Burned out on religion?

[Stan]

Just read an interesting blog, about a Church that sought out those 'burned out on religion'...

What would be the signs you would watch for on that?

[Amelia]

Falling asleep during the service.

[Gail]

Quote:

What would be the signs you would watch for on that?

What... signs of burnout, or signs of others out looking for burnouts?

For some reason I'm picturing vultures ready to finish off what the predators destroyed, but I'm sure that isn't it in this case.

[Gail]

Signs of religion burnout:

Like any burnout, being overwhelmed. When something becomes a burden and a stress instead of a joy, something is not right.

[Liz]

How about coming unprepared to do whatever their job happens to be, yet, getting angry when others tries to step up and fill their lack?

How about you notice that someone tries to take on more and more and yet, getting less and less done?

They stop coming to church altogether.

They start questioning SDA doctrine.

They start murmuring about the pastor or other church members, in the hopes that they find some juicy tidbit, they can then hold against the pastor or church member and thus justifying why they no longer attend church.

These are my thoughts off the top of my head.

[Woody]

You sound like you have witnessed some of this Liz.

One thing I don't like to hear is criticism of the sermon that was delivered.

[Gail]

One thing I don't like to hear is criticism of the sermon that was delivered.

You mean chewing up the sermon for lunch?

[Woody]

Yes ... Bad cuisine.

[Lineman]

One thing I don't like to hear is criticism of the sermon that was delivered.

Ok, now you hit a nerve.

A couple of weeks ago our pastor told the whole church (during his communion sermon) that when he came to our church we needed him. That may not seem so bad, but he went on and on about it. He keeps telling us stuff like that, running down people in front of the whole congregation, etc. One Sabbath some time ago he even was talking about someone's "butt crack" during his sermon. It's embarrising to bring anyone to church.

I'm sorry if you don't like to hear criticsm like this, but it is getting sickening to many of the people in this church, even the other elders. This man has such an ego and it seems to be hurting our whole church, but the local conference cannot see it because he acts different when they are here. How do you deal with this kind of thing?

I used to be an elder in this church and felt it was my job to try and do something about this kind of stuff and so approached an evangelist who was here one Sabbath with some of the things the pastor had just said that day and was told that I should maybe go to a different church if I did not like our pastor.

I am not going to go to a non-SDA church and there isn't another SDA church in this town. Because our current pastor is the Lord's annointed and I do not want to get in his way and cause him more problems, I have chosen to go to Sabbath School, but usually just stay away from church if he is preaching.

I miss going to church, but if I am causing problems for my pastor I need to stay away. If I am there and he keeps saying stuff that hurts someone I'm going to say something. (I'm not real shy.) He has even asked me if I was a problem for other pastors where I had lived before. (The answer to that was/is a big "NO".)

I even resigned as an elder because he kept "hitting" me with the fact that I was "working on the Sabbath" and was an elder, even though I am working at a local hospital doing what I would be willing to volunteer for on Sabbath. (I have agonized over this Sabbath issue for a long time and have come to the conclusion that I am doing exactly what God wants me to be doing.)

Where do you draw the line? What do you do? I want to go to church tomorrow, but I am afraid to. (I'm not afraid of him, just what I might say or do.)

[LynnDel]

I guess I don't understand why you would be afraid of what you might say or do. If you can determine that you will stay away, you can also determine ahead of time that you will go, and be in control of what you will do or not do, or say or not say. With God's help, of course! If you feel words or actions bursting forth that you know you will regret in a calmer moment, take yourself out of the room by the nape of your neck and have a good talk with yourself. With prayer, of course!

But I take it you're not a phlegmatic sort of person, so such an approach may not work for you.

[He is risen!]

The first question I would ask is if you went to the conference alone about the issue or were there several of you. If enough of the church membership calls the conference something will get done.If only one calls a pastor can play them off as a troublemaker. If the pastor is putting on an act when the conference is there tell them. I do believe we should show respect to our pastors after all they are the shepherds of God's flock. Unfortunately it seems more and more in all branches of Christianity there are unconverted shepherds in places. This will only continue to get worse as we get nearer the end of time.

Just don't let this experience make you bitter. Make sure your words and actions come from a genuine concern for the pastor and not just out of a selfishly motivated anger. Remember that Christ died for that pastor just as surely as He died for you or me. Our goal should be to restore him in meekness as Paul says. If he refuses to be "restored" then other measures may be needed. We just have to be very careful that our own motives and attitude come from true concern and not just from wanting to call down fire as the apostle John wanted early on. I have found it helpful when dealing with situations where it seems the world is ruling peoples hearts instead of God, to remember what is actually going on. Remember that this whole world is the stage of a great controversy. We aren't fighting against pastor so and so or sister so and so. The fight is God vs satan. There will come a time when the unconverted will be shaken out. Until then there will be unsavory things from time to time. By all means I would encourage you to keep attending church. From personal experience, if you only attend church sporadically you will drift away from God. I can completely understand your reasons for not wanting to attend, I have been there myself. We drive 30 miles to our church when there are several within about 20 miles and one only two miles from our house. I have had friends who drove for two hours or more to attend church. I have also found that if one IS stuck in a church they are having a hard time with and there just isn't any other option. Just pray and ask the Lord to change YOUR heart. Ask Him to help you reflect Him to your church, to help you be a light to the pastor and to other church members.

