Regarding 100%

[He is risen!]

I think pastor Bachelor summed up Christian perfection in the best manner I have heard. He said that Christian perfection is loving God so much, we would never do anything knowingly to hurt Him. If we focus on a goal of a being certain percent sinless we are actually in part trying to be saved by the works of the Law without realizing it. The goal is to be 100% in love with God not to be just 100% obedient. Is obedience important? Of course. Is it possible to live without iniquity (cherished sins) Yes! The Bible is very clear. Is obedience worthless if it doesn't stem out of our love for God? Definitely, the Bible is very clear about this too!

[Robert]

He said that Christian perfection is loving God so much, we would never do anything knowingly to hurt Him.

Actually this is backwards. God doesn't give believers' "agape" so that they can love Him back. That would make God selfish and egocentric.

Loving God is expressed in faith. He is our source of agape, but that love is given so that it can go out to our neighbors.

Rob

[He is risen!]

Quote:

Deu 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,

Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live

Mat 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.

Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

1Jn 4:21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Our first and most important duty as Christians is to love God with our whole heart and being. You cannot love your brother without loving God with your whole being. God does not expect a one sided love from us. In fact God took the first step in love.

Quote:

1Jn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

I especially like verse 8 of Romans God exhibited His love toward us by sending Christ to bear our sins while we were still at enmity with God. What amazing love!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: He is risen!

He said that Christian perfection is loving God so much, we would never do anything knowingly to hurt Him.

Actually this is backwards. God doesn't give believers' "agape" so that they can love Him back. That would make God selfish and egocentric.

Quote:

Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?

Jesus replied:"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." This is the first and greatest commandment." Mt22:36,37 NIV

We love Him because He first loved us. 1 Jn 4:19 NKJ

Quote:

Loving God is expressed in faith. He is our source of agape, but that love is given so that it can go out to our neighbors.

Rob

[Robert]

Our first and most important duty as Christians is to love God...

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: He is risen!

Our first and most important duty as Christians is to love God...

Again, love means faith. He is the source of agape. If He gives you agape so that you will love Him back then God is egocentric. God gives to everyman a measure of faith. That's our response to God.

Quote:

1 Jn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Bingo! That's human love...that's conditional love...that's we can't love God appropriately and hence the importance of faith.

"We agapao Him because He first agapao us."

Quote:

God didn't wait to love us. He loved us from the moment Adam fell. His love is not based on our looks, our intelligence, our good works, or how much we profess Him. He loves us with an everlasting love.[

He loved us even before Adam fell.

[Robert]

"We agapao Him because He first agapao us."

Hey Doc....Go back to school and throw your useless degrees away. Get some common sense in your head.

You can't love without God's agape, period! All you can do is sin. Loving others for self-centered reasons is self-love/iniquity. Therefore you can't even begin to love until God is in your life and you have matured.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

"We agapao Him because He first agapao us."

Hey Doc....Go back to school and throw your useless degrees away. Get some common sense in your head.

You can't love without God's agape, period! All you can do is sin. Loving others for self-centered reasons is self-love/iniquity. Therefore you can't even begin to love until God is in your life and you have matured.

Bongo! You've just proved the Apostle John's point! You can't have agape love unless God puts it in the natural heart first!

[Robert]

1 John 3:23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

Did you get that?

Faith is our love response to God. Faith is belief in God. He is the source of our lives. He is the source of our righteousness. He is the source of our agape.

In return we begin to mature and that love doesn't go back to God, but instead it goes out to our neighbors.

Rob

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

And what is agape love? Paul makes it clear: Agape love is NOT committing adultery against your neighbor.....

Agape love also is not self-seeking, but I don't see the lack of this in your life! So no, you aren't fulfilling the law.

Since we've never met and know me that well, looks like you've added omniscience to your resume.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Agape love also is not self-seeking' date=' but I don't see the lack of this in your life! So no, you aren't fulfilling the law.[/quote']

Since we've never met and know me that well, looks like you've added omniscience to your resume.

No, all I have to do is read my Bible.

