim population itself. But as I said even with their knowledge of the Quran, nothing is fixed. It will go back to interpretations and who has the power to enforce these interpretations. During the Soharto government, an official government acknowledged interpretation of the Quran was released and was stated as the proper and right book of Islam reference. It was called buku kuning or the yellow book. I am not very familiar with the details of differences between aspiring interpretations but I am sure it was the governments purpose to avoid problems from the Muslim world. The greatest trial to the Indonesian government that took many years to dissolve in guerrilla and military warfare was the 'ratu adil' Muslim uprising in West Java, not to mentioned numerous incidents with Muslim radicals in history. So, above all else, the government and especially its military are most wary of this and that is why the military, back then, was given special roles in Indonesia to maintain stability of the country.

Muslims are commonly taught here that anything can be pardoned except the sin of leaving Islam or converting to another religion. therefore, just trying to know more about Christianity would be considered a super outrageous and unspeakable sin, with exceptions. The exceptions are, if you are very rich, it applies to the Muslim moderate class only,not to the extremes (minority but majority in being most vocal..). Being rich in Islam means being close to God.. the riches are proof of your blessedness, therefore closeness..

There are many verses in the Quran that may be used to enlightened Christian truth, but this are only for the very few, really studious ones who usually studies abroad in Egypt or else where. I am speaking of the common multitudes, the majority who simply are following along and are, you could say 'in greatest hunger for the truth' and without the courage for it.

It would be like doing double to triple tasks of first getting them to know their own beliefs then finding comparison beyond (which is very discouraged and deterred) and learning the truths between what they have learned. That would be very frustratingly exhausting and daunting to any.

And then the worst part is when presented with verses, either from the Quran or the Bible, they, commonly would go back to their Kyai or something and let them do the talking. If you get to convert a Kyai or Muslim religious leader, that would be something because his words are revered by his following multitude.

The upbringing of a common Islam weakens the individual. Because they were brought with no principles, just simply how to slip through things such as not being denounced or condemned by the public, simply by elementary matters like 'not looking one of them (in 'superficial' appearances & etc). When they are adults (commonly) they are very weak in resolutions and are basically unable to stand alone, and would need constant assistance.. (if converted). Ofcourse this would not apply to individually unique cases where many were instead 'spiritually' called upon. These kinds have their own first hand miracle experiences to count on.

It is kind of frightening to think of.. to be brought up somehow reduced.. and helpless..

So the best is to simply sow and sow with casualty, without apparent intention and let time garner itself. You never would know which seed that you sowed would bear fruit, I believe we are taught not to dwell on that because every one has a role and phase in the 'progress'. Christ, the greatest, as a human, while living on earth had never brought about a convert..

God bless,

Raphael

[John317]

...And then the worst part is when presented with verses, either from the Quran or the Bible, they, commonly would go back to their Kyai or something and let them do the talking. If you get to convert a Kyai or Muslim religious leader, that would be something because his words are revered by his following multitude.....

My wife and I have been close friends with a Muslim family from Afghanistan for many years, but when I've asked them questions about the Qur'an, they always just refer me to a Muslim religious leader. I'm sure he is what you call a Kyai. Our friends tell us that they don't know enough to talk about Islam.

Based on what you say, it sounds like Muslims would accept the explanation of a Kyai, even if his explanation doesn't agree with the plain words of the Qur'an.

I'm interested especially in the Muslim beliefs regarding what happens when a person dies. I understand there are different beliefs in Islam on this subject, but I know that most Muslims believe the soul or spirit survives the death of the body.

I study the Qur'an from many different translations, but my favorite is one that is done by Maulana Muhammad Ali; it's accompanied by a very good, thorough commentary. I'm not sure if he was Sunni or Shiite.

It seems strange to me that the Muslims believe the Bible predicted the coming of Muhammad. They believe that Muhammed is the Comforter that Jesus said would come, but of course Jesus was talking about the Holy Spirit, not Muhammed.

[Raphael]

Its all a mixture of sorts, all strewed into one (the Quran). Very confusing, that is why I just try to hone the logic approach of the story of salvation scheme. If I would try to arrive from their perspectives, I think I would lose my head (just a figure of speech).

There was this real story of the first SDA church in Indonesia.. or was it in Java.. not really sure but it was really early in those days were one could perhaps count SDAs with their fingers. The location of this church is (still there) at East Java, Prigen, at the very foot of Mt Arjuna, Javanese mystically lore held mountain. It is a very wonderful place, I've even climbed the mountain five times. According to the story, a whole village was converted there to SDAs and for many years remain steadfast but after their pioneer minister passed away, the whole village backslided with just a remaining very few that still goes to church to this day. They were all Muslim Javanese.

I have an uncle here who has founded many churches in South Sumatra, Lampung among the Javanes 'transmigrants'. The government relocates people from heavily populated areas like in Java who happened to have calamities like severe drought and others, to sparsely populated locations like in Sumatra. I told him of the Prigen Church story and to be wary if that same thing happened among his SDA churches in Lampung. He uses free medication as his priority tool to penetrate them and it was very successful. He has been invited by the GC for this as well. I said that if the succeeding minister does not know how to maintain, the fate of that Prigen Church may most likely happen there. He assured me that he would try his best to avoid such events from happening. I do wish him success, ofcourse.