[Lineman]

Thanks for your comments, both of you.

LynnDel, I am not a phlegmatic person, no. The problems come so often and yet the only things I have said personally were either to an elder, directly to the pastor, in Elder's Meetings or as I said, directly to the evangelist. (I don't see myself as being a negitive person either, but if I am talking about this pastor it always comes to that.)

All the elders of this church had several meetings with the pastor addressing this issue. Later we had one without the pastor and decided to contact the conference office and even sent a video to them. The pastor apoligized for that one incident, but they keep happening.

Of course I have talked with my wife whom I respect above all others. Her take on this whole matter is that he seems to act like a "used car sales man". He has "no people skills". She is the principle/teacher of the church school and he has caused lots of problems for her as well. She goes to church but tells me that she just does not listen to the sermon. I cannot do that, I am there to feed on what is being said and so maybe that is part of the problem. She thinks I should be going to church, and as I have said, I want to. I just am not able to sit there and listen to what I see as him slamming people every Sabbath without me getting upset.

I was in only one of his evangelistic meetings (one was all I could stand) and during that meeting he asked the people a direct question and before anyone could answer he reworded the question so that when a person did answer the first question he literly laughed at them for giving the wrong answer (actually the right answer to the first question, wrong when reworded).

We have an elder who is in a wheel chair and I talked with him one Sabbath. He told me that there have been times that he wants to wheel down to the front, during the sermon, and tell the poeple that what the pastor had said was "just not true".

It is sad, but several of our elders are praying that this pastor will just move on, but there is at least one who really does not want to see that happen because we were without a pastor for so long before.

I sometimes feel like he should not be a pastor at all. I think he loves the Lord and as one of you mentioned, Jesus did die for him too. He is very energetic, going all the time (even hyper it seems) and I think that may be part of the problem.

It all boils down to this (in my head anyway):

1) I can go and pretend I don't care. (Not an option really.)

2) I can go and talk with the pastor about things I see/hear each Sabbath. (Not an option as I have told him that I am going to stay out of his way.)

3) I can stay away from church, but go to Sabbath School. (What I am doing right now, but I feel like I am being a hyprocrit.)

4) I can drive to another SDA church and ignor what is going on in my own church. (That seems to be the best option, but both my wife and I have duties here right now.)

With either of the last two options I feel like I am burying my head in the sand and not trying to help my church as a whole.

I have prayed about this, but still not sure what to do. I hate being so negitive about this. I want to help my church. This is where the school kids go (most of them) and I am part of the teaching staff, which makes this even worse. I do not hate the pastor, nor do I even dislike him. I just don't think he should be a pastor, anywhere. In my opinion, he is bring dishonor on our Lord much of the time.

I have felt that maybe this is a personality conflict between him and myself and so that is one of the reasons I have chosen to stay out of his way.

He is risen!, I am not bitter towards the church at all. I have a genuine concern for the church as a whole, but I am concerned about my own attitude towards the pastor. Like I said, I don't hate him, don't even dislike him, but I am angry with what he is doing to our church and even the people who come to his Revelation Seminars. That makes it hard to love him I guess.

???

[Robert]

They start questioning SDA doctrine.

And? So what....The last time I checked SDA weren't infallible.

Maybe this mentality that SDA know it all gets folks burnt out.

[Stan]

IMHO

Burn out happens when we let others define our Christian Experience..

We all need to taste of that land of milk and honey for ourselves.

The "BORN AGAIN" experience seems to be passé, and we reap the reward of that..

That reward really is not a nice one.

[Robert]

One thing I don't like to hear is criticism of the sermon that was delivered.

Huh? That's the main reason my butt is at home and not in the local SDA church. I had to criticize that nonsense. It was BS! It was legalism.... And so I fought it tooth and nail, but the legalists prevailed because there were too many of them. But that's okay, the bottom fell out later and the church split.

Anytime someone preaches "another gospel" (see Gal 1:6) it's time for criticism....It's time to take a critical look at what he or she is teaching.

Rob

[Lineman]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

One thing I don't like to hear is criticism of the sermon that was delivered.

Anytime someone preaches "another gospel" (see Gal 1:6) it's time for criticism....It's time to take a critical look at what he or she is teaching.

