There's no condemnation for those struggling with sin!

[Robert]

Don't believe these folks who tell you that every time you sin you become lost. That's yo-yo salvation. The truth is found in Romans chapters 7 & 8.

Now "yes" our aim should be the experience of Romans 8, but the fact is we have besetting sins in our lives. Therefore it is extremely important that we understand, even though we do experience the man of Roman's 7 situation, that “in Christ” we can have the assurance of salvation.

[Gerr]

There is no condemnation for those who struggle with sin, for our Savior has guaranteed victory. There is condemnation, however, for those who live IN sin.

[Woody]

We all live in sin. Praise God we have a Saviour who will forgive all of your sins. Good post Robert.

[Gerr]

We all live in sin. Praise God we have a Saviour who will forgive all of your sins. Good post Robert.

WE? A SAVIOR? From what? What kind of a Savior do you have that leaves you living in sin? Powerless blood to cleanse from sin? How does Romans 6 read to you?

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[color:red]What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin STILL LIVE IN IT?

[Bravus]

Oh boys, give it a rest already! Everyone knows everyone's positions, and that they're intractable! How many times have we been through all this already?! THIS WEEK!!!

[Woody]

If you don't see any posts from me for the next few hours ... you will know that I am still counting so I can answer the question that Bravus proposes.

[John317]

Don't believe these folks who tell you that every time you sin you become lost. That's yo-yo salvation. The truth is found in Romans chapters 7 & 8.

Now "yes" our aim should be the experience of Romans 8, but the fact is we have besetting sins in our lives...

Neither the Bible nor Ellen White teach that every time you sin you become lost. That's not what Seventh-day Adventists teach.

There's a difference between a "besetting sin" and a deliberately, willfully practiced sin.

Ellen White says this about besetting sins: "Whatever may be man's besetting sin, whatever bitter or baleful passions struggle for the mastery, he may conquer, if he will watch and war against them in the name and strength of Israel's Helper."

Besetting sins are those which threaten to overcome us. Sins that we are deliberately and willfully practicing are already overcoming us. By God's grace, the believer may resist and conquer both kinds of sins.

Chapter Title: Grace Sufficient

This is the work which the Lord proposes to do for all who consecrate themselves to Him. . . . To all who will receive instruction He will impart grace and wisdom. . . . He will reveal to them their defects of character, and bestow upon all who seek His aid, strength to correct their errors. Whatever may be man's besetting sin, whatever bitter or baleful passions struggle for the mastery, he may conquer, if he will watch and war against them in the name and strength of Israel's Helper. The children of God should cultivate a keen sensitiveness to sin. . . . It is one of Satan's most successful devices, to lead men to the commission of little sins, to blind the mind to the danger of little indulgences, little digressions from the plainly stated requirements of God. Many who would shrink with horror from some great transgression, are led to look upon sin in little matters as of trifling consequence. But these little sins eat out the life of godliness in the soul. The feet which enter upon a path diverging from the right way are tending toward the broad road that ends in death. God's Amazing Grace (1973), page 242, paragraph 3

[John317]

We all live in sin. Praise God we have a Saviour who will forgive all of your sins. Good post Robert.

That is a misuse of the phrase "live in sin." I hope you are not living in sin. Living in sin is the same as practicing sin. Practiced sins are sins that you do repeatedly because you intend to. No one gets good a playing the violin by chance. They get good at it by practicing it. That is the way with practiced sin. They are sins people do intentionally, deliberately, with planning.

Do you know the difference between a willful crime and an unintentional crime?

Call an attorney and ask him/her to explain it.

He will tell you that there there is a big difference. Both God and human society view them very differently. For instance, David's murder of Bathsheba's husband was 1) willful and deliberate ___________ 2) unintentional ____________ 3) both willful and unintentional _______________

Nathan the prophet gave David a message from God which showed that David's crime was deliberate and willful. God treated it differently than He would have if David's sin had been unintentional.

