Hip hop culture materialism

[fccool]

When I first came to the US, that's the first thing that I've noticed and I guess it was somewhat of a culture shock to me. All my teammates could talk about was clothes, cars, gold teeth and money.

I've partly grown up in that culture and I have to admit that to this day I don't understand the preoccupation with pimped out cars, gold teeth and "look at me" blast the car radio attitude.

Is it overcompensation for attention deficit during the childhood days? I'm not trying to say that all blacks do have this behavior, but many of my black friends do... no matter what geographic location I may find them.

I've talked to many about this... even my adventist friends, and ,many say that that's the way they like it. I guess, I'm just trying to understand why.

[Kountzer]

who are you? where are you from? You mention teams and team mates, what sport to you participate in? Give some details. Or are you just another two faced anonymous coward who dumps on other cultures because you are too afraid to say it outside of the virtual world.

Kountzer

[fccool]

Kountzer, what does it matter to you who I am if you don't care about what I think? I find your attitude abrasive and leading to no understanding of real issues at hand. Please explain to me why you find this post cowardly, and why trying to understand other culture is rubs you the wrong way? I think I've revealed enough info on this board for you to know who I am if you really wanted to. You can find that info in my previous posts.

Now, if you want to participate in discussion, please do so without attacking my character. I am seeking understanding... and not hatred. Now I don't understand why you find this topic too much to handle without being abrasive?

[fccool]

I don't think you understand what I'm talking about here at all.

[Kountzer]

When I first came to the US, that's the first thing that I've noticed and I guess it was somewhat of a culture shock to me. All my teammates could talk about was clothes, cars, gold teeth and money.

I've partly grown up in that culture and I have to admit that to this day I don't understand the preoccupation with pimped out cars, gold teeth and "look at me" blast the car radio attitude.

Is it overcompensation for attention deficit during the childhood days? I'm not trying to say that all blacks do have this behavior, but many of my black friends do... no matter what geographic location I may find them.

I've talked to many about this... even my adventist friends, and ,many say that that's the way they like it. I guess, I'm just trying to understand why.

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[fccool]

Please don't change the subject. It's not the gold teeth that I want to focus on, but the culture of self assessed grandeur... culture that shoots people for looking at them the wrong way and not giving them "respect" they deserve.

I grew up in extreme poverty too, yet I don't find the same tendencies in my neighborhoods. So please explain to me what is going on here? I think it has more to do with contained cultural mindset and belief that you are a victim and other people owe things to you.

I think it has more to do with perceived standards of happiness that perpetuate this attitude of greed and rampant materialism expressed in "art" of hip hop. But what are they trying to accomplish by portraying themselves rich and powerful? This is the part that I'm trying to understand.

[Kountzer]

Culture of self accessed granduer? Have you been to the mall lately? any mall, suburban mall, whatever. Go there and all you will see is 'self assessed grandeur. Turn on the local evening news and quite a few if not most of the bank robbers are white. You're still not making sense. Just more bigoted msg board drivel pretending to be conservative sda christianity.

DB

[Kountzer]

here's some fresh 'self accessed grandeur:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6170554.html

[fccool]

Please don't change the subject... once again. I'm not talking about bank robberies, I'm not talking about crime, I'm not talking about consumerism. I'm talking about language and attitude expressed by a particular culture here. I'm not even talk about blacks specifically, but hip-hop culture... and a very specific part of hip-hop culture... as I realize that NOT ALL hip-hop culture is seeking that kind of attention.

You'd have to be lying to yourself if you can find an example of that kind of attitude displayed in any other genere. The rock-n-roll is all about rebellion and self destruction... not self-glorification, country music is about feel good nature and every-day life roots. You will not find analogy of the hip-hop "look at me, I'm rich, I have all the women I want, I hurt my enemy" type of language in any other genre. So, let's not pretend that it's widespread attitude of the entire world.

There are people growing up in much worse conditions, yet there is no such attitude reflected in art and music. So, instead of trying to judge my character... can you explain what do you have against the questions that I pose? I'm not trying to degrade anyone, or say that one is better than other. You will not find me defending bank robbers... but I think that hip-hop culture today has more effects on our youth than any corrupt politician or bank robber ever can. That's why I pose these questions.

