Sanctification, Justification, Glorification or Mummification...

[Stan]

Either one is abiding in Christ or not.. We need to be converted everyday...

Not sure why we need to get deeper than that...

[Gerr]

We have to get deeper than that because some claim that abiding in Christ just means believing in Him and yet can continue to willfully live in sin.

[Robert]

While a true believer does grow, there is still self-love and self-seeking in his/her life. Isn't this willful sin?

I mean Ellen White said that there should be less self-seeking in the life of the believer. The fact is less sin still makes you a sinner. Less is good, but less isn't the same as none.

[Woody]

While a true believer does grow, there is still self-love and self-seeking in his/her life. Isn't this willful sin?

I mean Ellen White said that there should be less self-seeking in the life of the believer. The fact is less sin still makes you a sinner. Less is good, but less isn't the same as none.

[FreeThinker]

Well, if it's my own will that makes me sin, why not just have it surgically removed? Then, I would either not sin, or not sin willfully, right?

Just a thought, or maybe not?

[Woody]

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Robert

While a true believer does grow, there is still self-love and self-seeking in his/her life. Isn't this willful sin?

I mean Ellen White said that there should be less self-seeking in the life of the believer. The fact is less sin still makes you a sinner. Less is good, but less isn't the same as none.

Good Post Robert.

Yes. All of our sins are willful.

Why? Because ... we have all the power of Heaven at our disposal to not sin. We make the willful choice to not accept that power ...

Quote:

" When the Father gave His Son to live and die for man, He placed all the treasures of heaven at our disposal. There is no excuse for sin. God has given us all the advantages He possibly could give, that we may have strength to withstand the temptations of the enemy." TDG 318

Folks ... there is NO reason to sin.

If you sin ... that is your decision. But it is WILLFUL. We all fail. We make the wrong decisions. And that is why Christ died for us.

Accept His sacrifice for YOU.

Lucifer had no reason to sin. He sinned willfully. He was kicked out of heaven and will burn in hell. Will God be partial to you just because you claim to accept His sacrifice for you? And yet continue to willfully sin?

"NOT everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." Mt. 7:21 ESV.

As the song says: Trust AND obey, for there's no other way, to be happy in Jesus, but to trust and obey.

You keep ignoring very plain words of Scripture: [color:red]"Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that HE APPEARED TO TAKE AWAY SINS, and in Him there is no sin. NO ONE who abides in Him keeps on sinning; NO ONE WHO KEEPS ON SINNING HAS EITHER SEEN HIM OR KNOWN HIM." 1 Jn 3:4-6 ESV

Gerry

[Gerr]

Either one is abiding in Christ or not.. We need to be converted everyday...

Not sure why we need to get deeper than that...

As you can see, it's not as simple as that. Conversion to some means living the same old life, with perhaps a little growth thrown in.

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

You keep ignoring very plain words of Scripture: "Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that HE APPEARED TO TAKE AWAY SINS, and in Him there is no sin. NO ONE who abides in Him keeps on sinning; NO ONE WHO KEEPS ON SINNING HAS EITHER SEEN HIM OR KNOWN HIM." 1 Jn 3:4-6 ESV

No I am not ignoring the plain words of Scripture. I uphold them. I practice 'lawlessness' yes. As do you.

Christ came to take away sins. And He does. In my life and in yours.

In HIM ALONE there is NO sin.

If I am abiding in Him as I should .... I will not keep on sinning. But ... I don't abide in Him as I should. Thus when I sin ... I repent and HE forgives.

When I am sinning .... I am not abiding in Him as I should. that is clear.

When I sin .... I am not 'knowing' Him as I should.

I think I've covered all of that verse. Is there anything I missed?

[Gerr]

Quote:

You keep ignoring very plain words of Scripture: "Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that HE APPEARED TO TAKE AWAY SINS, and in Him there is no sin. NO ONE who abides in Him keeps on sinning; NO ONE WHO KEEPS ON SINNING HAS EITHER SEEN HIM OR KNOWN HIM." 1 Jn 3:4-6 ESV

No I am not ignoring the plain words of Scripture. I uphold them. I practice 'lawlessness' yes. As do you.

Christ came to take away sins. And He does. In my life and in yours.

In HIM ALONE there is NO sin.

If I am abiding in Him as I should .... I will not keep on sinning. But ... I don't abide in Him as I should. Thus when I sin ... I repent and HE forgives.