[Woody]

Ignorance of the Law is not a legal excuse. Willful or nonwillful ... you get the same penalty. In our situation ... all sin is treated as willful because we all have the opportunity to not sin. We have the power available to both know God and to not sin. You willfully choose to not avail yourself to that power and knowledge. You are without excuse.

And yes ... you and I practice sin each and every day. Sometimes we practice so much that we become good at it. Other times ... we avail ourselves to some of the power available to us.

When I sin ... I don't just accidentally sin as you have described. I plan it. I tempt myself and then submit. What I don't do is avail myself to the power and knowledge that God provides. I should. I can. I do at times. But I fail.

[John317]

Ignorance of the Law is not a legal excuse. Willful or nonwillful ... you get the same penalty. In our situation ... all sin is treated as willful because we all have the opportunity to not sin.

If we use "willful" the way you are using it, though, we are liable to confuse people. We're better off using it the way the Bible uses it. No where does the Bible or the Spirit of Prophecy say that all sin is willful.

And no, all sin is not treated as willful. The Bible makes a clear difference, and so does the Spirit of Prophecy, between willful and unintentional sin.

I didn't say that ignorance of the law is a legal excuse. I said every court of law anywhere in the world distinguishes between willful crime and unintentional, accidental crime. I am saying that it is a difference that is common in all societies and is therefore something that you ought to be familiar with. It is not difficult to grasp or understand. Ellen White speaks of the difference.

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We have the power available to both know God and to not sin. You willfully choose to not avail yourself to that power and knowledge. You are without excuse.

Perhaps you do these things, but it is wrong to assume that everyone does the same. Do you believe Ellen White? She said that there were Enochs in her day. Do you believe that Enoch willfully chose to sin and was continuing to do that when he was translated?

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And yes ... you and I practice sin each and every day. Sometimes we practice so much that we become good at it. Other times ... we avail ourselves to some of the power available to us.

Perhaps you are confused about what "practicing sin" means. To practice sin means to be aware of the sin and to keep doing it because one chooses to do it even though one doesn't have to.

Why do you assume that everyone does this?

I read on a post of yours today where you said you believe everyone wants what is right. Now you are saying you believe everyone wants to do evil.

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When I sin ... I don't just accidentally sin as you have described. I plan it. I tempt myself and then submit. What I don't do is avail myself to the power and knowledge that God provides. I should. I can. I do at times. But I fail.

I know about this. I used to do the very same thing. I did that for over 30 years, Redwood. You don't have to keep doing that. That is what we do when we love our sins. I know what that is like, believe me.

But I also know how to break the cycle. It requires that you come to the point where you consider your body as dead to sin-- totally unresponsive-- and see your only real life as hid in Christ. The Holy Spirit alone can open your eyes to see it this way. Human reasoning and the human will never brings anyone to this point.

But that is impossible if you see sin as something that's "no big deal," something that God can forgive so you can keep doing it.

This is really what the sanctuary service teaches us. It teaches us that God is making an end of sin, that God wants to blot out our sins, not only forgive them.

[Woody]

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Do you believe that Enoch willfully chose to sin and was continuing to do that when he was translated?

Yes. I do. I think that Enoch was sinful. But he was perfect in asking for forgiveness and accepting Jesus as his Saviour. He understood the message of Salvation. That is why he was taken.

[Woody]

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I read on a post of yours today where you said you believe everyone wants what is right. Now you are saying you believe everyone wants to do evil.

Where did I say that everyone wants to do evil? No. I have said the opposite. We want to do what is right ... but we do that which is evil. However ... it is also true that we do at times want to do evil. That is why we need a Saviour.

[Woody]

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That is what we do when we love our sins.

I know .... this is the mantra. We just love to go out and sin. Well ... the vast majority of the time ... this is just not true. We are addicted but we hate the sin. However ... we don't hate it enough at times. I will give you that. But in the end ... we come to Jesus and tell Him we are so sorry ... and HE makes it all better.