[Kountzer]

Please don't change the subject... once again. I'm not talking about bank robberies, I'm not talking about crime, I'm not talking about consumerism. I'm talking about language and attitude expressed by a particular culture here. I'm not even talk about blacks specifically, but hip-hop culture... and a very specific part of hip-hop culture... as I realize that NOT ALL hip-hop culture is seeking that kind of attention.

You'd have to be lying to yourself if you can find an example of that kind of attitude displayed in any other genere. The rock-n-roll is all about rebellion and self destruction... not self-glorification, country music is about feel good nature and every-day life roots. You will not find analogy of the hip-hop "look at me, I'm rich, I have all the women I want, I hurt my enemy" type of language in any other genre. So, let's not pretend that it's widespread attitude of the entire world.

There are people growing up in much worse conditions, yet there is no such attitude reflected in art and music. So, instead of trying to judge my character... can you explain what do you have against the questions that I pose? I'm not trying to degrade anyone, or say that one is better than other. You will not find me defending bank robbers... but I think that hip-hop culture today has more effects on our youth than any corrupt politician or bank robber ever can. That's why I pose these questions.

Whatever dude. your generalizations are off the charts.

[fccool]

Dude, it's not just me who is asking these questions. I can understand why this issue can be offensive to you when you are part of a black church and all, but why are you so offended? If what I'm saying is not true, why not defend your position with some rational response, instead of driving me into the ground and heaven forbid implying that I'm a racist?

You will not find the kind of attitude you find in gangster rap artists... which tends to be the best selling hip-hop artists... you will not find this kind of attitude in masse in any other kind of music. It has nothing to do with race, as I understand that it would be too limiting to brand it as a race issue. But culture is all encompasing and transcends race and countries. And that's why I'm trying to figure out.

Granted that I lived in that culture long enough to say what's up, and I understand why you are so up in arms about it, because this is the reaction I got in my church when asking that question... and people argued from the opposite instead of trying to rationally justify what was actually happening.

So please, don't be offended... but explain to me as a member of that culture (if you are)... do you think that the rap artists I'm talking about have no negative influence on the youth in your church? Let's be honest here.

[Woody]

Kountzer, what does it matter to you who I am if you don't care about what I think? I find your attitude abrasive and leading to no understanding of real issues at hand. Please explain to me why you find this post cowardly, and why trying to understand other culture is rubs you the wrong way? I think I've revealed enough info on this board for you to know who I am if you really wanted to. You can find that info in my previous posts.

Now, if you want to participate in discussion, please do so without attacking my character. I am seeking understanding... and not hatred. Now I don't understand why you find this topic too much to handle without being abrasive?

I agree with you cool ... No need for character assassinations. I can understand your concern over all that wild gold teeth. I think Ellen White would turn over in her grave. Sick man just Sick. How could anyone support all that?

[Doug]

People growing up poor then seeing their peers make a lot of money just by singing or performing. Overcompensation.

[fccool]

Well, actually my concern was not with gold teeth per se, but the attitude that would go behind the certain circles of the hip hop culture that influencing our youth today.

[bygjymbo]

Ivor Meyers has been on 3ABN with his testimony...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4371952196375178310

He has an insiders insight into hip-hop music and culture, and also music in general. Here's his website:

http://www.powerofthelamb.com/

[Bravus]

I dunno - I get the concern, but aiming for success rather than failure, even if it's a conspicuous and loud form of success, might be seen as a positive value.

I think there are a couple of things going on here:

One is just a taste judgement - we can get behind a Rolex but not behind gold teeth, not really on the basis of cost, which is comparable, but just on the basis of our tastes and what we're used to. Hip-hop certainly didn't invent conspicuous consumption, it just packages it in forms that are more alien to us whitebread types.

The second is finding the foe somewhere far away from us. How many posters here are regular hip-hop listeners? One, two? (About as rare as us regular metal listeners, is my guess!) So why is this even an issue for us? What we need to do is look at the media *we* consume for similar themes and issues, rather than point the finger at something that is distant and poorly understood.

Not having a go at you particularly, fccool, and if you want to show where my assumptions are flawed please go ahead. But I think questions about your own musical tastes are appropriate in the context of the second point above.

[Amelia]

I think you are confusing trend with culture. A person or group culture is something that is passed on over generations. Trends are something that come for a time and then fade or morph into something else.