When I am sinning .... I am not abiding in Him as I should. that is clear.

When I sin .... I am not 'knowing' Him as I should.

I think I've covered all of that verse. Is there anything I missed?

From what I have read of your other posts, I don't believe for one moment that you are actually plotting to murder, fornicate, or cheat anyone. I believe that your dilemma is in not being able to distinguish the difference between what is deliberate/intentional/willful sinning which is rebellion, from inadvertent/unplanned sins which we all do. I had the same dilemma before I discovered this truth. I had to either ignore these passages of Scripture or think that they were not true. But God cannot lie. That God is able to give victory to those who abide in Him is part of the Good News that some are choosing to ignore.

If, as you claim, I am willfully sinning, i.e. still in rebellion against God, then I have no right to claim heaven, for if God were to admit me there with the same rebellious attitude/behavior, I would only contaminating what is pure and clean.

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

then I have no right to claim heaven, for if God were to admit me there with the same rebellious attitude/behavior, I would only contaminating what is pure and clean.

Oh no. You are worthy. You are worthy. Not because of your works ... but because HE is worthy. That is the only thing that makes you worthy.

And no ... you would not be contaminating Heaven with your sins. You would be joining the club. Because... the rest of us sin also. And we are going to heaven.

We will be perfect because we will wear HIS Robe of Righteousness. AND ... When we SEE HIS FACE ... we will be changed. Those who He lets go to Heaven ... He will change at the Second Coming. Praise God.

[Raphael]

It seems that there is great apprehension (which is rather groundless) upon the risk of lowering the (moral) 'standards' if people are allowed to freely admit and proclaim being in sin. Actually for our highly developed and educated world today (especially, there in 'your west', cause I'm here in the 'east'), discernment wouldn't be a problem as long as people admit what's right is right, regardless of personal (moral) conditions.

One could equate it to economics where poverty or its likes (and its admittances) would not lessen the desire to overcome it and achieve prosperity (the righteousness version of economics).. What would remain is how to assist people (who are clearly interested though not always openly confessing) arrive at this 'paradise'.

Can the waters of the world compete with that of the Bible in quenching ones thirst? .. don't have to attack (directly) their drinking habits..

Suggestive thoughts,

Raphael

[Bravus]

I would just love to shadow, for a day or a week, one of the brethren here who claim that they have ceased to sin.

[Gerr]

Hmmmmmmmm. I wonder who that could be. I reviewed the posts and find no one claiming sinlessness. Every believer has, within his reach, by the grace of God, to cease from a life of rebellion. That is God's promise. Absolute sinlessness is NOT possible in this life.

Gerry

[Bravus]

But isn't it being claimed that that is the standard for translation? Seems like it to me.

[Robert]

Lucifer had no reason to sin. He sinned willfully.

[Gerr]

But isn't it being claimed that that is the standard for translation? Seems like it to me.

Bravus, I seemed to have missed the post where someone had claimed absolute sinless perfection as the standard for translation. If so, I won't be one of them. I do believe that all who would be alive when Jesus comes will have reached the point where they are so totally committed that nothing can move or cause them to disown Christ, and that all vestiges of rebellion will have been rooted out of their lives.

Gerry

[Bravus]

You might want to read the longish discussion of perfection in the Town Hall forum. I could be just misreading, it's entirely possible, but it seems to me that Sulla and John317 are saying there that our characters must be perfect because Jesus stops mediating during the Time of Trouble.

[John317]

No one as far as I know-- including Ellen White-- teaches that any human will have an absolutely perfect character. Only God Himself is absolutely perfect.

We will continue to have sinful natures. But after probation ends, those who will be translated won't commit deliberate, known sins. To that extent, their characters will be sinless, because they will not choose to sin. Through the Holy Spirit, believers may be empowered to resist every temptation to commit sin.