Rob brings up an interesting question. If you feel that what is being done or said is not Christ centered are we to be critical of it, or are we to work around it? Or is there another way?

I don't think it is good to be so public as to cause anyone to look "devilish" or evil because what happened may be due to someone just not understanding God and His love.

I have felt, in a way, that what I see happening in my own church is kind of like the David and King Saul story. King Saul was the Lord's anointed, so was David. But David tried to stay out of Saul's way and not disrupt his postition. Are we to do that same kind of thing when we encounter problems in the church?

I hope I am not causing a problem here by saying what I did above. I don't think that we can bury our heads in the sand and hope that the problem goes away, but I am not so sure we should be publically "critical" of those who do these things either. Jesus did not condemn the lady caught in adultry, but what she was doing was not a public thing.

How do you deal with un-Christ like things that are hurting God's people?

[Robert]

Jesus did not condemn the lady caught in adultery...

True. "The sinners" flocked to Jesus, while the self-righteous constantly were trying to find fault with Him.

The question is, was Jesus ever outwardly critical of those perverting His message? Yes! Just read Matthew chapter 23 for starters.

ROb

[cricket]

For me, burn out happens when I continue to "do" but others stop caring all together. For me, it happens when the effort is no longer worth it.

I understand what Stan is saying about "letting others define our Christian experience." The only problem I have with that definition, however, is that sometimes the "other" is God Himself.

[Robert]

For me, it happens when the effort is no longer worth it.

And that's why you need a Savior for Jesus never became tired of living for others. His whole life was one of self-sacrificing love - His whole life was one of self-denial. He never lived for Himself. Never! Everything He did was motivated from "agape" love - everything. That's why He called Himself "the servant of all".

[He is risen!]

Quote:

1Ti 5:19 Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.

1Ti 5:20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.

1Ti 5:21 I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Maybe it is time for this type of action. If the elders are together on this and call the conference and they are all in accord that the pastor has to go, the conference will remove him. The conference will of course try to mediate but if the elders are insistent the pastor will be removed.

[LynnDel]

As to the original question, whether burned out on religion -- I think most of us get burned out on "religion," as we humans tend to practice it. Remember the book, How to be a Christian Without Being Religious? If I remember correctly, it talked against the forms of religion overshadowing real connection with Christ and acceptance of His saving grace.

I have, not too long ago, been in the almost exact situation Lineman describes, and it is a disheartening experience. You learn not to say what you know needs to be said, because you get branded as a troublemaker. You are left with your hands tied, knowing that your local church is being hurt.

Part of the problem is that the conference has few options, few alternatives for replacing the pastor. There are just not that many pastors available, and not that much money for salaries. Some conferences have built into their budget a planned percentage of churches waiting for a pastor. We went 18 months without a pastor after having experienced two disasters sent by the conference, with the church earning a reputation in the conference for being pastor-eaters (not so; the pastors came with severe problems in their past, problems that continued), and I can tell you that we were better off before the third pastor of this series arrived. Now with another new pastor (4th in 8 years) whom we appreciate greatly, our church, nearly full in attendance eight years ago, is lucky if 25 attend. (I keep calling this church my church, even though I am no longer a member there.)

I didn't realize until my husband died how lonely church can be. The current set-up of most SDA churches do not foster more than a Sabbath hug with many whose names you can't quite remember. Sabbath School is mostly lecture, worship is an individual affair in one's own pew, potlucks are noisy and the food sometimes scary. If you have been led, through devastating church problems, to attend a church more distant than the closest one, the miles make it difficult to socialize with other members and to attend church socials. Social activities involve those who have been involved for years; new members have to make their own way.

But I digress. As to whether I am burned out on religion, it depends on how you define religion. But I feel I am burned out on church and churchiness. The thing that keeps me in connection with fellow believers is the weekly Bible study of six to fifteen persons who meet at my house. We have no leader but Christ, and I organize by emailing. The group is warm, loving, and forgiving, the way church should be.

[He is risen!]

It is great to know that God is in charge though isn't it?

Quote:

There is no need to doubt, to be fearful that the work will not succeed. God is at the head of the work, and He will set everything in order. If matters need adjusting at the head of the work God will attend to that, and work to right every wrong. Let us have faith that God is going to carry the noble ship which bears the people of God safely into port.--2SM 390 (1892). {LDE 52.1}

Has God no living church? He has a church, but it is the church militant, not the church triumphant. We are sorry that there are defective members, that there are tares amid the wheat. . . . Although there are evils existing in the church, and will be until the end of the world, the church in these last days is to be the light of the world that is polluted and demoralized by sin. The church, enfeebled and defective, needing to be reproved, warned, and counseled, is the only object upon earth upon which Christ bestows His supreme regard.--TM 45, 49 (1893). {LDE 52.2}

