If you participate in "the world" you are in Babylon!

[Robert]

Huh? That's right! All you holy Joe’s who think your stuff is all that need a reality check.

You call yourself "God's remnant, commandment keeping people", but I'm here to tell you that as Laodiceans you are highly deceived.

What is Babylon? Is it just false Christianity? No, it’s much larger than this.

[Robert]

What is Babylon? Is it just false Christianity? No, it’s much larger than this.

Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education , commerce, recreation, sports , social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

According to Dan. 4:30, the great city of Babylon was built on the principle of self-love and, therefore, represents a fitting symbol of Satan’s kingdom.

Here's the thing - if you participate in "the world" you are participating in Satan's kingdom for he is "the lord of this world". So technically all of us are in Babylon because we all benefit from Lucifer's system of self.

[Robert]

Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues."

Note the call is not just out of fallen denominations (those who have opposed the true gospel), but out of "the world" in general.

[Neil D]

Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven say: "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues."

Note the call is not just out of fallen denominations (those who have opposed the true gospel), but out of "the world" in general.

[Robert]

Ok, I will bite, Robert. How do you propose to come out of the world when [we] are participating in the world?

I made a slight modification to your question. I know you wouldn't want to be left out. :smile:

I actually didn't offer any advice on how to "come out" of the world. I was merely stating a fact. I started this post the holy Joe's among us. So I was fishing with a "holy Joe" rod & reel and I haven't got any bits yet. Since you aren't one of those fish I threw you back in the water. Don't get wet... :Jesusfish:

[Robert]

...the bible says that as followers of JESUS

we need to be in the world but not of this world.

Where's that verse?

Rob

[Robert]

HEY ROBERT

THE chap and ver you are wanting is

JOHN Chap 17 vers 15--16--17--18

dgrimm60

"They are not of the world, even as I am not of it."

Okay....This is a paradox. In reality of course Christians are worldly, yet by faith they are not "in Christ".

Just as "in Christ" your humanity is perfect, but in yourself you are imperfect. Sinner and saint simultaneously.

Look, I don't "love" the world either. But that's my mindset - not reality. In reality I'm part of the system. Yes, I don't indulge in the world like the unbeliever, yet I am part of the world in someway.

Proof? Okay...let me quote Ellen:

The apostle Paul declares that “all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.” Why is it, then, that persecution seems in a great degree to slumber? The only reason is, that the church has conformed to the world’s standard, and therefore awakens no opposition. The religion which is current in our day is not of the pure and holy character that marked the Christian faith in the days of Christ and His apostles. It is only because of the spirit of compromise with sin [iniquity], because the great truths of the Word of God are so indifferently regarded, because there is so little vital godliness in the church, that Christianity is apparently so popular with the world. Let there be a revival of faith and power of the early church, and the spirit of persecution will be revived, and the fires of persecution will be rekindled. [ChS 159]

Look, if I go to my local SDA church, or Baptist church, I'm not going to find folks stealing, killing, committing adultery openly, etc. BUT...I will find many (if not all) who love the things of this world.

That leads me to my next quote from John:

1 John 2:15 Do not love the world or anything in the world....[What does John mean by "the world"?]

16 For everything in the world--the lusts of sinful man, the lust of his eyes [what he sees he wants] and the boasting of what he has and does--comes not from the Father but from the world.

Pay attention to that last part: "The boasting of what he has and does". This is better known as pride.

Pride in your knowledge, pride in your education, pride in your status in life, pride in your athletic abilities, pride even in spiritual things, etc....

Jack Sequeira says it best:

Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious.

How many SDA love sports? What's the principle behind it? Winning - endeavoring to the greatest - number one. It's build into us by nature.

What about SDA's great educational system? Is there anything wrong with knowledge? No! Then why did Jack mention "education"? Again, what's the primary motive for getting a good education? Isn't it rooted in "self"? Tell me, did you go to college so that you could use that knowledge to serve others? Was your ambition to be "the servant of all"? That's what Christ did with his education, yet in his life He had no personal gain from that education. Why? It's rooted in selfishness.

I could go on and on, but I think you've understand my point.

Rob

[Woody]

That's a very good Ellen White quote Rob. Thanks

[Woody]

HEY ROBERT

IF the JEWISH Leaders had not done business

with the ROMAN they would not have had a temple

to worship in

so were these leaders BABYLON

SEE GOD can work with PAGAN'S just like HE

can with the HIS follower's

we should not limit GOD

dgrimm60

dgrimm60

Good One Dgrimm60

[Robert]

but to say that all S.D.A. members are world people I still say is going to far. JESUS is the judge

I'm not judging. I may be wrong, but I'm not condemning folks because I find myself in Babylon also. I'm not talking about Babylon in the spiritual sense...I'm talking reality.