He tells us ... I don't condemn you ... Go and Sin no more. We kiss Him and say Ahh thanks. We determine not to ever sin again. We say that we want to avail ourselves of the power promised to never sin again.

Then the next day ... we go out and do that sin again.

Praise God not only is He able to keep you from sinning ... but He is able to forgive when you do.

[John317]

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Do you believe that Enoch willfully chose to sin and was continuing to do that when he was translated?

Yes. I do. I think that Enoch was sinful. But he was perfect in asking for forgiveness and accepting Jesus as his Saviour. He understood the message of Salvation. That is why he was taken.

Was Enoch sinful? Of course he had a sinful nature just like anyone else. But that is not the question or the issue. The issue is did his faith in God and in the coming Messiah change him so that he was no longer committing known, deliberate, willful sin?

Do you believe that Enoch was committing willful sin at the time he was translated?

Notice that this is not asking if Enoch had a sinful nature. This is asking about Enoch's choices. Was Enoch choosing sin at the time of his translation? Will those who receive the seal of God and are translated at the Second Coming be choosing to sin deliberately and knowingly after the close of human probation?

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Enoch's life and character, which were so holy that he was translated to heaven without seeing death, represent what the lives and characters of all must be, if, like Enoch, they are to be translated when Christ shall come. His life was what the life of every individual may be if he closely connects with God. We should remember that Enoch was surrounded with influences so depraved that God brought a flood of waters on the world to destroy its inhabitants for their corruption....

When Christ shall come, our vile bodies are to be changed, and made like His glorious body; but the vile character will not be made holy then. The transformation of character must take place before His coming. Our natures must be pure and holy; we must have the mind of Christ, that He may behold with pleasure His image reflected upon our souls. . . . Our High Calling (1961), page 278

Enoch was a marked character. Many look upon his life as something above what the generality of mortals can ever reach. But Enoch's life and character . . . represent what the lives and characters of all must be, if like Enoch, they are subjects to be translated when Christ shall come. His life was what the life of every individual may be if he closely connects with God. We should remember that Enoch was surrounded with influences so depraved that God brought a flood of waters on the world to destroy its inhabitants for their corruption.Conflict and Courage (1970), page 29, paragraph 3

To such communion God is calling us. As was Enoch's, so must be their holiness of character who shall be redeemed from among men at the Lord's second coming. Gospel Workers (1915), page 54, paragraph 2

It is our privilege to stand with the light of heaven upon us. It was thus that Enoch walked with God. It was no easier for Enoch to live a righteous life than it is for us at the present time. The world in his time was no more favorable to growth in grace and holiness than it is now.In Heavenly Places (1967), page 70, paragraph 3

Notice that Enoch lived a "righteous life," which is the opposite of "living in sin." Enoch practiced righteousness. Our prophet says that this is how God's people will live before the Second Coming. That means Enoch habitually did what is right. People who "live in sin" habitually practice sin and wickedness. You claim that everyone in the church "lives in sin" or practices sin and wickedness. Do you believe this?

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Enoch walked with God three hundred years previous to his translation to heaven, and the state of the world was not then more favorable for the perfection of Christian character than it is today. And how did Enoch walk with God? He educated his mind and heart to ever feel that he was in the presence of God, and when in perplexity his prayers would ascend to God to keep him. Last Day Events (1992), page 71, paragraph 1; Chapter Title: Devotional Life of the Remnant; The Example of Enoch

Ellen White says that Enoch had a holy character prior to translation and she says this is what the redeemed will also have at the time of the Lord's second coming. Elsewhere Ellen White calls Enoch "righteous."

This does not mean that Enoch didn't have a sinful nature. It does mean that Enoch did not choose sin. He chose God's will over his own will, and he did this in sinful flesh, with the same nature that you and I have. He did it with the same power that you and I have access to.

[Woody]

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The issue is did his faith in God and in the coming Messiah change him so that he was no longer committing known, deliberate, willful sin?

He continued to sin. Period. But he knew what to do with sin. He was therefore perfect in the eyes of God. Just as the sinful David was perfect and yet continued in sin.