The bulwarks of Satan will never triumph. Victory will attend the third angel's message. As the Captain of the Lord's host tore down the walls of Jericho, so will the Lord's commandment-keeping people triumph, and all opposing elements be defeated.--TM 410 (1898). {LDE 52.3}

I believe the key is to make sure OUR heart is right with God and try to share that with others. Become part of the solution not the problem. I have been involved in separatist movements which seemed to start out harmlessly enough. Getting together to study the Word with only God as a guide. Soon they seem to move to an anti church movement and eventually downright enmity against the church. And a complete severance of any ties to the church. It is sad for me to see people who I have been friends with all my life who are still involved in movements like the "historic SDA" movement now moving off the foundation of present truth and embracing arianism and other false doctrines. If find that once one starts criticizing the church or leaders in the church it can easily snowball into a life of enmity and hatred of the "apostates" in the church. If we persist in this God eventually gives us up to believe a lie and then we see false doctrines start to take the place of Biblical doctrine in our lives. Are there defective elements in the church? Of course. But I would ask, who is in charge God or satan? Victory will attend the third angels message, Praise the Lord! Are we to go to church for what we get out of it or to worship the Lord and give Him praise?

[Lineman]

As to the original question, whether burned out on religion -- I think most of us get burned out on "religion," as we humans tend to practice it. Remember the book, How to be a Christian Without Being Religious? If I remember correctly, it talked against the forms of religion overshadowing real connection with Christ and acceptance of His saving grace.

I have, not too long ago, been in the almost exact situation Lineman describes, and it is a disheartening experience. You learn not to say what you know needs to be said, because you get branded as a troublemaker. You are left with your hands tied, knowing that your local church is being hurt.

Part of the problem is that the conference has few options, few alternatives for replacing the pastor. There are just not that many pastors available, and not that much money for salaries. Some conferences have built into their budget a planned percentage of churches waiting for a pastor. We went 18 months without a pastor after having experienced two disasters sent by the conference, with the church earning a reputation in the conference for being pastor-eaters (not so; the pastors came with severe problems in their past, problems that continued), and I can tell you that we were better off before the third pastor of this series arrived. Now with another new pastor (4th in 8 years) whom we appreciate greatly, our church, nearly full in attendance eight years ago, is lucky if 25 attend. (I keep calling this church my church, even though I am no longer a member there.)

I didn't realize until my husband died how lonely church can be. The current set-up of most SDA churches do not foster more than a Sabbath hug with many whose names you can't quite remember. Sabbath School is mostly lecture, worship is an individual affair in one's own pew, potlucks are noisy and the food sometimes scary. If you have been led, through devastating church problems, to attend a church more distant than the closest one, the miles make it difficult to socialize with other members and to attend church socials. Social activities involve those who have been involved for years; new members have to make their own way.

But I digress. As to whether I am burned out on religion, it depends on how you define religion. But I feel I am burned out on church and churchiness. The thing that keeps me in connection with fellow believers is the weekly Bible study of six to fifteen persons who meet at my house. We have no leader but Christ, and I organize by emailing. The group is warm, loving, and forgiving, the way church should be.

[Lineman]

It is great to know that God is in charge though isn't it?

Quote:

There is no need to doubt, to be fearful that the work will not succeed. God is at the head of the work, and He will set everything in order. If matters need adjusting at the head of the work God will attend to that, and work to right every wrong. Let us have faith that God is going to carry the noble ship which bears the people of God safely into port.--2SM 390 (1892). {LDE 52.1}

Has God no living church? He has a church, but it is the church militant, not the church triumphant. We are sorry that there are defective members, that there are tares amid the wheat. . . . Although there are evils existing in the church, and will be until the end of the world, the church in these last days is to be the light of the world that is polluted and demoralized by sin. The church, enfeebled and defective, needing to be reproved, warned, and counseled, is the only object upon earth upon which Christ bestows His supreme regard.--TM 45, 49 (1893). {LDE 52.2}

The bulwarks of Satan will never triumph. Victory will attend the third angel's message. As the Captain of the Lord's host tore down the walls of Jericho, so will the Lord's commandment-keeping people triumph, and all opposing elements be defeated.--TM 410 (1898). {LDE 52.3}

Just wanted to say thanks, this is exactly what I needed to be reminded of. Jesus is incharge and He will fix what needs to be fixed. Awesome to realize that He knows what is happening, knows how to fix it and actually cares.

This has been a long, long road. I am so happy for these quotes. I will be in church next week with my eyes on HIM.

Thanks!,

Dan

[GreatLakesGramma]

Lineman, maybe your church needs to record every sermon & send it to the conference. If they finally realize that it's an ongoing problem, not just a few isolated incidents, they might finally do something about it.