100% Love or 100% Sinless

[Lineman]

I have a co-worker who lost his brother this last summer. The brother died when he jumped into a ceptic tank to save someone who had fallen in. (This is kind of like Jesus did. He jumped into this cesspool of sin and misery where we are leaving His place of glory and safety to save us from sin's results. )

At the funeral the preacher used the Bible text that says those who give their life for another have true love. My co-worker says that his brother was not that kind of person.

So what was it? Evidently he did not believe or act as a Christian is expected to do; he was not sinless. He evidently had love though. Will he be in heaven?

What is God looking for in us? Are we to be 100% sinless to show our love for Him or are we to have 100% love for Him which will eventually make our lives sinless?

Is it possible for us to trust God 100% without loving Him 100%?

[Robert]

He evidently had love though.

You must remember that he didn't intend on dying....He was trying to help!

[aldona]

Surely he must have known that by jumping into a septic tank he would be placing his physical well-being at serious risk.

And even though no doubt this thought flashed into his mind, he jumped in anyway.

The Bible text says "greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." It doesn't even go into the issue of motivation or pre-meditation.

aldona

[Lineman]

Quote:

1 Cor. 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

These verses seem to tell us that fatih is not as important as love! Interesting, love evidently trumps faith.

[Gerr]

The journey to God begins with a spark of faith. Then as one gets to know the One who is the object of faith, grows into love.

[Just*]

Quote:

These verses seem to tell us that fatih is not as important as love! Interesting, love evidently trumps faith.

But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: Heb 11:6

Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith Heb 12:2

the faith which is by him hath Acts 3:16

[Robert]

The Bible text says "greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

aldona

That isn't a complement. What the Bible is stating is that man, at his best, can only love those who love him. Humans can only love a friend.

As far as dying for a friend is concerned, Paul tackles this in Romans 5:7-10

Human love: Very rarely will anyone die for a just man (a fair man), though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die.

God's agape love: 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. .... [that is] 10...when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son....

[Lineman]

Quote:

Romans 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. .... [that is] 10...when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son....

Verse 10 almost makes it seem like every person, good or bad, will be saved. But we know that this is not a correct interpretation of what Paul is trying to say because of what John says in Revelation about the distruction of the wicked.

But back to the original discussion. Someone on another forum brought up the thought that maybe this man did not expect to die, but that maybe he just did not want to appear to be self-centered by anyone else who may have been there and so went in to help based on something other than love. I am not so sure ANYONE would ever jump into that kind of mess reguardless of what others thought, unless he/she cared about whomever was in trouble.

And this is different (or so it seems) than someone who KNOWS he/she will die, but does it anyway, like one who offers to be killed in place of another. Jesus KNEW He would die, this man did not. Is there really a difference?

[Lineman]

Originally Posted By: aldona

The Bible text says "greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."

aldona

That isn't a complement. What the Bible is stating is that man, at his best, can only love those who love him. Humans can only love a friend.

As far as dying for a friend is concerned, Paul tackles this in Romans 5:7-10

Human love: Very rarely will anyone die for a just man (a fair man), though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die.

God's agape love: 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. .... [that is] 10...when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son....

So Robert, are you saying that man's love is not important? I understand what you are saying about "greater love hath no man than this..." meaning something different than what we normally hear, but if a human can NEVER love like God loves (and we know that this is true) we need to understand why human love is important at all.

As we have seen, human love is more important than faith, but why?

[Just*]

John 4:7 for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1 John 4:12 If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us:

1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. Rom 5:5

1 Thessalonians 3:12 And the Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another, and toward all men

Love in Him} and from Him.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

That isn't a complement. What the Bible is stating is that man, at his best, can only love those who love him. Humans can only love a friend.

As far as dying for a friend is concerned, Paul tackles this in Romans 5:7-10

Human love: Very rarely will anyone die for a just man (a fair man), though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die.

God's agape love: 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. .... [that is'] 10...when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son....

So Robert, are you saying that man's love is not important?

Human love is always conditional. As humans, we do not love the unlovely. We love those who love us, who respond to our love. Human love is changeable. It is a love that fluctuates and is unreliable. At its very best, human love is self-seeking. Since we are by nature egocentric, everything we do or think, in and of ourselves, is polluted with self-love or selfishness. Socially, politically, academically, materially, economically, even religiously, we are all slaves to “our own way” [isaiah 53:6; cf. Philippians 2:21].

Read Luke 6:32-36

32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

[Just*]

Quote:

32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them

This latent selfish, but not love.

[Lineman]

My friend's brother probably didn't love the man who had fallen in just as a recipricating action. And obviously he did not care about what he was getting into as much as he cared about someone who needed his help.

Seems like the same kind of love God has for us, and doesn't God want us to be just like Him?