[Lineman]

I think pastor Bachelor summed up Christian perfection in the best manner I have heard. He said that Christian perfection is loving God so much, we would never do anything knowingly to hurt Him. If we focus on a goal of a being certain percent sinless we are actually in part trying to be saved by the works of the Law without realizing it. The goal is to be 100% in love with God not to be just 100% obedient. Is obedience important? Of course. Is it possible to live without iniquity (cherished sins) Yes! The Bible is very clear. Is obedience worthless if it doesn't stem out of our love for God? Definitely, the Bible is very clear about this too!

I believe that Pastor Bachelor is right. Loving God so much that we would never knowingly do anything to hurt Him is actually impossible unless He gives us this kind of love. Remember that we can do NOTHING without Him, including loving Him. Otherwise we can be seen as becoming perfect on our own.

Why do we need God so much? Because we cannot do anything without Him. 100% of our commitment comes from Him giving us that kind of commitment. God wanting us to love Him is not egocentric, but is actually God wanting the best for us. When we love God our focus is off of us and focused the highest it can be which will make us the happiest we can be. That in turn makes God happy, but the point is that our focus is where it should be.

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Here is an actual event that I have been thinking about for some time now:

I have a co-worker who lost his brother this last summer. The brother died trying to save someone who had fallen into a ceptic tank.

At the funeral the preacher used the Bible text that says those who give their life for another has true love. My co-worker says that his brother was not that kind of person.

So what was it? Evidently he did not believe or act as a Christian is expected to do. Did he "love" as one should? He was not sinless, will he be in heaven?

[Gerr]

Quote:

color:blue]

Since we've never met and know me that well, looks like you've added omniscience to your resume.

No, all I have to do is read my Bible.

I don't know what Bible you are reading, but mine says:

Quote:

[color:red]

Jesus declared, “I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.a”

The Holy Bible : New International Version. 1996, c1984 (electronic ed.) (Jn 3:3). Grand Rapids: Zondervan.

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 1

The Holy Bible : New International Version. 1996, c1984 (electronic ed.) (2 Co 5:17-18). Grand Rapids: Zondervan.

You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

The Holy Bible : New International Version. 1996, c1984 (electronic ed.) (Eph 4:22-24). Grand Rapids: Zondervan.

11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

15 These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

The Holy Bible : New International Version. 1996, c1984 (electronic ed.) (Tit 2:11-15). Grand Rapids: Zondervan.

[Robert]

No, all I have to do is read my Bible.

"Love is not self-seeking" 1 Cor 13:5

"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (His love)" Romans 3:23

Rob

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Robert

No, all I have to do is read my Bible.

"Love is not self-seeking" 1 Cor 13:5

"All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (His love)" Romans 3:23

Rob

And this verse you quote is supposed to negate what Jesus said and the rest of what Paul wrote?

[color:blue]

Yeah, all have sinned and fall short. That's why we need and have a Savior. A Savior who will:

Quote:

[color:red] will save his people from their sins. Mt. 1:21 ESV

The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (1 Jn 3:8-10). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

You have been pounding people with the most extreme interpretation of what Paul wrote. Here are other translations that elaborates on what Paul meant with your quote.

Quote:

It does not insist on its own way. ESV

It does not insist on its own way; RSV

It does not demand its own way. NLT

is not selfish - NCV

It does not insist on its own way - NRSV

it is not self-serving, The NET Bible

While it's true that there is too much of self in everything we do, there is a world of difference between a person living for self and the believer who is living for God and striving by grace not to live for self. One is living in sin and following the dictates of lord sin. One is living for God, in submission to God. One falls short deliberately; the other falls short not intentionally but because he still lives in an imperfect body. Grace recognizes this limitation, and accepts the love from the heart as fulfillment of the law although it doesn't measure up to the love of God.

The bench-mark of all the law and all that the prophets or apostles said according the Lord himself is:

Quote:

12 “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Mt 7:12). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

5 And one of them,a lawyer, asked him a question to test him. 36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37 And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. 38 This is the great and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets.”

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Mt 22:35-40). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

To go beyond that is going beyond what God requires. So if you think that what God requires is to give everything you own to your neighbor, then go ahead and do it. We can read the Word for ourselves and don't need your "help".