I too went to college for self-centered reasons. I participate in a market (shopping, working, etc) that is based entirely on Lucifer's principle of self-love. That's all I am saying. This is imperfection. Does EGW back me up? Yes:

Satan has an accurate knowledge of the sins that he has tempted God’s people to commit…. “Are these,” he says, “the people who are to take my place in heaven, and the place of the angels who united with me? They profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another."

[phkrause]

pk

[guibox]

I think Robert's point is that people who say 'Babylon!' usually refer to other churches but they really don't define it properly. They are limiting their thinking and are simply narrow minded.

'Babylon' as defined by many near-cultists in our church don't necessarily apply it simply to 'the world' as much as to other churches and religious organizations. People who throw this word out don't logically think through even what their narrow minded interpretation of 'Babylon' implies, and how much they've limited themselves. People who say this have taken the concept of 'Babylon' meaning 'false doctrine' to apply to nearly everything secular and also to everything religious that is non-Adventist.

Do you participate in soup kitchens? You are associating with Babylon as most are run by other church groups.

Do you share your facilities with other churches? You are associating with Babylon!

Do you attend special programs/concerts at other churches on holidays? You are associating with Babylon!

When we use the term 'They are Babylon!' we are really limiting every association we have with other Christians. It doesn't make sense, nor is it plausible.

We are no better than Jehovah's Witnesses who won't even step foot in another church.

This is cultic thinking.

[Woody]

I think Robert's point is that people who say 'Babylon!' usually refer to other churches but they really don't define it properly. They are limiting their thinking and are simply narrow minded.

'Babylon' as defined by many near-cultists in our church don't necessarily apply it simply to 'the world' as much as to other churches and religious organizations. People who throw this word out don't logically think through even what their narrow minded interpretation of 'Babylon' implies, and how much they've limited themselves. People who say this have taken the concept of 'Babylon' meaning 'false doctrine' to apply to nearly everything secular and also to everything religious that is non-Adventist.

Do you participate in soup kitchens? You are associating with Babylon as most are run by other church groups.

Do you share your facilities with other churches? You are associating with Babylon!

Do you attend special programs/concerts at other churches on holidays? You are associating with Babylon!

When we use the term 'They are Babylon!' we are really limiting every association we have with other Christians. It doesn't make sense, nor is it plausible.

We are no better than Jehovah's Witnesses who won't even step foot in another church.

This is cultic thinking.

Thanks for this post. I can vouch for the truth in what you have said.

We are experiencing this in our church. Some members declare that to rent our facilities would mean giving homage to Babylon since they are Sunday Keepers. The vote at the Church Business meeting was 50 -50 so the pastor had to break the tie. This was needed or our church would have had to fold. The finances are that tight.

But some were so fanatical that they would have closed the church down rather than rent to 'Babylon'. There are some very strange and fanatical people in the denomination.

[Woody]

Quote:

PLUS I had a S.D.A. pastor tell his congregation

that until the Sunday law is past he did not see any

thing wrong with attending a Sunday keeping church once

in awhile.

This is very true. God wants us to worship Him every day ... not just on the Sabbath. So, worship on Sunday is a good thing. I had friends that regularly attended the SDA church on Sabbath and then a Sunday keeping church on Sunday. They were leaders in the church. I see nothing wrong with this. The Sunday keeping church had a great praise band. My son loved it. I didn't attend a lot ... but when I did ... I was blessed.

[Woody]

Quote:

how are we saved it is though JESUS CHRIST

NO CHURCH membership of any church will say any person

but to say that the S.D.A. CHURCH is just as much Babylon

as any other church is not right

I can tell where you are coming from on this but I disagree. If you look at the number of people who will be saved ... I suspect that there will be more non SDAs than there will be SDAs. Ellen White says that the number in the church that will be saved is small. There are wolves in sheep clothing in our church that teach a false doctrine of works. They deceive many. The Lord knows the heart. And I suspect that there are many more good hearts outside the church that preaches truth.

[Woody]

Quote:

“The way to dispel darkness is to admit light. The best way to deal with error is to present truth. It is the revelation of God’s love that makes manifest the deformity and sin of the heart centered in self.” DA 498

Which belief is centered in 'self'?

It is the legalism that holds the most danger in the church because it's focus is on how the individual can 'earn' salvation by himSELF. All we can do is to witness and proclaim the Truth that Jesus did it all for us. WE can't add anything to our saved status.

[Woody]

No doubt our church was chosen to do a work.

But plans do not always work out. And our chosen status does not mean that we are any better than any other church. In the end ... it is what is in our hearts that matter. And sadly ... many in our church are drawn to the idea of self and saving ones self through works.