Music has always had a huge impact on the youth. And many trends germinate with music. But they can also grow from TV, movies and books.

What is the difference between a young man sporting a grill vs a young man sporting a tat? Nothing. Each has sought to define themselves in their own way. In terms of dollars? Sorry, dudes and dudettes spend as much on body art as those who go for the bling.

And women of all colors continue to deck themselves with perms, weaves, colors, foils, mani-pedis ad nauseum. Though nail art is a bigger trend than it use to be.

When looking at trends don't be so focused on one that you fail to see all the others.

[jasd]

QR frame:

I don't know whether I'm on the same page with fccool but - I've noticed that tandem the hip-hop culture is the celebration of misogyny, murder, and mayhem - and that's the abbreviated list...

I cannot see how that is good for America and believe that I simply reflect Bill Cosby's observations.

[Amelia]

Actually there is more than one type of rap. Gangsta rap is more like what you have discribed. But there are rappers out there that don't ascribe to the Gangsta mentality.

Check out http://www.christian-hiphop.net/

[Kountzer]

I dunno - I get the concern, but aiming for success rather than failure, even if it's a conspicuous and loud form of success, might be seen as a positive value.

I think there are a couple of things going on here:

One is just a taste judgement - we can get behind a Rolex but not behind gold teeth, not really on the basis of cost, which is comparable, but just on the basis of our tastes and what we're used to. Hip-hop certainly didn't invent conspicuous consumption, it just packages it in forms that are more alien to us whitebread types.

The second is finding the foe somewhere far away from us. How many posters here are regular hip-hop listeners? One, two? (About as rare as us regular metal listeners, is my guess!) So why is this even an issue for us? What we need to do is look at the media *we* consume for similar themes and issues, rather than point the finger at something that is distant and poorly understood.

Not having a go at you particularly, fccool, and if you want to show where my assumptions are flawed please go ahead. But I think questions about your own musical tastes are appropriate in the context of the second point above.

I was going to point this out, but had to go to work. Hip Hop is a none issue here. If you want to deal with that culture take it head on. Besides, young people have been doing wild stuff for 50 years or longer. The beats were doing drugs, and listening to jazz, radical in the 50s. In the 60s they were dropping acid and rioting in the streets. Hip hop is mild compared to that.

America is an ultra materialistic society. America has nascar drivers, owners and fans spending millions of dollars to waste gas on fast cars going round and round in circles. America has 8 and 9 year old kids that have Xboxs, cell phones, laptops, wii, you name it(i know such a child, and she is not the only one out there). America has football, basketball and baseball players making 5 to $20 million a year to play sports, and fans and owners willing to pay whatever to keep those atheletes on their team. The dallas cowboys are getting ready to move into a million dollar, state of the art electronic palace of a stadium, replete with a HD screen that runs the length of the field. America has FBI agents selling secrets to russians, just to keep their bling bling intact, and midwest governors selling or attempting to sell senate seats. America has street corners with 3 and 4 fast food restaurants, and a well stocked supermarket in the background, while across town, or on the other side of the world people are starving. america has supsr slap concrete highways and freeways filled with single occupant cars that are destroying the ozone, while in Europe gas is $6.00 a gallon. America has teen aged girls, from various parts of town, if you catch my drift, who drop off babies at the back door of fire houses and sometimes in trash cans, because they don't want a baby to slow down their lifestyle. America has CEOs being paid multi million dollar bonuses, just to lie and tell the people and stock brokers that everything is all right, when in reality the bottom is falling out of the corporation.

I could add much more to the list. come to think of it I can understand now why some members of the hip hop cultrue practice such opulence in the form of iced out braces, and tricked out cars. They just trying to fit in with the rest of american culture.

DB

[fccool]

Bravus, I would disagree with you on that one. I taught the pre-teen and teen classes in our church and it is certainly seems to be the music of choice for youth... both Adventist and non-adventist.

I've asked for some of their favorite songs and then came back and printed out the lyrics to these songs. They told me that they don't listen to lyrics, but like the beat... but it's a nonsense response. I am myself a music writer and hip-hop in its most popular form without lyrics is just a couple of sampled bars repeating over and over. Some of the printed out lyrics was downright pornographic in nature.

I think we should be talking about this from the pulpits and letting the parents know that their children are listening to these... I think that parents are being naive at times when it comes to external influences on their kids.