[John317]

Praise God not only is He able to keep you from sinning ... but He is able to forgive when you do.

We do certainly agree on this, Redwood.

[Woody]

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Notice that Enoch lived a "righteous life," which is the opposite of "living in sin." Enoch practiced righteousness.

What some don't realize is that there is much more to righteousness that right living. It is partly that but much more ... it is doing what is right when you sin. And it is knowing about Salvation ... the truth about Salvation and the Gospel message.

Those that have their focus on works miss so much of the Righteousness that is available. You need to focus on the weightier matters.

Coming to Jesus is what is right doing. Those who focus on works ... don't feel their need to come to God. Those with the most sin know the most about Righteousness. They are not filled with themselves ... but have to repeatedly come to Jesus to ask forgiveness. Thus they learn Righteousness or coming to Christ. The best right doing.

Some will say that sinners want and plan to sin. This is usually not true. They plan on how to sin .... yes. But they do not want to do that. They do that which they don't desire.

Then Righteousness come into play ... Right doing is coming to God and asking forgiveness which he lovingly gives.

[Woody]

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Ellen White says that Enoch had a holy character prior to translation and she says this is what the redeemed will also have at the time of the Lord's second coming. Elsewhere Ellen White calls Enoch "righteous."

Praise God. This is so true. We all need Holy Characters. I do agree that this is what we will be given by God. He sets us apart to be used by Him. We are thus "righteous". Coming to God is righteous. And that is what we need to do under all situations.

[Woody]

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This does not mean that Enoch didn't have a sinful nature. It does mean that Enoch did not choose sin. He chose God's will over his own will, and he did this in sinful flesh, with the same nature that you and I have. He did it with the same power that you and I have access to.

What I find difficult talking with you are your editorials. You take so much liberties that it gets weary. It simply would take too much time to address all of the liberties that you take. Exhausting.

Where is CoA when you need him.???

[Sulla]

Didnt we just spend several days talking about this:)

[olger]

It is written in God's Word.

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

[Neil D]

Neil's potporri of thoughts on the struggle with sin-

If created intelligent beings were removed from the universe, we'd have a lonely God who wants relationships.

If we add created beings [and not necessarily 'intelligent' but very smart individuals nevertheless], we'd still have a God who wants relationships.

If we added created beings who rebelled against that God, and a God who created a way of saving those rebelled and loyal beings, we'd still have a God who wants relationships.

If those who rebelled against God roamed the universe, everything that they touched would have spread their rebellion and tainted all of God's creation....but we still have a God who wants relationships...

If our world is percieved in a digital way, and it was by choice that salvation came to us, and we choose to come to him, due to our self preservation, we would NOT necessarily have a God who wanted relationships....instead, we have a God who wants to create and preserve...[Hmmmm...this is a reflection of what Satan wants God to be, selfish, and limited to creating a preserving. But, God, as I understand Him, wants a relationship.]

----------------------------------------------

As I have alluded, we see this world as a digital world...you are either saved or you are not. Some have said that we are being saved [the bible makes clear, that we are saved] ....And while we see the world one way [digitally], there is evidence that the earth is not just this 3 dimensional universe. What if thought were more than just digital? We would still have a God who wants a relationship....

[Robert]

“in Christ” we can have the assurance of salvation.

When Paul states, "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus", what is the immediate context? Let's back up:

Romans 7:15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate....I can will what is right, but I cannot do it. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.... 25 So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

The man of Romans 7 wants to do good (see verse 15). He can "will" to do right, but he can't follow it through. Why?

Note the phrase, "I of myself". He is trying to use his converted will power (the law of my mind) to say "no" to "the law of sin" and he meets with defeat. The solution is "the law of the Spirit".

But the point here is even though this converted man is failing to live the Christian life there is no condemnation because he has accepted his position "in Christ Jesus."

Rob

[Woody]

Thank you Rob. Thank you so much. This is SO important.