Quote:

The tempter's agency is not to be accounted an excuse for one wrong act. Satan is jubilant when he hears the professed followers of Christ making excuses for their deformity of character. It is these excuses that lead to sin. There is no excuse for sinning. A holy temper, a Christlike life, is accessible to every repenting, believing child of God. The Desire of Ages (1898), page 311, paragraph 3

Christ came to this earth and lived a life of perfect obedience, that men and women, through his grace, might also live lives of perfect obedience. This is necessary to their salvation. Without holiness no man shall see the Lord.The Review and Herald, March 15, 1906, paragraph 8

The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. MH 180

Through the plan of redemption, God has provided means for subduing every sinful trait, and resisting every temptation, however strong.--The Review and Herald,Dec. 22, 1885. Selected Messages Book 1 (1958), page 82, paragraph 3

Do not settle down in Satan's easy chair, and say that there is no use, you cannot cease to sin, that there is no power in you to overcome. There is no power in you apart from Christ, but it is your privilege to have Christ abiding in your heart by faith, and He can overcome sin in you, when you cooperate with His efforts. . . . You may be living epistles, known and read of all men. You are not to be a dead letter, but a living one, testifying to the world that Jesus is able to save. Our High Calling (1961), page 76, paragraph 5

Now, while our great High Priest is making the atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ. Not even by a thought could our Saviour be brought to yield to the power of temptation. Satan finds in human hearts some point where he can gain a foothold; some sinful desire is cherished, by means of which his temptations assert their power. But Christ declared of Himself: "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me." John 14:30. Satan could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain the victory. He had kept His Father's commandments, and there was no sin in Him that Satan could use to his advantage. This is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in the time of trouble.

It is in this life that we are to separate sin from us, through faith in the atoning blood of Christ. Our precious Saviour invites us to join ourselves to Him, to unite our weakness to His strength, our ignorance to His wisdom, our unworthiness to His merits. God's providence is the school in which we are to learn the meekness and lowliness of Jesus. The Lord is ever setting before us, not the way we would choose, which seems easier and pleasanter to us, but the true aims of life. It rests with us to co-operate with the agencies which Heaven employs in the work of conforming our characters to the divine model. None can neglect or defer this work but at the most fearful peril to their souls. GC 623

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne." We can overcome. Yes; fully, entirely. Jesus died to make a way of escape for us, that we might overcome every evil temper, every sin, every temptation, and sit down at last with Him. Testimonies For The Church Volume One (1855-1868), page 144, paragraph 2

[John317]

Quote:

"Those who believe on Christ and obey His commandments are not under bondage to God's law; for to those who believe and obey, His law is not a law of bondage, but of liberty. Everyone who believes on Christ, everyone who relies on the keeping power of a risen Saviour that has suffered the penalty pronounced upon the transgressor, everyone who resists temptation and in the midst of evil copies the pattern given in the Christ life, will through faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ become a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. Everyone who by faith obeys God's commandments will reach the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression". In Heavenly Places (1967), page 146, paragraph 5

Of the Spirit Jesus said, "He shall glorify Me." The Saviour came to glorify the Father by the demonstration of His love; so the Spirit was to glorify Christ by revealing His grace to the world. The very image of God is to be reproduced in humanity. The honor of God, the honor of Christ, is involved in the perfection of the character of His people. The Desire of Ages (1898), page 671, paragraph 3

All the humiliation which Christ endured was in behalf of the fallen race, that man might have the mind of Christ. Christ revealed to the world the love of God for fallen man and the perfect love which he bore his Father. And in humanity this same love is to be revealed. In the fallen race the very image of God is to be reflected. The cold heart is to be quickened and glow with divine love. It is to beat in unison with the heart of the Redeemer. The honor of Christ must stand complete in the perfection of the character of his chosen people. He desires that they shall represent his character to the world. In the work of redemption, in the sufferings which Christ was called upon to endure, you are to co-operate with him, that you may be complete in him. In being united to him by faith, believing and receiving him, you become part of himself. Your character is his glory revealed in you. Then, when you shall appear in his presence, you will find the benediction awaiting you, "Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things; I will make thee ruler over the many things; enter thou into the joy of thy Lord." The Signs of the Times , November 25, 1897, paragraph 11

Some of the problems that cause confusion when we discuss this subject are that we misunderstand Ellen White's definition of "sinlessness" and "perfection." She's not talking about absolute perfection or lack of sinful nature. She's talking about people no longer rebelling but using the Holy Spirit to resist every known sin.

[Woody]

Quote:

But after probation ends, those who will be translated won't commit deliberate, known sins. To that extent, their characters will be sinless, because they will not choose to sin. Through the Holy Spirit, believers may be empowered to resist every temptation to commit sin.

I sure see a lot of double speak ....