While I'm not going to pretend that all of the hip-hop has negative influence, as I did listen to 2pac growing up and I understood what he was talking about, and it really spoke to me... much of his poetry I could at least sympathize with, but I don't find any reality in much of today's rap albums. It's a dreamworld that only exists in the artist's head to compensate for that desire to be rich, famous and noticed.

Don't misinterpret me. I understand hip-hop as a trend and as a music style. As I've said, I am a recording artist myself, and some of my songs... do utilize rap lyrics... which does get attention of some local youth. But when I take them into studio, and they begin to recite some of their favorite lyrics in front of the mic to a beat that I put... I have to turn it off and ask them if they understand what they are saying. There's no redemptive value to it at all. It really saddens me.

I think there is time to express yourself emotionally using music. Just like poetry ... music has it's emotional ups and downs, and as Christians we have to understand and accept it as a part of human expression. My music prefects both ups and downs. Here's a more "Church approved" example . Singing about frustrating experiences is no different than talking about these. Yet, I think there is a distinct difference in motive when it comes to some hip-hop artists. While with someone like 2pac, you had some genuine questions and statements going on, this type of rhetoric is missing in today's hip-hop. It has no genuine contemplation, most of it is not dealing with reality at all IMO.

[fccool]

I was going to point this out, but had to go to work. Hip Hop is a none issue here. .....

America is an ultra materialistic society. America has nascar drivers, owners and fans spending millions of dollars to waste gas on fast cars going round and round in circles. America has 8 and 9 year old kids that have Xboxs, cell phones, laptops, wii, you name it(i know such a child, and she is not the only one out there). America has football, basketball and baseball players making 5 to $20 million a year to play sports, and fans and owners willing to pay whatever to keep those atheletes on their team. The dallas cowboys are getting ready to move into a million dollar, state of the art electronic palace of a stadium, replete with a HD screen that runs the length of the field. America has FBI agents selling secrets to russians, just to keep their bling bling intact, and midwest governors selling or attempting to sell senate seats. America has street corners with 3 and 4 fast food restaurants, and a well stocked supermarket in the background, while across town, or on the other side of the world people are starving. america has supsr slap concrete highways and freeways filled with single occupant cars that are destroying the ozone, while in Europe gas is $6.00 a gallon. America has teen aged girls, from various parts of town, if you catch my drift, who drop off babies at the back door of fire houses and sometimes in trash cans, because they don't want a baby to slow down their lifestyle. America has CEOs being paid multi million dollar bonuses, just to lie and tell the people and stock brokers that everything is all right, when in reality the bottom is falling out of the corporation.

I could add much more to the list. come to think of it I can understand now why some members of the hip hop cultrue practice such opulence in the form of iced out braces, and tricked out cars. They just trying to fit in with the rest of american culture.

DB

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to blame a music trend for all the evils in culture or society. Yet what you are doing is justifying from the opposite. Basically, what you are saying is what all of these rappers are saying...

"We are no better than the above mentioned, so stop picking on us.. I don't see you criticizing other people with worse problems". But it's really a red herring argument.

A white CEO has no influence on poor kids as much as a music or sports icon. And rap artists today capitalize on being shock jocks and playing to primal fears and instincts. Let's get real, I think you and I both know it. You can either contribute something positive to your society and culture, or you can further demoralize the youth by standardizing sets of behaviors and saying that we are no better than you.

As I've said, I don't have problem with the beat, the color, the dress, or even the bling.... but the attitude behind much of it is destroying our youth.

[fccool]

Unrelated, or perhaps related... since the google ad that got plugged into this post based on the content will take you to this link

http://www.cheddasblingblog.com/?t202id=11919&t202kw=club%20mixtape

it's guys like these that give black community bad rep.

[Kountzer]

Rap does not manipulate youth. Rap is the youth. Old rappers are just young rappers that stayed in the game. Rap is mostly by and for the youth. I'm not saying it is a good thing, but it is what it is.

[fccool]

Rap is not the youth. You don't get born rapping, just like you don't get born playing guitar. It's an acquired skill/preference in music. If I did not come to US and lived in Miami... there hardly would be any rap influence in my music. So, "manipulation" is not the word.... "influence" certainly is the word. Anything can influence for better or for worse.