Speaking of the Quran, there is indeed one book in it that contains many verses of controversy among Muslims. Can't really remember the name, sounded like bokorah or something like that. The verses states support for the Sabbath, that Jesus will return as a Judge and some others.. But as I mentioned earlier, these may only be of 'conversation material' for the very few scholarly (religion) Muslim. One would be very disappointed to find the thriving multitudes to be unable to even grasp whatever you would be talking about.

About what happens to someone who dies.. well, just like Catholics, you can pray for the spirit of the deceased and even comfort them, perhaps by releasing them from some kind of hell (sort of witchcraft required, the Muslim crafts). They even (for the 'Master of ArtCrafts') convert spiritual beings into Muslims, you know the genies and sorts.. They are very deep into these 'crafts'. The story of Salman Rushdie is an irony, indeed. But there are certain tribes that (generally) somehow don't go into those things, not because it is disallowed (nothing's fixed) but simply because it was not the 'trend', such as the Muslim Padang tribe who are trade or commerce minded and are considered the Chinese version of Indonesia. But when it comes to the prominent figures either locally or nationally or even internationally, they are always laden with this 'magical capabilities'. There is saying here among Muslims, that if one is very religious and is very faithful in his daily five time prayers.. usually that individual without requesting will get or be granted some kind of magical ability. I have heard this testimonies not from one Muslim individual but from many, from various backgrounds and locations, here. One can imagine if it was purposely done, which becomes the forte of leading figures..

The other funny thing is when one delves into this crafts, religious boundaries disappear and what matters is the ability to win either in fight (from magical dimensions to physical) or get what one wants. The friend of mine I mentioned earlier who is a politician said that during elections are the worst, in these magical attacks from one to another.. from hiring of the supposed powerful 'magician' to equipping oneself with the best or strongest magical power obtainable by purchase or self search (rare).

According to a story, their prophet died because of a magical arrow of the Pharaoh of Egypt, meaning their prophet could die from magic what else anyone?

Christians who take for granted upon this matters are often never aware that they have been somehow influenced to certain degrees, even physical hurt but ofcouse if you have done nothing wrong what cause can people find to harm. EGW was 'allowed' to be physically hurt by this spiritual attacks.. the story where she was intended to be killed in the front of her house or was that at her doorstep. But ofcourse there is nothing to be alarmed about.. its more simply about the saying that 'the devil you know is better than the devil you don't know', which is said to be more for apprehensive or neurotic people and ofcourse undying faith is what will bring the travelers through their perilous winding journeys, no matter what.

Best,

Raphael

[Raphael]

In other words the situation here (and I believe in other likewise regions, worldwide) is suppressed, people are not free to be themselves and are constantly looking over their shoulders or to others.. giving rise to incredible magnitudes of hypocrisy. I read westerner have a hard time with their intimate affairs with the local women.. where they were accustomed to free, respectful, mutual, independent sexual relations, here, there is always a string attached, mostly upon economy objectives..

I also read somewhere that homo sexuality is rampant ('though beyond or under the radar line') due to the suppressiveness of the situation.. (Something like jail or prison stories..) Is it because of forms sexual repression that people turn to these distressing solutions? or perhaps due to lack of sexual orientation education during childhood? From many accounts that I've heard.. Japan is the most liberal country on (heterogenic) sexual relations and perhaps most liberated as 'country population wise' from homosexuality (pls correct me if I'm wrong). Is it because of their grass root customs of bathing together as a family? Until certain ages, it is their custom to bathe together, father, mother & children. I have a Japanese lady acquaintance here who got married with a Javanese and told me how her husband's boy, being unaccustomed to this 'bathing rituals' "pulled her 'parts'" thinking it was a playful thing to do, and she was like 'oh, that was 'so painful'.. haha. Perhaps there are things that can be learned from over the fence? What do you think?

Happy Sabbath,

Raphael

[Raphael]

This Japanese friend also told me that back in Japan, husbands are free or 'very' allowed to have (spouse knowledgeable) extra marital affairs and even have these 'other ladies' be introduced to their official spouses during events like some gatherings or parties. The rule is 'as long as it is only for biological needs and without the 'heart' it is perfectly alright with the spouses.' Perhaps these practices are too extreme for the moral idealists but the point is, homosexuality is 'significantly eradicated.' (Japanese wives are also depressed and embarrassed if their husbands come home early, taking it as a sign that he is somewhat 'unused' in office, making many husbands loiter around, like drinking sake (liqour) with buddies & etc, to then come home late..) What do you think upon the idea of battling the (only) thing that made God Himself spring allergically out of His throne and casted stones of fire to 'them.' (Sodom & Gomorrah) Perhaps you have other enlightening ideas to share, brethren..?

Happy Sabbath,

Raphael

[melvin mccarty]

I'm really curious what Stan was after when he started this thread. Could we persuade him to open up a bit?...mel

[melvin mccarty]

No luck huh?...mel